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  1. #31
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    Flashlight, golf club. I don't know which it was. But we should keep in mind the reactions of John and Patsy to the flashlight and the golf clubs.

    They claimed the flashlight wasn't theirs. Which would show they wanted no part of it and didn't want it to be associated with them in ownership.

    Then again, John wanted his golf club (and the bag too) to go with him. He didn't want to leave home without it.

    How do these reactions help us decide which weapon was used?

    Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?
    The Hokey Pokey Clinic - A good place to turn yourself around:


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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodie20 View Post
    I've read numerous accounts, ofPR confiding to a friend, that she used a douche, to clean JB, when she soiled herself. This may not be verified, but assuming it's true, it points to a couple of things, IMO. First of all, PR, through her own words, made the connection between JB's soiling, and what IMO, could be the prior vaginal injuries. It appears, again IMO, that the soiling caused her enough anguish, to take drastic measures. And yes, douching a child, is a drastic measure. In 1996, PR would have known that douching was for mature women, and was to be used sparingly. At that time, it was common knowledge that douching wasn't a healthy way to clean. So, for her to tell a friend, raises a red flag, IMO. If the douching was for cleaning purposes only, I would think PR would have kept it private, and between JB and herself. Her telling a friend, IMO, seems like a defensive ploy. If PR knew she was injuring JB, (and she would have known), then her telling a friend might have been a way protecting herself, in case the injuries were ever detected...by having a witness say, 'yes, the douching was for soiling problems, not for punishment or abuse, and nothing but the douch wand was ever inserted'. So, IMO, it's possible that PR, was the one who inflicted the prior sexual abuse. I don't have any idea of how out of hand it got, but it was PR, who made the connection between JB's soiling, and inserting an object into her private area. All moo
    I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO
    The Hokey Pokey Clinic - A good place to turn yourself around:


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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    Flashlight, golf club. I don't know which it was. But we should keep in mind the reactions of John and Patsy to the flashlight and the golf clubs.

    They claimed the flashlight wasn't theirs. Which would show they wanted no part of it and didn't want it to be associated with them in ownership.

    Then again, John wanted his golf club (and the bag too) to go with him. He didn't want to leave home without it.

    How do these reactions help us decide which weapon was used?

    Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?
    Well, we know a flashlight was used, if for no other reason, than to navigate around the house. A neighbor saw the bobbing light, so that alone, is motive for distancing, IMO. Idk what to think about those clubs, but JR wanting them, is shady, to say the least. Did he really want to play golf at a time like this? But, he supposedly told an officer that he had an important meeting he couldn't miss, so who knows, maybe he Did expect to get in a few rounds.


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  7. #34
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    Did meyer believe that jonbenet lived for 90 minutes after the head injury? If he's not one of the experts that believed that then he could have been thinking the head bash, strangulation, and jab happened in quick succession of each other.


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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodie20 View Post
    Well, we know a flashlight was used, if for no other reason, than to navigate around the house. A neighbor saw the bobbing light, so that alone, is motive for distancing, IMO. Idk what to think about those clubs, but JR wanting them, is shady, to say the least. Did he really want to play golf at a time like this? But, he supposedly told an officer that he had an important meeting he couldn't miss, so who knows, maybe he Did expect to get in a few rounds.
    I do hope that BPD has better knowledge/clue which wapon could cause such an injury. We can only speculate based on what we know and our common sense...When I started this thread, it wasn't my goal to disregard golf club, or flushlight, or baseball bat, or any other means. I simply wanted to expand the possibilities by introducing the 'head kicking' as the mechanics of such an injury and discuss if it has any 'common sense' behind.

    IMO, whatever 'tool' was used it shouldn't have the rough hard edge (like golf club has) because if used - it would damage the skin as well, resulting in heavy bleeding (which JBR doesn't have it). So, I always look for some other explanation in which the possible weapon would have the heavy 'round edge', like hammer, knob or baseball bat. IMO, the flashlight is not durable enough and would sustain considarable amount of damages in the process (dent on the metal frame, or broken glass). And of course, it should leave the 'oval'-shape imprint when used.


