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  1. #1
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    Golf club or flashlight or....?

    On FFJ, you'll find the thread under the same name. Very interesting discussions are going on there...Unfortunately, I'm not FFJ member and cannot join these discussions. So, I decided to bring the same discussion to WS with the hope that FFJ members could 'peer review' this post.

    As many of you, for a years I was wondering what could cause such an enormous injury to JBR head: flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, door knob or something else? In recent weeks, a lot of JBR head injury and it's location were discussed and analyzed by cynic and otg. They've done an amazing job with their analysis! We learned a lot from them...and thanks to their effort, it make me start thinking 'outside of the box' for other possibilities.

    Everything started from otg post #17 on FFJ...

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...t=10160&page=2

    Linear: Breaks in the bone that transverse the full thickness of the skull from the outer to inner table, are usually fairly straight and involve no displacement of the bone. The common method of injury is blunt force trauma in which the energy from the blow is transferred over a wide surface area of the skull.

    Depressed: A type of fracture usually resulting from blunt force trauma, such as getting struck with a hammer, rock or getting kicked in the head. These types of fractures, which occur in 11% of severe head injuries, are comminuted fractures in which broken bones are displaced inward. Depressed skull fractures carry a high risk of increased pressure on the brain, or a hemorrhage to the brain, crushing the delicate tissue.

    Compound depressed skull fractures occur when there is a laceration over the fracture, resulting in the internal cranial cavity being in contact with the outside environment increasing the risk of contamination and infection. Complex depressed fractures are those in which the dura mater is torn. Depressed skull fractures may require surgery to lift the bones off the brain if they are placing pressure on it.
    'Getting kicked in the head' got my attention...and I start analysis by looking what kind of injury it could produce.

    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...f-head-injury/

    20% of head injuries in patients attending accident and emergency departments in the UK are the result of an assault, and this often involves blunt force trauma, in the form of a punch and/or kick, to the head/ face.
    Injuries caused by kicking and stamping may result in abrasions which may highlight the pattern of the impacting shoe sole, but if the impact is hard enough to cause a laceration, such patterned injuries may not be evident. These blows are often centred on the head and side of the face/ neck.
    Henn and Lignitz (2004) reviewed the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling', and noted that the head is a 'target of choice'. They found characteristic abrasions, lacerations and intradermal bruises mirroring the pattern of the soles of assailant’s shoes as well as the contour of shoe...
    Here are few NOTES from Henn and Lignitz review of the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling'. To get the full review, you must download the whole file in HTML or PDF format (simply Google 'Henn and Lignitz'):

    'When the head of a victim is kicked, the head can experience a maximum acceleration comparable to that in a frontal car crash at 50 km/h.'

    'Because there is only little fatty tissue and muscles between the skin of the head and the skull, blunt-force trauma often leads to characteristic abrasions of the skin and lacerations...'

    '...sole signs of kicking were present. In some of these cases, the victim fell down after an initial punch and was then kicked by the perpetrator while lying on the ground.'

    ' Arched fracture lines on the skull as a result of kicking'...

    (from one of their AR) 'The findings of considerable importance were detected at the skull. On the right side comminuted fractures of the parietal and temporal bone as well as the lateral parts of the frontal bone were found. Some fracture lines showed a particular ovalshaped arched pattern of 6 to 10 cm in diameter. Other fracture lines reached from this oval-shaped area to the frontal bone. At the base of the skull, fractures of the orbital roof, ethmoidal and right side of the sphenoidal bone were detected. Outcome of autopsy: The injury of the head was caused by kicking with the foot. The ovalshaped fracture lines possibly show the contour of a heel . . . . .'
    ...and it made me think: what about Burke's Hi-Tec boots? What if BR was never changed after FW party? We know BR had Hi-Tec boots. I couldn't find the exect 1996 model but here is the latest kids model. Look at the heavy robber shape front of these boots (don't know how to attach the picture so please use the link to see different styles).

    http://www.rei.com/product/707658/hi...9-001b2166c62d

    Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

    ...be gentle please, don't kick me hard....
    Last edited by OpenMind4U; 08-30-2012 at 02:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    On FFJ, you'll find the thread under the same name. Very interesting discussions are going on there...Unfortunately, I'm not FFJ member and cannot join these discussions. So, I decided to bring the same discussion to WS with the hope that FFJ members could 'peer review' this post.

    As many of you, for a years I was wondering what could cause such an enormous injury to JBR head: flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, door knob or something else? In recent weeks, a lot of JBR head injury and it's location were discussed and analyzed by cynic and otg. They've done an amazing job with their analysis! We learned a lot from them...and thanks to their effort, it make me start thinking 'outside of the box' for other possibilities.

    Everything started from otg post #17 on FFJ...

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...t=10160&page=2



    'Getting kicked in the head' got my attention...and I start analysis by looking what kind of injury it could produce.

    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...f-head-injury/



    Here are few NOTES from Henn and Lignitz review of the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling'. To get the full review, you must download the whole file in HTML or PDF format (simply Google 'Henn and Lignitz'):



    ...and it made me think: what about Burke's Hi-Tec boots? What if BR was never changed after FW party? We know BR had Hi-Tec boots. I couldn't find the exect 1996 model but here is the latest kids model. Look at the heavy robber shape front of these boots (don't know how to attach the picture so please use the link to see different styles).

    http://www.rei.com/product/707658/hi...9-001b2166c62d

    Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

    ...be gentle please, don't kick me hard....
    OpenMind4U,
    cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

    What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

    The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


    .

