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Thread: UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, Southeast London, 3 Aug 2012 - #4

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by opalsqueak63 View Post
    Actually, I think you might have something there! There was a media report on 11/8/12 which mentioned that SH had an alias which is actually the name of a specialist martial art. (The one that Bruce Lee designed - I won't name it here) All reference to that has been pulled from the internet now - the only trace that now exists is on another forum.

    Several years ago, I worked with drug-addicted homeless young criminals for a while after they had been released from prison. I was amazed how many of them knew about, and could practice, advanced martial arts.

    It is quite possible to kill somebody very easily and fast if you know what you are doing. If you have had a lot to drink say, and you lost your temper, if you employed certain techniques, you could kill someone without actually meaning to...
    That's intertesting.

    BIB And this is the important bit. Assuming that they can find a cause of death and it goes to trial, it won't matter a jot that it wasn't pre-meditated.

    What it will come down to is whether, at the point in time the accused did whatever he/she did, did they know that it would result in death.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by graceholl View Post
    They should be in sync with your computer/browser times. I see all the times correctly on Twitter. So 3.42am is probably correct GMT time
    I still think it is strange to be twitterering celebrities about Tia being missing.

    Did they go onto Tia's facebook page and contact any of Tia's friends to see if they knew where she was

    If Tia's phone was in NS's house did they try to get it working so they could contact friends on that and see if any messages had been left to indicate where Tia was.

    DN stated that Tia had a friend to stay overnight and they were on the couch together when he left for work. Yet he also stated that as Tia was about to leave she found her phone was not working so borrowed her mothers.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clio View Post
    That's intertesting.

    BIB And this is the important bit. Assuming that they can find a cause of death and it goes to trial, it won't matter a jot that it wasn't pre-meditated.

    What it will come down to is whether, at the point in time the accused did whatever he/she did, did they know that it would result in death.
    Yes!

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigh View Post
    I still think it is strange to be twitterering celebrities about Tia being missing.

    DN stated that Tia had a friend to stay overnight and they were on the couch together when he left for work.
    Skigh -agree with all your points. I wonder if you can recall where you read this bit quoted above? I thought I hadn't missed anything, but I missed this. I also didn't know that DN worked.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by opalsqueak63 View Post
    Skigh -agree with all your points. I wonder if you can recall where you read this bit quoted above? I thought I hadn't missed anything, but I missed this. I also didn't know that DN worked.

    Cheers
    Does this help?

    The builder, 29, said: "We just keep looking for her, keep appealing for her.

    "I haven't slept for four days nor has my girlfriend. Natalie is in bits, absolute bits, how would it feel if it was your girl?

    "I last saw her on Thursday morning when I was going to work. She was with her friend on the couch, her friend stayed the night before.
    From http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/n...motional_plea/

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  10. #106
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    Clio - thanks very much for that.

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  12. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by opalsqueak63 View Post
    Skigh -agree with all your points. I wonder if you can recall where you read this bit quoted above? I thought I hadn't missed anything, but I missed this. I also didn't know that DN worked.

    Cheers
    from Croydon Guardian

    The builder, 29, said: "We just keep looking for her, keep appealing for her.

    "I haven't slept for four days nor has my girlfriend. Natalie is in bits, absolute bits, how would it feel if it was your girl?

    "I last saw her on Thursday morning when I was going to work. She was with her friend on the couch, her friend stayed the night before.

    "I know I'm not her real dad but I've been there since day dot. She's my little girl and I want her back.

    I cannot find article about mobile phone as quite a few articles have been removed. There are articles about it which have previously been quoted on here.

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  14. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaos View Post
    Does anybody know if all Twitter times are in US time? I was going to put the first #findtiasharp tweet from MPS as part of the timeline but it states it was at 3.42am on 4th august but not sure if that's UK time or US time.
    Quote Originally Posted by graceholl View Post
    They should be in sync with your computer/browser times. I see all the times correctly on Twitter. So 3.42am is probably correct GMT time
    So does that fit then?

    TS reported missing about 10pm on Friday 3rd August, Police arrive some time after that, spend some time questioning SH/CS then issue the "missing" tweet at 3:42am on the Saturday morning.

    What's still not clear to me is who actually reported TS missing. I have the feeling that the story is SH/CS went to the fair, followed the 130 bus back to The Lindens then went to NS/DNs house then back to their own house.

    If the 10pm time is correct then my feeling is that the call to the police was probably made from NS's house. So where did the police go I wonder. Directly to the Lindens as that is where TS was last seen I am assuming but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Clio; 08-20-2012 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Typo

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  16. #109
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    Just checked Twitter again and yes that 3.42am timestamp would be UK time...so make of it what you will!

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  18. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clio View Post
    So does that fit then?

