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Thread: Pedophile Ring Investigation by FBI and US Postal Service

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I'm sure that I was in there with people that were adults.
    I am not arguing that. I am saying that none of those adults in the shower with you were authority figures. They were fellow students. That is a huge difference.

    I think it they were actually exercising with up, working out, instead of supervising, nobody would have thought it was improper. We were sweaty and dirty; they we're not.
    Maybe you're right. I disagree however. This subject has been discussed ad nauseum on WS, and I haven't seen any convincing evidence from anyone--either on WS or other forums where this topic has been discussed--that it is normal and proper for coaches/teachers/authority figures to shower with their charges.

    I would not have thought anything about it, with a few qualifications. If it is mid-afternoon, there were other people there, in and out, I wouldn't think anything about it. It's like the YMCA; you have people there of all ages in the shower together. These are basically public showers, or at least open to the guests of people that are supposed to be there.
    I'm a member of my local YMCA. The only people of different ages I see in the shower together (I mean together, as opposed to side by side under adjoining shower heads, which by the way I have actually NEVER seen without a parent present) are obviously mothers and their children who are too young to be in the opposite-sex locker rooms.

    I am becoming really curious about these free-for-all Y's where minor, preteen kids shower alongside grown men with no parent present. OF course I've never been in the men's locker room to witness what occurs there, but I can't imagine it's such a world away from the women's side.


    Rest of original post respectfully snipped
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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche View Post
    I am not arguing that. I am saying that none of those adults in the shower with you were authority figures. They were fellow students. That is a huge difference.

    Maybe you're right. I disagree however. This subject has been discussed ad nauseum on WS, and I haven't seen any convincing evidence from anyone--either on WS or other forums where this topic has been discussed--that it is normal and proper for coaches/teachers/authority figures to shower with their charges.

    Well, in my case, as a 7th grader, that senior would be an authority figure, perhaps as much as Sandusky. Sandusky was not their teacher and coach and tried to be regarded as a friend. They were not calling him "Mr. Sandusky," but "Jerry."


    I'm a member of my local YMCA. The only people of different ages I see in the shower together (I mean together, as opposed to side by side under adjoining shower heads, which by the way I have actually NEVER seen without a parent present) are obviously mothers and their children who are too young to be in the opposite-sex locker rooms.
    Well, we might have a different definition of "in the shower together." I would interpret it as being in the same shower room, under separate shower heads. I think that is what these people all meant. They would see Sandusky with a child under the next shower head; he's under the east head and the child is under the west head.

    I am becoming really curious about these free-for-all Y's where minor, preteen kids shower alongside grown men with no parent present. OF course I've never been in the men's locker room to witness what occurs there, but I can't imagine it's such a world away from the women's side.


    Rest of original post respectfully snipped
    I would not call it a "free-for-all." I know that, at 11, to be in a public shower and have a 55 year old come in next too me, under a different shower head, and shower. Likewise, at 49, if I walked into a public shower and saw an 11 year old boy showering, I wouldn't (at least until this) give it a second thought. Frankly, I might not even notice him.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  5. #53
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    I'll tell you guys up front that I haven't read every post of this thread. But I will tell you that showering with an 11 year old boy shouldn't EVER happen if you are an adult, even a parent. This is appropriate and most every adult I know would back away from this situation.

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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by shefner View Post
    I'll tell you guys up front that I haven't read every post of this thread. But I will tell you that showering with an 11 year old boy shouldn't EVER happen if you are an adult, even a parent. This is appropriate and most every adult I know would back away from this situation.
    Well, when I was 11, it happened, and I didn't and don't consider it inappropriate in a public shower area. Maybe it is just a male thing.

    Touching would be, obviously.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  9. #55
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    http://thelibertyblog.org/2011/06/17...panier-800592/

    I didn't know SPANIER had a commercial pilot license and was using the PSU planes.

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  11. #56
    I hope Spanier wasn't flying a PSU plane in which Sandusky and the rich donor had their alleged tryst with a boy (or was it boys?).

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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by nittanylioness234 View Post
    I hope Spanier wasn't flying a PSU plane in which Sandusky and the rich donor had their alleged tryst with a boy (or was it boys?).
    I wonder if he was flying any place on the weekend of 4/15-4/17/05?