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?
    That's long been my take on it. Resistance>rage>bash (with golf putter, IMO).

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,
    cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

    What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

    The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


    .
    UKGuy,

    If I understand correctly, cynic and otg made an outstanding job in describing the anatomy of the head injury (location/position) and it's shape (oval shape of depressed fracture)...not the mechanics of it. The 'mechanics' aspect of such a 'blunt trauma' (some forensic experts believe that 'depressed fracture' could be caused by the 'shift' mechanics) is the topic of this discussion. Means, which 'tool' (force, direction) could produce such an injury?...JMO

    In regards of RDI theory, the sequencing of the events (acute injury, head blow and strangulation') is not 100% bullet-proofed. It depends on individual believes in their own RDI scenario.

    In regards of the evidence that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser - sorry, I don't see such an evidence. It's possibility, yes. But not the evidence. JMO

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    [snip]
    Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

    ...be gentle please, don't kick me hard....
    Great post! The round mark on JonBenet's face with what some think might have been an impression of Patsy's ring very well could be the imprint of a boot lace-hook.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Great post! The round mark on JonBenet's face with what some think might have been an impression of Patsy's ring very well could be the imprint of a boot lace-hook.
    You GOT IT!!!!!! Thank you!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    UKGuy,

    If I understand correctly, cynic and otg made an outstanding job in describing the anatomy of the head injury (location/position) and it's shape (oval shape of depressed fracture)...not the mechanics of it. The 'mechanics' aspect of such a 'blunt trauma' (some forensic experts believe that 'depressed fracture' could be caused by the 'shift' mechanics) is the topic of this discussion. Means, which 'tool' (force, direction) could produce such an injury?...JMO

    In regards of RDI theory, the sequencing of the events (acute injury, head blow and strangulation') is not 100% bullet-proofed. It depends on individual believes in their own RDI scenario.

    In regards of the evidence that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser - sorry, I don't see such an evidence. It's possibility, yes. But not the evidence. JMO
    OpenMind4U,
    Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

    I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

    I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

    Something does not add up here.


    .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,
    Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

    I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

    I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

    Something does not add up here.

    .
    No problem, I do respect your opinion. And thank you for reading this thread.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,
    Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

    I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

    I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

    Something does not add up here.


    .

    That's why I've never thought the blow to the head was in response to a scream. It takes too much time compared to putting a hand over the mouth.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,
    cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

    What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

    The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


    .

    As I recall from the cynic/otg thread the positioning would be correct, but why would a whack with a golf club be a response to her moving away? No matter which R you think was the abuser, that R was capable of grabbing her.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.


  11. #11
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    ....as the 'refresher' on the subject of Burke's Hi-Tec boots.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence...-hand-foot.htm

    During the Atlanta 2000 Interviews, a statement was made as FACT that prior to 1996 that Burke Ramsey said he owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots. The boots were apparently were purchases while shopping with his parents in Atlanta, Georgia. During the same interview it was stated that "Fleet Junior also says that he had Hi-Tec shoes." Patsy Ramsey stated she can't remember Burke ever having any shoes or boots with compasses on them. When asked if this interview was the first time she heard Burke said he owned Hi-Tec shoes with compasses and Patsy said yes.
    At the same time, in August 2000, Ramsey tried very hard to find and provide to LE someone else Hi-Tec boots...pointing 'finger' away from BR.

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ram...0/31aside.html

    Among information John and Patsy Ramsey provided to police this month are a pair of Hi-Tec boots obtained by one of the couple's private investigators.

    Colorado Springs private detective Ollie Gray said Wednesday he believes the size 8˝ leather and nylon boots could be the ones that JonBenét's killer wore inside the Ramsey home where the little girl was found dead.

    Gray, who was present during police questioning of the Ramseys this week, said he turned the boots over to police on Aug. 4. He said police asked him questions about the boots in the interviews. Gray said he wants police to compare the soles of the boots to the footprint at the crime scene.

    "There is a good possibility they could match," Gray said.

    Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner said he ordered the boots to be analyzed at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation lab.

    "If you look at them, they look pretty close," he said. "You really can't tell."

    But Beckner said he is waiting for the lab results before he gets too excited about the possible lead. "We've had other boots that looked like they matched as well," he said.

  12. #12
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    I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.
    Because she was face down in her bed?

    I'm not advancing this as a theory, just "free associating" so to speak, based on your question. There is blood on her pillow case, if I recall correctly. I think there was some bleeding from the nose. Couldn't begin to explain a golf club in the bedroom.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,
    Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

    I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

    I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

    Something does not add up here.


    .
    I don't think the head of a golf club (I'm not a golfer so head may not be the correct word but I mean the business end of the club), no matter which angle might have made contact with the head, would have carried enough pressure to split her skull eight inches. That much pressure would have embedded the golf club in her brain.

    I know I am the only monkey in the tree who believes her head struck something rather than something striking her head but OpenMind4U's idea of kicking or stomping with a heavy boot might fit the bill ... I need to think about that for a while.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    That's why I've never thought the blow to the head was in response to a scream. It takes too much time compared to putting a hand over the mouth.
    Especially for such a small person. I often wonder if the scream was Patsy's. It's not always easy to distinguish between a child and and adult scream.

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