    TS reported missing about 10pm on Friday 3rd August, Police arrive some time after that, spend some time questioning SH/CS then issue the "missing" tweet at 3:42am on the Saturday morning.

    What's still not clear to me is who actually reported TS missing. I have the feeling that the story is SH/CS went to the fair, followed the 130 bus back to The Lindens then went to NS/DNs house then back to their own house.

    If the 10pm time is correct then my feeling is that the call to the police was probably made from NS's house. So where did the police go I wonder. Directly to the Lindens as that is where TS was last seen I am assuming but I could be wrong.
    I am not sure from which house Tia was reported missing.
    Did they all drive back to the Lindens and then report her missing or did they report her missing and the police visited them at Merton to take details.

    It is not clear either whether there was anyone at the Linden's waiting to see if Tia returned whilst they visited the fair and then Merton.

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  20. #111
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    "Metropolitan Police ‏@metpoliceuk
    Have you seen Tia Sharp, 12, who went missing in New Addington on 03.08. Call police on 101 ref 12MIS025216."

    This was Sat 4/8/12 at 12.57 pm. First Met police tweet of her disappearance.

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  22. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigh View Post

    It is not clear either whether there was anyone at the Linden's waiting to see if Tia returned whilst they visited the fair and then Merton.
    Another slight discrepancy in SH's story was that she did not have a key, but both he and CS went out looking for her. What if she had just come home a couple of hours late and hadn't been able to get in?

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    Hearts were in mouths in one scare moment this afternoon which saw the police ask Tia's mother, Natalie, to identify a pair of glasses and hair bobbles found behind a cordon in Goldcrest Way.

    But a huge sigh of relief prevailed as the tearful mother confirmed the items did not belong to her daughter.


    I wonder whether Tia's glasses were found with her body.

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  26. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigh View Post
    Hearts were in mouths in one scare moment this afternoon which saw the police ask Tia's mother, Natalie, to identify a pair of glasses and hair bobbles found behind a cordon in Goldcrest Way.

    But a huge sigh of relief prevailed as the tearful mother confirmed the items did not belong to her daughter.


    I wonder whether Tia's glasses were found with her body.
    Source?

    ETA Found it. It is at This is Croydon Today http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...l-7YkKGkBONsVw

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  28. #115
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    Since dogs have stronger senses than humans, I would think that it is safe to assume that they did not miss the body earlier. I really don't think that the police are that stupid too, to have messed up a search. IMO, JMO, the body was not there during the previous searches.
    Why? How? Who? I cannot imagine. Possibly SH made a hole in the wall of the attic way back in 2003 to hide his stashes. Perhaps there were no neighbors then, and being a builder he could sort it out.

    DS is suspiciously quiet, removing almost all traces of himself, bar some photos on PS's fb......

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  30. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Mama View Post
    Since dogs have stronger senses than humans, I would think that it is safe to assume that they did not miss the body earlier. I really don't think that the police are that stupid too, to have messed up a search. IMO, JMO, the body was not their during the previous searches.
    Why? How? Who? I cannot imagine. Possibly SH made a hole in the wall of the attic way back in 2003 to hide his stashes. Perhaps there were no neighbors then, and being a builder he could sort it out.

    DS is suspiciously quiet, removing almost all traces of himself, bar some photos on PS's fb......
    Forgive me if I am being stupid - who is PS?

    I want to agree with you that the body wasn't there prior to its discovery. But for the life of me I can't fathom another theory that stands up against the other facts that we have. Surely if the body hadn't been there police would have made a statement along the lines of "we believe that the body may have only been put in the loft recently" rather than publicly apologising to Tia's mum for "human error"

    I guess one other theory is that the poor girl was not actually dead for the duration of the week...? But again this doesn't make sense in light of what else we know.

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  32. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by graceholl View Post
    Another slight discrepancy in SH's story was that she did not have a key, but both he and CS went out looking for her. What if she had just come home a couple of hours late and hadn't been able to get in?
    If they did ask someone to come and wait in the house I would have thought it would have been included in the story. There is no mention of them going around to neighbours.

    Did they contact Natalie to see if she had returned to Merton when they first became worried .


    No-one would leave the house empty when they were expecting someone to return.You would be hoping that any minute the person would return perhaps witing at the bus stop praying that she would get off,walking around the estate asking other children if they had seen her asking neighbours to help walk around.

    Why not ask a friend to go around both local fairs to check.

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  34. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Mama View Post
    Since dogs have stronger senses than humans, I would think that it is safe to assume that they did not miss the body earlier. I really don't think that the police are that stupid too, to have messed up a search. IMO, JMO, the body was not there during the previous searches.
    Why? How? Who? I cannot imagine. Possibly SH made a hole in the wall of the attic way back in 2003 to hide his stashes. Perhaps there were no neighbors then, and being a builder he could sort it out.