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  15. #58
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    If I were to hazard a guess -- my opinion only of course -- this was always a special service for wealthy alumni and donors. Further, I suspect that this kind of thing is not terribly uncommon. For example:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTitnDgw3Gc"]Tom Brokaw, 1989 "White House Call Boy Scandal" Reagan/Bush White House Pedophile ring - YouTube[/ame]

    Somehow, amazingly, these types of stories keep cropping up and are rarely if ever really investigated.

    I hate to subscribe to conspiracy theories. But in some respects it makes sense. Obviously child prostitution is a very real thing. Equally obvious is that there is a demand for this particular perversion that goes beyond some relatively small number of isolated losers. You don't need to look beyond Hollywood, or advertising, to understand that this particular perversion is more common than most would admit. And those with power and money, well i suspect that they can indulge in whatever they want.

    Look at the Catholic Church scandal. Actually look at the reported numbers. Over FOUR THOUSAND Priests (yes, really!) were accused of taking part in this in the United States alone. To put that into perspective, what that number tells us is that they ALL knew about it. Every priest in America knew exactly what was going on, and none, not one, did anything except continue the cover up. Hell, I would bet good money that it's still going on today. And that's only what the Catholic Church is willing to admit to. How many of these cases were never reported?

    Apparently the numbers are also pretty horrific when you look at the Boy Scout thing. So again, is it then so hard to imagine that these same perversions are not equally enjoyed (yes, I cringed writing that) by those with money and power?

    Again, just spit-balling here. But if I were to GUESS it would be that this college had pretty much anything their donors wanted, on tap and ready to go.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

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  17. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by shefner View Post
    I'll tell you guys up front that I haven't read every post of this thread. But I will tell you that showering with an 11 year old boy shouldn't EVER happen if you are an adult, even a parent. This is appropriate and most every adult I know would back away from this situation.
    When I was a kid this was not uncommon in athletic facilities or pools. However, I certainly never had a coach hop in the shower with me.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

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  19. #60
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    Good background on Spanier and the Neisworth case...

    Down In The Valley V: Spanier’s Culture of Secrecy And Penn State’s Other Ignored Child Sexual Abuse Scandal

    http://jonathanturley.org/2012/07/20...abuse-scandal/

    .........What could then cause this breach of faith among the best and brightest in American academe? Historian Theodore White observed that “All endeavors which are directed to a purely worldly end, contain within themselves the seeds of their own corruption.” Here, the seeds of corruption corroding the Penn State football program and the university itself, may have been planted just one year before the infamous Sandusky assault by another allegation of sexual abuse against a PSU educator.......

    Paul McLaughlin, 45, claimed that he had been sexually abused by a prominent PSU professor and two of the prof’s friends. In the call, he pointedly told Spanier that he had a taped confession from the professor. The PSU president wouldn’t hear it – didn’t even want to acknowledge it. “He told me whatever I wanted to get from the school, I wasn’t going to get it, and this was a guy with an impeccable reputation, and unless he was convicted of a crime, they weren’t interested,” McLaughlin said. Spanier told McLaughlin not to bother sending the tape. McLaughlin sent him the tape anyway........

    According to McLaughlin, Neisworth incriminated himself on an audio tape in which the professor allegedly admitted to serving the youth alcohol and engaging in sexual activities. Cecil County, Maryland authorities transcribed the tape and brought charges against Neisworth. Those criminal charges were ultimately dismissed after the tape was deemed inadmissible, but McLaughlin claims he sued Neisworth in civil court and was offered a “six-figure” confidential settlement to resolve the matter. He accepted the offer........

    The disregard for the veracity of McLaughlin’s complaint is bad enough, and the refusal to even hear the alleged taped confession is mind-boggling, but perhaps most incredible is Monk’s analysis of the university’s moral responsibility. Neisworth’s “duties did not involve direct contact with children,” intones the polymath, thus it follows that, in Penn State’s view, no concern need be shown by the university for his contact with children away from the campus. That’s quite an incredible take on a complaint of child sexual abuse. The total disregard for the safety of children who might come into contact with the alleged employee-pedophile is likewise shocking on a professional and human level. It’s also the same approach taken by Spanier, Shultz, Paterno, and Curley, just a year later when they decided that the best option in the face of a credible report of child rape was to tell Sandusky that his youthful “guests” would no longer be welcome in the Lasch Building’s shower stalls.

