Golf club or flashlight or....?

OpenMind4U

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On FFJ, you'll find the thread under the same name. Very interesting discussions are going on there...Unfortunately, I'm not FFJ member and cannot join these discussions. So, I decided to bring the same discussion to WS with the hope that FFJ members could 'peer review' this post.

As many of you, for a years I was wondering what could cause such an enormous injury to JBR head: flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, door knob or something else? In recent weeks, a lot of JBR head injury and it's location were discussed and analyzed by cynic and otg. They've done an amazing job with their analysis! We learned a lot from them...and thanks to their effort, it make me start thinking 'outside of the box' for other possibilities.

Everything started from otg post #17 on FFJ...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10160&page=2

Linear: Breaks in the bone that transverse the full thickness of the skull from the outer to inner table, are usually fairly straight and involve no displacement of the bone. The common method of injury is blunt force trauma in which the energy from the blow is transferred over a wide surface area of the skull.

Depressed: A type of fracture usually resulting from blunt force trauma, such as getting struck with a hammer, rock or getting kicked in the head. These types of fractures, which occur in 11% of severe head injuries, are comminuted fractures in which broken bones are displaced inward. Depressed skull fractures carry a high risk of increased pressure on the brain, or a hemorrhage to the brain, crushing the delicate tissue.

Compound depressed skull fractures occur when there is a laceration over the fracture, resulting in the internal cranial cavity being in contact with the outside environment increasing the risk of contamination and infection. Complex depressed fractures are those in which the dura mater is torn. Depressed skull fractures may require surgery to lift the bones off the brain if they are placing pressure on it.

'Getting kicked in the head' got my attention...and I start analysis by looking what kind of injury it could produce.

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/head-injury/circumstances-of-head-injury/

20% of head injuries in patients attending accident and emergency departments in the UK are the result of an assault, and this often involves blunt force trauma, in the form of a punch and/or kick, to the head/ face.
Injuries caused by kicking and stamping may result in abrasions which may highlight the pattern of the impacting shoe sole, but if the impact is hard enough to cause a laceration, such patterned injuries may not be evident. These blows are often centred on the head and side of the face/ neck.
Henn and Lignitz (2004) reviewed the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling', and noted that the head is a 'target of choice'. They found characteristic abrasions, lacerations and intradermal bruises mirroring the pattern of the soles of assailant’s shoes as well as the contour of shoe...

Here are few NOTES from Henn and Lignitz review of the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling'. To get the full review, you must download the whole file in HTML or PDF format (simply Google 'Henn and Lignitz'):

'When the head of a victim is kicked, the head can experience a maximum acceleration comparable to that in a frontal car crash at 50 km/h.'

'Because there is only little fatty tissue and muscles between the skin of the head and the skull, blunt-force trauma often leads to characteristic abrasions of the skin and lacerations...'

'...sole signs of kicking were present. In some of these cases, the victim fell down after an initial punch and was then kicked by the perpetrator while lying on the ground.'

' Arched fracture lines on the skull as a result of kicking'...

(from one of their AR) 'The findings of considerable importance were detected at the skull. On the right side comminuted fractures of the parietal and temporal bone as well as the lateral parts of the frontal bone were found. Some fracture lines showed a particular ovalshaped arched pattern of 6 to 10 cm in diameter. Other fracture lines reached from this oval-shaped area to the frontal bone. At the base of the skull, fractures of the orbital roof, ethmoidal and right side of the sphenoidal bone were detected. Outcome of autopsy: The injury of the head was caused by kicking with the foot. The ovalshaped fracture lines possibly show the contour of a heel . . . . .'

...and it made me think: what about Burke's Hi-Tec boots? What if BR was never changed after FW party? We know BR had Hi-Tec boots. I couldn't find the exect 1996 model but here is the latest kids model. Look at the heavy robber shape front of these boots (don't know how to attach the picture so please use the link to see different styles).

http://www.rei.com/product/707658/h...ferralID=0fded4c2-f2cc-11e1-b779-001b2166c62d

Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

...be gentle please, don't kick me hard:)....
 
On FFJ, you'll find the thread under the same name. Very interesting discussions are going on there...Unfortunately, I'm not FFJ member and cannot join these discussions. So, I decided to bring the same discussion to WS with the hope that FFJ members could 'peer review' this post.

As many of you, for a years I was wondering what could cause such an enormous injury to JBR head: flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, door knob or something else? In recent weeks, a lot of JBR head injury and it's location were discussed and analyzed by cynic and otg. They've done an amazing job with their analysis! We learned a lot from them...and thanks to their effort, it make me start thinking 'outside of the box' for other possibilities.

Everything started from otg post #17 on FFJ...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10160&page=2



'Getting kicked in the head' got my attention...and I start analysis by looking what kind of injury it could produce.