    DS is suspiciously quiet, removing almost all traces of himself, bar some photos on PS's fb......
    You're right about dogs having much better sense of smell. I think I have read on the order of 10000 times better than humans sense of smell.

    I think when people hear 4 searches it sounds really bad, but when you break it down.......

    1st search: Police only search Tia's room (Sat)

    2nd search: Specialist search team search whole house including loft, for 2 hours. Miss body and no mention of using dogs. (Sun)

    3rd "search": Wasn't a search. A body recovery dog was deployed to the house.(Wed)

    4th search: Described by police as a "pre-planned search". Police find body. (Fri)

    IMO, a officer conducting the search on Sunday missed the body when checking the loft. When the body recovery dog went in on Wednesday it indicated which then prompted the now confused police to plan a pre-planned search on Friday.

    I really do think it that simple. *IF* it turns out that the body was moved at some point, I think that would make the police looking even more incompetent with them issuing a immediate apology.
    Mark Twain: "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything"

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  36. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by graceholl View Post
    Forgive me if I am being stupid - who is PS?

    I want to agree with you that the body wasn't there prior to its discovery. But for the life of me I can't fathom another theory that stands up against the other facts that we have. Surely if the body hadn't been there police would have made a statement along the lines of "we believe that the body may have only been put in the loft recently" rather than publicly apologising to Tia's mum for "human error"

    I guess one other theory is that the poor girl was not actually dead for the duration of the week...? But again this doesn't make sense in light of what else we know.
    PS is Paul sharp father of Nalalie and David Sharp.

    I cannot find the article to quote but it was also said that PS was friends with David Niles-it was David who told him Tia was missing-it quoted PS as saing he had been friends for a long time with DN.

    On second thoughts it could be Tia's natural father he was friends with. I will try and find the article
    Last edited by Skigh; 08-20-2012 at 11:46 AM. Reason: another mistake

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  38. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by opalsqueak63 View Post
    Hi all.

    I'm new. It took 6 days to get registered and a lot has happened since then and I have read every one of your posts, but may i share some thoughts that may be useful?

    I want to say first that several years ago my sister went out for a walk with her dog and never came home. After a massive search, she was found dead 8 days later. There was only Mum, Dad me and sis in our family - no other relatives left. From this experience, I would like to say:

    1. The police missing the body in the loft after several searches - this makes no sense at all to me. The police came and searched our house a day after we reported sis missing, and used long thin poles with mirrors on the end with lights on which allowed them to see in dark spaces, round corners and under things. They also had super powerful torches and other kit. Our loft is like the one described in CS/SH's house, and with a thick layer of lagging. If my sister's body were in our house, they would have found it. I think that Tia's body cannot have been there when they searched the previous times.

    2. If the body had been there all that time, there is no way that the smell of decomposition could have been missed when the whole family were upstairs in the house when the criminologist interviewed SH downstairs. I believe some of the family, other than SH/CS were complicit and others must have suspected.

    3. A poster here several days ago said it would be unlikely that the family would be asked to identify a body after such a long time. I had to identify my sister's body after 8 days missing.

    4. I think it very unlikely that a cause or time of death can now be established. If Tia's body had no defence injuries or such could no longer be detected if they did exist, they will be relying on toxicology. Alcohol will still be detectable in the body after that time, and some types of illicit and prescription drugs, if they were taken.

    5. I first took an interest in Tia's case right at the beginning when I saw a tiny story at the bottom of a newspaper website. I felt something was very wrong from the beginning, so being isolated with a viral infection, I got to work finding out about this family on the web, including behaviour and information on their facebook pages and the relationships of this large extended and complicated clan.

    All facebook pages were there for anyone to read the posts. Tia's was there, posts removed, but with 427 friends. I felt that there was dishonesty, because the the way that some of the family presented themselves to the media was contrary to what I knew about them on their FBs. I immediately that felt Tia had been murdered close to home and that she was not missing at all. The tea shirts, the mawkish candle parade "lighting her way home". NO. When a child is missing, for several days after, you don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't sit around smoking fags, you drive around, walk around, you phone everyone you know, you help the police and do everything to get info for them. You follow the police's advice re posters, media etc. If a child has been kidnapped, posters and t-shirts can freak out the kidnapper. You do only what the police tell you. You keep your head together and you focus. Ask anyone whose child has gone missing.

    I don't believe that SH carried this out alone, nor, if he was involved in the death was it premeditated, on his part, to terminate Tia's life. Actually, I believe others were equally or more involved.

    Finally, I have some questions that I can't find an answer to. - On the Thursday night when CS/CH was at work and Tia and SH were home, could SH have popped out for a drink and left Tia there? Could someone have called when he was out? Could some of his mates have come round? Do we know for sure that they were alone there all night?