    What happens away from Penn State stays away from Penn State, or so it was tragically claimed.

    Spanier’s undue concern for secrecy and his desire to control university operations outside of Board scrutiny may have created a situation that even he can’t make disappear. By keeping a blind-fold over the Board, he may have given an opening to victim’s lawyers by allowing them to argue the Board negligently failed to discharge their oversight duties............ That comment hits like blood in the water for lawyers seeking to prove that the Board shirked its legal obligation to oversee the university and its officials thus permitting the abuse to occur through its collective negligence. “This could increase our liability,” a current trustee said, “possibly by millions.”...........

    It was French playwright Victor Hugo who, with the imprint of the bloody French Revolution still seared in the collective mind of his countrymen, declaimed:

    The little people must be sacred to the big ones, and it is from the rights of the weak that the duty of the strong is comprised.
    Some in the palaces of leadership at Penn State — like the Bourbon kings of old — ignored this irremeable law of duty as they had so many other things. They should not be surprised by the magnitude of the reckoning.

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  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nittanylioness234 View Post
    I hope Spanier wasn't flying a PSU plane in which Sandusky and the rich donor had their alleged tryst with a boy (or was it boys?).
    Well, with his belief that deviancy is subject to opinion, makes you wonder what he would do or allow:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/...u/fulltext.pdf

    “We [Spanier and Cole] choose to view deviant behavior simply as behavior that some value and others consider wrong. An individual’s behavior becomes deviant only when others define it as deviant. Much of an individual’s behavior can be viewed as a response to this “labeling.” Mate swapping, then, can be viewed as either deviant or normal behavior, depending on who is viewing it and from what perspective it is being viewed.”

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  23. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    I wonder if he was flying any place on the weekend of 4/15-4/17/05?
    I'll see if I can dig something up.

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  25. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twindad View Post
    I'll see if I can dig something up.

    Paterno was at practice. I found a photo.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

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  27. #64
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    Greg Bucceroni, the gentleman who alleges a link between Sandusky and the Second Mile to Philadelphia pedophile Ed Savitz, will tell his story on Dr. Phil today.
    http://www.centredaily.com/2012/09/2...e-ties-to.html
    "I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him." - Abraham Lincoln

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  29. #65
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    Watching Dr. Phil

    Sara Ganim doesn't believe Bucceroni either:
    "The story keeps evolving and changing," said Sara Ganim, the Pulitzer
    Prize-winning Patriot-News reporter who broke the Sandusky story.
    Ganim said Bucceroni contacted her over the summer with new
    allegations, but couldn't provide details. Bucceroni has since been
    harassing her by email and with vulgar tweets, Ganim said.

    "I asked him for the names of other guys in the pedophile ring, and he
    said he could only remember first names," Ganim said. "Now he can
    remember all these famous pedophiles?"
    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...this_guy_.html

    And here is his earlier version, after the Sandusky scandal broke - look whose name is conspicuously absent:
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ndell/comments

    According to Bucceroni, he was also a mob hitman in his teenage years, who was supposed to kill Mumia Abu-Jamal before Mumia killed Philadelphia officer Daniel Faulkner, but he passed up the opportunity.

    I believe that Bucceroni may very well have been victimized as a young boy, but I fear there is a lot of embellishment in his claims. Whether he believes his stories or not is still up for debate.
    "I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him." - Abraham Lincoln

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  31. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Well, in my case, as a 7th grader, that senior would be an authority figure, perhaps as much as Sandusky. Sandusky was not their teacher and coach and tried to be regarded as a friend. They were not calling him "Mr. Sandusky," but "Jerry."




    Well, we might have a different definition of "in the shower together." I would interpret it as being in the same shower room, under separate shower heads. I think that is what these people all meant. They would see Sandusky with a child under the next shower head; he's under the east head and the child is under the west head.



    I would not call it a "free-for-all." I know that, at 11, to be in a public shower and have a 55 year old come in next too me, under a different shower head, and shower. Likewise, at 49, if I walked into a public shower and saw an 11 year old boy showering, I wouldn't (at least until this) give it a second thought. Frankly, I might not even notice him.

    I've never been in this thread before and I am just appalled that this is going on anywhere.

    You SHOULD give it a second thought if you walk in and there is an 11-year-old boy showering-if you were the subject of a sexual abuse complaint how would you defend yourself?