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/head-injury/circumstances-of-head-injury/



Here are few NOTES from Henn and Lignitz review of the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling'. To get the full review, you must download the whole file in HTML or PDF format (simply Google 'Henn and Lignitz'):



...and it made me think: what about Burke's Hi-Tec boots? What if BR was never changed after FW party? We know BR had Hi-Tec boots. I couldn't find the exect 1996 model but here is the latest kids model. Look at the heavy robber shape front of these boots (don't know how to attach the picture so please use the link to see different styles).

http://www.rei.com/product/707658/h...ferralID=0fded4c2-f2cc-11e1-b779-001b2166c62d

Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

...be gentle please, don't kick me hard:)....

OpenMind4U,
cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


.
 
The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?
That's long been my take on it. Resistance>rage>bash (with golf putter, IMO).
 
OpenMind4U,
cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


.

UKGuy,

If I understand correctly, cynic and otg made an outstanding job in describing the anatomy of the head injury (location/position) and it's shape (oval shape of depressed fracture)...not the mechanics of it. The 'mechanics' aspect of such a 'blunt trauma' (some forensic experts believe that 'depressed fracture' could be caused by the 'shift' mechanics) is the topic of this discussion. Means, which 'tool' (force, direction) could produce such an injury?...JMO

In regards of RDI theory, the sequencing of the events (acute injury, head blow and strangulation') is not 100% bullet-proofed:). It depends on individual believes in their own RDI scenario.

In regards of the evidence that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser - sorry, I don't see such an evidence. It's possibility, yes. But not the evidence. JMO
 
[snip]
Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

...be gentle please, don't kick me hard:)....

Great post! The round mark on JonBenet's face with what some think might have been an impression of Patsy's ring very well could be the imprint of a boot lace-hook. :goodpost:
 
Great post! The round mark on JonBenet's face with what some think might have been an impression of Patsy's ring very well could be the imprint of a boot lace-hook. :goodpost:

You GOT IT!!!!!! Thank you!
 
UKGuy,

If I understand correctly, cynic and otg made an outstanding job in describing the anatomy of the head injury (location/position) and it's shape (oval shape of depressed fracture)...not the mechanics of it. The 'mechanics' aspect of such a 'blunt trauma' (some forensic experts believe that 'depressed fracture' could be caused by the 'shift' mechanics) is the topic of this discussion. Means, which 'tool' (force, direction) could produce such an injury?...JMO

In regards of RDI theory, the sequencing of the events (acute injury, head blow and strangulation') is not 100% bullet-proofed:). It depends on individual believes in their own RDI scenario.

In regards of the evidence that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser - sorry, I don't see such an evidence. It's possibility, yes. But not the evidence. JMO

OpenMind4U,
Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

Something does not add up here.


.
 
OpenMind4U,
Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

Something does not add up here.

.

No problem, I do respect your opinion. And thank you for reading this thread.
 
OpenMind4U,
Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

Something does not add up here.


.


That's why I've never thought the blow to the head was in response to a scream. It takes too much time compared to putting a hand over the mouth.
 
OpenMind4U,
cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


.


As I recall from the cynic/otg thread the positioning would be correct, but why would a whack with a golf club be a response to her moving away? No matter which R you think was the abuser, that R was capable of grabbing her.
 
....as the 'refresher' on the subject of Burke's Hi-Tec boots.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-prints-hand-foot.htm

During the Atlanta 2000 Interviews, a statement was made as FACT that prior to 1996 that Burke Ramsey said he owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots. The boots were apparently were purchases while shopping with his parents in Atlanta, Georgia. During the same interview it was stated that "Fleet Junior also says that he had Hi-Tec shoes." Patsy Ramsey stated she can't remember Burke ever having any shoes or boots with compasses on them. When asked if this interview was the first time she heard Burke said he owned Hi-Tec shoes with compasses and Patsy said yes.

At the same time, in August 2000, Ramsey tried very hard to find and provide to LE someone else Hi-Tec boots...pointing 'finger' away from BR.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/31aside.html

Among information John and Patsy Ramsey provided to police this month are a pair of Hi-Tec boots obtained by one of the couple's private investigators.

Colorado Springs private detective Ollie Gray said Wednesday he believes the size 8½ leather and nylon boots could be the ones that JonBenét's killer wore inside the Ramsey home where the little girl was found dead.

Gray, who was present during police questioning of the Ramseys this week, said he turned the boots over to police on Aug. 4. He said police asked him questions about the boots in the interviews. Gray said he wants police to compare the soles of the boots to the footprint at the crime scene.

"There is a good possibility they could match," Gray said.

Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner said he ordered the boots to be analyzed at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation lab.

"If you look at them, they look pretty close," he said. "You really can't tell."

But Beckner said he is waiting for the lab results before he gets too excited about the possible lead. "We've had other boots that looked like they matched as well," he said.
 