    Thank you for reading. I have many more thoughts but think I have said enough! You have a great community of people here
    First of all, I want to say that I'm very sorry to read about the loss of your sister, I can't imagine what you and your parents went through.

    Seondly, your post was so interesting - thanks for sharing the info about the police investigation and how you all acted/felt at the time. That has answered a lot of the questions I had about the fact the family were able to function so easily - buy newspapers, pop out to the shops, get their Tshirts etc printed etc. I did think that had that been my child missing, I'd have had to have been drugged up to the eyeballs just to be able to cope from hour to hour. No way would i be able to function, or even want to read a paper.

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  40. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthWillOut View Post
    You're right about dogs having much better sense of smell. I think I have read on the order of 10000 times better than humans sense of smell.

    I think when people hear 4 searches it sounds really bad, but when you break it down.......

    1st search: Police only search Tia's room (Sat)

    2nd search: Specialist search team search whole house including loft, for 2 hours. Miss body and no mention of using dogs. (Sun)3rd "search": Wasn't a search. A body recovery dog was deployed to the house.(Wed)

    4th search: Described by police as a "pre-planned search". Police find body. (Fri)

    IMO, a officer conducting the search on Sunday missed the body when checking the loft. When the body recovery dog went in on Wednesday it indicated which then prompted the now confused police to plan a pre-planned search on Friday.

    I really do think it that simple. *IF* it turns out that the body was moved at some point, I think that would make the police looking even more incompetent with them issuing a immediate apology.
    I still feel Tia's body was not in the loft.I think the police would have looked for unusual shaped packages.They have very powerful search lights.

    SH would know they would have searched the loft (I would image with his drug dealer past he has experienced the police searching the house)

    If he knew the game could be up why did he not go missing as he did on the Friday the full search was scheduled.

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  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by graceholl View Post
    Forgive me if I am being stupid - who is PS?

    I want to agree with you that the body wasn't there prior to its discovery. But for the life of me I can't fathom another theory that stands up against the other facts that we have. Surely if the body hadn't been there police would have made a statement along the lines of "we believe that the body may have only been put in the loft recently" rather than publicly apologising to Tia's mum for "human error"
    I guess one other theory is that the poor girl was not actually dead for the duration of the week...? But again this doesn't make sense in light of what else we know.

    BIB I'm with you on the body being in the loft all along.
    The fact is the police did apologise. Publically and quickly. That's rare.

    And since the body was found in the loft, I have to believe it was there all along. They simply wouldn't apologise in the way they did otherwise IMO.

    Mr Basu explained that the first examination of the property on receiving the report last Friday was not a full search.

    He said mistakes were made on the second search two days later, which took two hours. Mr Basu said the occupiers gave their consent to this search.

    "All parts of the premises were searched including the location where a body was discovered, five days later, on Friday August 10," he said.

    "An early review has been conducted and it is now clear that human error delayed the discovery of the body within the house.

    "We have apologised to Tia's mother that our procedures did not lead to the discovery of the body on this search."

    He said a third visit took place on Wednesday......
    http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-12/s...old-tia-sharp/

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  44. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by opalsqueak63 View Post
    Hi Kaos. How interesting - that had not occurred to me. I wonder if they did the same in NS house as well, and whether they need a warrant to do that....
    At the time, I wondered whether the police would be allowed to sneak in a few bugs whilst doing the dog searches. After all, weren't they done with the family outside of the house? Plenty of time to do that, whilst others are searching. Or maybe one of the "searches" was actually not a search at all, but a bug-planting session.

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  46. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clio View Post
    BIB I'm with you on the body being in the loft all along.
    The fact is the police did apologise. Publically and quickly. That's rare.

    And since the body was found in the loft, I have to believe it was there all along. They simply wouldn't apologise in the way they did otherwise IMO.



    http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-12/s...old-tia-sharp/
    I go along with what opalsueak63 has written reguarding the search of the loft.

    The apology could be diplomatic to stop feelings erupting from the locals or that connecting lofts were not searched.

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  48. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skigh View Post
    I still feel Tia's body was not in the loft.I think the police would have looked for unusual shaped packages.They have very powerful search lights.

    SH would know they would have searched the loft (I would image with his drug dealer past he has experienced the police searching the house)

    If he knew the game could be up why did he not go missing as he did on the Friday the full search was scheduled.
    Like I say, if it does transpire the body was moved, it will make the police's handling of this case look even more incompetent.

    There are so many barriers though for a body move. But only one "simple" mistake by a police searcher to not thoroughly search the loft.

    My biggest question would be why would SH decide to move the body back to his loft after the Sunday search? And how would this be done without anyone noticing something?

    I'm going with Occam's razor until such time we get more details to go on.
    Mark Twain: "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything"

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