    There should be no school, no gym, no facility PERIOD having men and boys showering together, even under separate shower heads.
    All posts from me are MY OPINION ONLY

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  33. #67
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    Dr. Phil is interviewing a man who alleges he was part of a child sex prostitution ring - raped, abused and prostituted by Jerry Sandusky and friends. He alleges the older men would take pictures of the children and then trade the "nude" photos like baseball cards with each other. Greg further alleges Jerry told him it was C.O.D. and then had to explain cash on delivery - as he was only 11 at the time. Jerry had to take a "raincheck" with this young man as the other person they were with had to return to Penn State right away.

    Further clarification on this meeting and subsequent meeting. . . They met on a later date and Jerry and other adult friend were exchanging pictures of nude boys -some of them included him. Jerry and Ed Savage - a combo between Napoleon and Gilbert Godfrey . . . . who was very adamant time schedules . . . Ed felt Sandusky had spent too much time with Greg and became upset. Ed Savage had the pictures and started showing them around to other men (at the 2nd Mile building) -it was prearranged which child was to be with which adult. Approx. 4 Pediphile men were there exchanging pics . . . Joe Paterno came to the building and Savage (who has since died of AIDS) and Sandusky became very nervous. They straightened up, took their hands off the children, and their voices became lower in tone. Greg alleges once they were one on one (Sandusky) very touchy touchy, seductive with him, much different demeanor than while coaching football. Didn' want Paterno to know about the sexual contact. Greg felt like he was the main attraction at a bachelor party, he felt like a hamburger in a room full of hungry men.
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  35. #68
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    Greg alleges when he was 11 he was involved in tri-State prostitution ring with Sandusky, Savage, and elected officials . . . Savage would give him money ($40 for a bike) for oral sex, gave the boys gifts, money, drugs, alcohol for sex. He felt dehumanized. Between 13-16 years old he slept with 50-100 guys. initially it started with Savage offering him gifts for pictures of his penis.

    Greg was a troubled kid running the streets . . . joined South Philly Boys Club. . . Savage was introduced as a Philanthropist . . .(he didn't know what that was at the time). He was raped at age 14 - they would give them prescription drugs to ease the pain . . . blacked out . . . doesn't remember anything until waking up, he had been bathed and his clothes were folded neatly.

    One time at a party of about 30 boys, fight broke out - cops came - Savage alleged Greg tried to rob him, cops came and in 1980 Greg told the detectives Savage had been raping him. Cops called Greg "white trash", lying, said no one would believe him over Savage Greg thought the money was pretty cool - he made about $30K - $40K per year at age 14. He was a prostitute - he was used and he used them.
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    Travis Weaver met Jerry @ summer camp . . .age 10 when Jerry first started molested him . . met him @ 2nd mile . . . idolized Jerry . . . first sexual encounter in Coaches locker room . . . wrestled with Travis, bear hug, after shower went to couch, Jerry rubbed him,blowing his stomach - then oral sex. He would stay @ Jerry's and stayed downstairs . . . Travis cried to self @ night . . .alleges Jerry robbed him of his childhood . . . Dr. Phil praises him for coming forward and saving other boys going thru this . . . always thought it was just him that was being molested until he heard all the other stories. Travis was in 2nd mile summer camp @ swim pool - Jerry threw him around - horseplay. .. . within couple of months after meeting Jerry started molesting Travis. He got to go to Penn State locker rooms and weight rooms with Jerry. Theywere taking shower - Jerrywanted to wrestle around, bear hug, Jerry dried him off, pulled him to couch in coaches locker room, blew on stomach, then oral sex. Travis didn't know what it was . . . Jerry had no fear . . . often late @ night - or early morning when they were there. . . Jerry would act like nothing happened each time episode was over. Dotty stood behind her hubby - Travis will tell us where Dotty was during molestations at the home.
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    When Travis was being abused @ Jerry's house - his wife was in their bedroom . . says how could she not know when your spouse gets up out of bed all hours of the night, disappeared for an hour and then returned . . . often Travis was being molested right across the hall from where Dotty was.

    When Travis was 14 - went out of town w/Jerry - Jerry pinned him on the bed attempting to molest him . . told Jerry no - Jerry threatened Travis that he would have Travis' father fired from Penn State (his Dad's employer at the time). Jerry laughed @ Travis and told him no one would believe him. couple weeks later Travis called his mom - out of state and moved in with his Mom.