I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.
 
I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.

Because she was face down in her bed?

I'm not advancing this as a theory, just "free associating" so to speak, based on your question. There is blood on her pillow case, if I recall correctly. I think there was some bleeding from the nose. Couldn't begin to explain a golf club in the bedroom.
 
OpenMind4U,
Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

Something does not add up here.


.

I don't think the head of a golf club (I'm not a golfer so head may not be the correct word but I mean the business end of the club), no matter which angle might have made contact with the head, would have carried enough pressure to split her skull eight inches. That much pressure would have embedded the golf club in her brain.

I know I am the only monkey in the tree who believes her head struck something rather than something striking her head but OpenMind4U's idea of kicking or stomping with a heavy boot might fit the bill ... I need to think about that for a while.
 
That's why I've never thought the blow to the head was in response to a scream. It takes too much time compared to putting a hand over the mouth.

Especially for such a small person. I often wonder if the scream was Patsy's. It's not always easy to distinguish between a child and and adult scream.
 
It has probably been discussed but the bedpost at the end of jonbenet's beds look like something a head could slam into. The other side of suffering sample page on amazon talks of pam going back there entering the solid oak door then upstairs and runs her hand across the bedpost. It creeped me out to read besides all the bragging
.
 
Especially for such a small person. I often wonder if the scream was Patsy's. It's not always easy to distinguish between a child and and adult scream.

The neighbor who heard the scream was asked about that very thing- if she was sure it was a child. She replied (a bit indignantly) that she "knew what a child's scream sounded like" and wouldn't have mistaken it for a woman's.
But many people here do wonder if the scream could have been Patsy, discovering what had happened to her daughter.
The time that the scream was said to be heard (around midnight) does correspond to JB's approximate time of death, and so it could work for either scenario. If it was JB's scream in response to whatever penetrated her vagina with enough force to cause her to bleed (followed by the head bash to shut her up), the approximate TOD of midnight to 1 am is in agreement with a midnight scream. By the same token, if Patsy, up and about getting ready for the trip by her own admission, having come upon JB in an unconscious state, may have screamed herself. Either way, I believe a scream WAS heard and it happened right around the time she died.
 
On FFJ, you'll find the thread under the same name. Very interesting discussions are going on there...Unfortunately, I'm not FFJ member and cannot join these discussions. So, I decided to bring the same discussion to WS with the hope that FFJ members could 'peer review' this post.

As many of you, for a years I was wondering what could cause such an enormous injury to JBR head: flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, door knob or something else? In recent weeks, a lot of JBR head injury and it's location were discussed and analyzed by cynic and otg. They've done an amazing job with their analysis! We learned a lot from them...and thanks to their effort, it make me start thinking 'outside of the box' for other possibilities.

Everything started from otg post #17 on FFJ...

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10160&page=2



'Getting kicked in the head' got my attention...and I start analysis by looking what kind of injury it could produce.

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/head-injury/circumstances-of-head-injury/



Here are few NOTES from Henn and Lignitz review of the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling'. To get the full review, you must download the whole file in HTML or PDF format (simply Google 'Henn and Lignitz'):



...and it made me think: what about Burke's Hi-Tec boots? What if BR was never changed after FW party? We know BR had Hi-Tec boots. I couldn't find the exect 1996 model but here is the latest kids model. Look at the heavy robber shape front of these boots (don't know how to attach the picture so please use the link to see different styles).

http://www.rei.com/product/707658/h...ferralID=0fded4c2-f2cc-11e1-b779-001b2166c62d

Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

...be gentle please, don't kick me hard:)....

[
I found this site most interesting on the subject:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-michael-helgoth.htm

What they didn't know was that lab technicians had found not just one but three different unidentified shoe prints in that little room-the main print and two less pronounced impressions that overlapped each other. We considered that a positive development, for how likely would it be that three intruders carried the body into the room? And the possibilities were great that the print was totally unrelated to the murder. Just because something is found at the site of a murder doesn't mean it is part of the crime.

Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000
0122

14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,

15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased

16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on

17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to

18 remember --

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. Maybe this will help your

21 recollection. They were shoes that were

22 purchased while he was shopping with you in

23 Atlanta.

24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

25 as a fact?

0123

1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as

2 a fact.

3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help

4 refresh your recollection as to whether he

5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on

6 them?

7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so

8 many shoes for him.
9 Q. And again, I will provide, I'll

10 say, I'll say this as a fact to you, that,

11 and maybe this will help refresh your

12 recollection, he thought that -- the shoes

13 were special because they had a compass on

14 them, his only exposure for the most part to

15 compasses had been in the plane and he kind

16 of liked the idea of being able to point

17 them different directions. Do you remember

18 him doing that with the shoes?

19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I

20 remember he had a compass thing like a

21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.

22 Q. You don't remember him having

23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on

24 them?