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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO
    I wonder, though...Dr. Beuf, JB's pediatrician and Ramsey family friend, admitted to treating JB for multiple vaginal infections; treatment for those often includes Betadine douches. I don't know what a pediatric examination for vaginal complaints might involve, but vaginal speculums come in all sizes (the smallest being about the diameter of a little finger); if a speculum had been used on JB, it might have contributed to the displacement of her hymen and vaginal enlargment (as would repeated digital examinations). If douches were subsequently administered, the douchetip would have added to JB's chronic inflammation/vaginal enlargement/hymenal damage. Combined with chronic sexual abuse, that little girl must have been caught in an endless cycle of misery.
    Last edited by Bonnette; 08-31-2012 at 05:27 PM. Reason: addition


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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO
    Seems likely any discarded materials related to this might have been taken into evidence when they went through the house, unless it could have been "gotten rid of" along with some of the others items that were not found which were related to the crime. I think the idea of Patsy using a cleansing douche on JB is a DISTINCT possibility, and would be an absolute match to all the previous internal vaginal trauma that JB displayed.
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?


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  15. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?
    There is a picture of JonBenet's trophies on this website - in which room were they displayed? Judging from the slanted walls, probably on the top floor (in the master bedroom?).

    http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html


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  17. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    Did meyer believe that jonbenet lived for 90 minutes after the head injury? If he's not one of the experts that believed that then he could have been thinking the head bash, strangulation, and jab happened in quick succession of each other.
    Good question! Based on what I know:
    - Cyril Wecht (CW) believes that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying (granted, he doesn't have complete AR);
    - L.Wood has the same believes as CW;
    - In ST/PMPT books, the references were made to head blow first and strangulation second, with not much time between;
    - In Kolar book (a HUGE revelation!), the reference was made to the time between head blow and strangulation from 45 min to almost 2 hours; minimum 90 min...

    But the most important, today, we don't have full AR as well! So, we couldn't intellegently doubt any of the above findings...JMO


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  19. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnette View Post
    I wonder, though...Dr. Beuf, JB's pediatrician and Ramsey family friend, admitted to treating JB for multiple vaginal infections; treatment for those often includes Betadine douches. I don't know what a pediatric examination for vaginal complaints might involve, but vaginal speculums come in all sizes (the smallest being about the diameter of a little finger); if a speculum had been used on JB, it might have contributed to the displacement of her hymen and vaginal enlargment (as would repeated digital examinations). If douches were subsequently administered, the douchetip would have added to JB's chronic inflammation/vaginal enlargement/hymenal damage. Combined with chronic sexual abuse, that little girl must have been caught in an endless cycle of misery.
    So sorry, I wouldn't agree. Hate to discuss this topic but if we would allow to assume that douchetip could cause hymenal damage then we should sue every TAMPON manufacturer for the sexual abuse....


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  21. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    So sorry, I wouldn't agree. Hate to discuss this topic but if we would allow to assume that douchetip could cause hymenal damage then we should sue every TAMPON manufacturer for the sexual abuse....
    I take your point, but a tampon is pliant (even the applicator), whereas a douchetip is molded plastic and could be wielded in a very rough manner.

    The situation I am considering is one in which the pediatrician's exam and treatment might have been additive: speculum and/or digit, douchetip, sexual abuse. A cumulative insult.


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  23. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnette View Post
    I take your point, but a tampon is pliant (even the applicator), whereas a douchetip is molded plastic and could be wielded in a very rough manner.
    Of course, even painbrush could be wielded in very rough manner
    I hear you, I hear you....just doesn't ring the 'common sense' bell......just MO...sorry...


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  25. #43
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    Not to change the subject

    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    There is a picture of JonBenet's trophies on this website - in which room were they displayed? Judging from the slanted walls, probably on the top floor (in the master bedroom?).

    http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html
    But, this has always stuck out to me. Does it look like the Ramsey's even sleep in their bed? Surely PR wouldn't have bothered to make it. She didn't have time. Anybody else notice this in the crime scene photos?


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  27. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnette View Post
    I take your point, but a tampon is pliant (even the applicator), whereas a douchetip is molded plastic and could be wielded in a very rough manner.

    The situation I am considering is one in which the pediatrician's exam and treatment might have been additive: speculum and/or digit, douchetip, sexual abuse. A cumulative insult.
    JB was a six year old girl. Consider the difference in size between an adult female and JB, and it seems very feasible the extended plastic tip of the bottle would reach into the areas where it could have caused damage.
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?


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  29. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    Of course, even painbrush could be wielded in very rough manner
    I hear you, I hear you....just doesn't ring the 'common sense' bell......just MO...sorry...
    There's certainly no need to apologize! We're all speculating here, no one knows what happened and I have great respect for your views. My point is really that everything JBR went through - vaginal examinations (perhaps utilizing a metal speculum), possibly douche treatments for infection, combined with sexual abuse including (but not limited to) the paintbrush - contributed to her vaginal trauma. Identifying the instruments of physical damage or torture might not bring us any closer to knowing who killed her. That's all I mean.


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