    Dr. Phil reiterates a person who was victimized in childhood do not grow up to be abusers - only 1% of the time that happens. Travis' Father considers allowing Jerry to adopt Travis. Travis thought Jerry had stopped this behavior but was shocked when he heard of the charges against Jerry - decided to come forward.
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    Travis said Jerry kept saying I love you . . . Jerry approached Travis' dad and asked if Jerry could adopt Travis . . . Travis had been getting in a little trouble @ school - Travis' Dad thought it might be a good thing for Travis to have a good life.

    Molestation going on for years . . . Greg reported it in 1980 . . . Sandusky has adopted son, Matt, Travis and Matt and Jerry went to the gym together. Matt didn't want Jerry, or Travis near him - he stayed in corner.

    Atty saying Penn State must have known Sandusky was molested children . . . in Travis case 1992-1996. Atty says Penn State knew and allowed it to continue.

    Greg wants to raise awareness . . . crack down on cops, everyone knew and because Savage was part of while millionaire club and the kids were considered "white trash" - and not believed.

    Phil tells parents do not tell your kids to do everything they are told by pastors, teachers, coaches, etc . . . teach kids to trust instincts - ok if you say no - you will not get in trouble - I have your back even if it turns out you were wrong to say no. We will talk about it.
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  43. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by michmi View Post
    I've never been in this thread before and I am just appalled that this is going on anywhere.

    You SHOULD give it a second thought if you walk in and there is an 11-year-old boy showering-if you were the subject of a sexual abuse complaint how would you defend yourself?

    There should be no school, no gym, no facility PERIOD having men and boys showering together, even under separate shower heads.
    When my son was 4 years old I signed him up and paid for swimming at the YMCA because they had swim teams and believed it would be a fun activity to do in the winter. I was SHOCKED when the instructor, a young man, informed me that the boys needed to shower before and after entering & exiting the pool and I could not be present during classes. I took my son and left. I made numerous phone calls complaining about the "policy" that never accomplished anything. To this day I am still sicken at how easily ALL the other parents, of the kids there, handed their children over to a complete stranger that was way too eager IMO to be alone with little boys.


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  45. #73
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    JMO, but I do not believe Dottie is innocent at all.
    She knew, heard and did nothing..............IMO, she is as bad as her husband!
    Kyron, HALEIGH, ADJI & Gabriel NEEDS PRAYERS NOW TO FIND THEM!. Zahra & Jonathan in heaven
    Justice for Hailey!!!!
    No Justice for Caylee Marie..........

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  47. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda7NJ View Post
    When my son was 4 years old I signed him up and paid for swimming at the YMCA because they had swim teams and believed it would be a fun activity to do in the winter. I was SHOCKED when the instructor, a young man, informed me that the boys needed to shower before and after entering & exiting the pool and I could not be present during classes. I took my son and left. I made numerous phone calls complaining about the "policy" that never accomplished anything. To this day I am still sicken at how easily ALL the other parents, of the kids there, handed their children over to a complete stranger that was way too eager IMO to be alone with little boys.

    Well, in all fairness, most parents would, that would choose to use the facility. As I've indicated, it is normal for 11-12 year-olds to be in a locker room naked with adults. I'm fairly sure that my phys ed teacher saw us naked in the locker room, and didn't think anything about it. I wouldn't be too surprised if one of them (who was old enough) actually saw the fathers' of some of my classmates naked when they were in school. I'm also sure he never had any impure thought in life about it.

    Folks, it's common.


    What happened to former Centre County DA Ray Gricar?

  48. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila View Post
    Well, in all fairness, most parents would, that would choose to use the facility. As I've indicated, it is normal for 11-12 year-olds to be in a locker room naked with adults. I'm fairly sure that my phys ed teacher saw us naked in the locker room, and didn't think anything about it. I wouldn't be too surprised if one of them (who was old enough) actually saw the fathers' of some of my classmates naked when they were in school. I'm also sure he never had any impure thought in life about it.

    Folks, it's common.
    Maybe it was common. In this day and age, it's just plain stupid and dangerous, and not just for the children. A false allegation could ruin someone's entire life. Any adult willing to put themselves in such a situation, I have serious concerns about. I believe they are either an idiot or a pedophile...either way...me & mine are steering clear!


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