25 MR. WOOD: She will tell you that

0124

1 one more time. Go ahead and tell him, and

2 this will be the third time.

3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Does it

5 jog your memory to know that the shoes with

6 compasses were made by Hi-Tec?

7 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

8 as a fact?

9 MR. LEVIN: Yes. I am stating

10 that as a fact.

11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know

12 that.

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this

14 as a fact. There are two people who have

15 provided us with information, including your

16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the

17 murder of your daughter.

18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that

19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec

20 shoes?

21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase

23 Hi-Tec?

24 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

25 MR. WOOD: When?

0125

1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give

2 you the source. I can tell you that I have

3 that information.

4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told

5 you.

6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to

7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney,

8 you are aware.

9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,

2. 10 there is a difference between you saying that

11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke

12 telling you because Burke has been

13 interviewed by you all December of 1996,

14 January of 1997, June of 1998.

15 Are you saying that it is within

16 those interviews?

17 MR. LEVIN: No.

18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you,

19 he told somebody else you are stating as a

20 fact because I don't think you all have

21 talked to him other than those occasions,

22 have you?

23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't

24 want to get into grand jury information.

25 Okay?

0126

1 MR. WOOD: Okay.

2 MR. KANE: Fair enough?

3 MR. LEVIN: I am sorry, I should

4 have been more direct. I thought you would

5 understand --
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Fleet Junior also

2. 7 says that he had Hi-Tec shoes.

8 A. Okay. Now --

9 Q. Does that jog your memory?

10 A. Is, are you talking like Hi-Tec

11 like --

12 Q. The brand name.

13 A. These are really high tech or the

14 brand name? Did the children understand the

15 difference, or are they --

16 Q. I was talking brand name.

17 A. They knew like a brand name like

18 Nike, whatever?

19 Q. Yes, yes, ma'am.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. That doesn't jog your recollection

22 at all?

23 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Is this the first time

22 that you've heard that Burke says that he

23 had Hi-Tec?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. This is the very first time?

0132

1 A. Yes.


QUOTE=txsvicki;8317049]I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.[/QUOTE]

Does it sound reasonable that perhaps BR was standing on a chair waiting for JB to walk thru a door and hit her from above? Just a question.
As I have read here and on FFJ it is of the opinion that the marks on her back where made from the train track. As for the bruising or abrasions found on her body; these could have been made after she as hit on the head. She was after all still alive at that point in time. JMO
 
I don't think the head of a golf club (I'm not a golfer so head may not be the correct word but I mean the business end of the club), no matter which angle might have made contact with the head, would have carried enough pressure to split her skull eight inches. That much pressure would have embedded the golf club in her brain.

I know I am the only monkey in the tree who believes her head struck something rather than something striking her head but OpenMind4U's idea of kicking or stomping with a heavy boot might fit the bill ... I need to think about that for a while.


I'm another monkey in the tree that thinks, at least possibly, she fell on something. BR is the only one I see hitting her with a golf club, and I don't see the case as BDI. I can't see any reason for JR or PR to use a golf club on her (or a maglite). I especially don't see her being bashed in the head because she screamed or because she was getting away from the perp.

Unfortunately it's another of the many aspects of the case we will likely never know.
 
As I recall from the cynic/otg thread the positioning would be correct, but why would a whack with a golf club be a response to her moving away? No matter which R you think was the abuser, that R was capable of grabbing her.

Chrishope,
Because I see the golf-club as an, at a distance, type of weapon, say distinct from a knife or hammer.

Its just speculation attempting to marry a golf-club up with a head injury.


Where I live there was a case involving two adults, drinking was involved, one spat on the others step-brother and threatened him with a broken bottle, which he later followed up with a threat by phone, to shoot the relatives brother, done during a bout of drinking at a drinking den.

So the relative turned up at the drinking den armed with a golf-club, with which he proceeded to hit the other guy about the head, once knocked unconcious, he was dragged out into the street, to stop him bleeding on the carpet, where he continued his attack by stamping on his head.

A witness heard shouting from the back of the flat and saw the victim He was still lying out cold on the concrete path and the accused was stamping on the victim's head, said the prosecutor.

The victim was left permanently scarred, brain damaged, and facing difficulties for the rest of his life.

The prosecutor said the victim needed a life-saving operation to relieve pressure of bleeding on his brain.

He also suffered fractures to both upper and lower jaw and part of his right ear was torn off.

Reading about this I thought about JonBenet. Similar head injury, person left alive, requiring an operation to remove blood on the brain, etc, e.g. maybe JonBenet could have been saved?

But the stamping on the head resulted in some serious injuries to the jaw and ear. Do we have this with JonBenet?

I've always thought JonBenet's injuries were consistent with some kind of rage attack.

So use of the golf-club followed up with some head/body stamping seems to fit the bill.




.
 

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