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Thread: Golf club or flashlight or....?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO
    Somebody caused prior injuries, that have been related to digital penetration, and I think douching, might be the answer. As for PR being horrified at the thought of insertions, it could be said that she might have felt horror for herself, but not been empathetic towards others. Or, and this is a big if, depending on her mental state, she could have seen something so invasive, as the ultimate punishment. But, regardless of who did what to JB that night, I never doubted the douching claims. IMO, it sounds like something some mothers might do, who suspect sexual abuse...in an attempt to clean away the 'dirty'. And if the claims of JB soiling herself are true, she would have been dirty and germy, and the douching, would have been an effective cleaning method, although an inappropriate one. MOO

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwest mama View Post
    Like you, hate to get so personal about these matters, but some of those tips flange out a bit at the top and are a bit bulbous, making them easily the same size at the very tip as that of a regular size, especially 9 year old boy size, human finger.
    ok, ok, Girls...you successfully 'douched' me out!!!!!!!
    PEACE and LOVE!!!!!

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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    ok, ok, Girls...you successfully 'douched' me out!!!!!!!
    PEACE and LOVE!!!!!
    LOL! Peace and love back atcha!

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  7. #54
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    BR standing on a chair and Hi Tec boots

    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Does it sound reasonable that perhaps BR was standing on a chair waiting for JB to walk thru a door and hit her from above? Just a question.
    As I have read here and on FFJ it is of the opinion that the marks on her back where made from the train track. As for the bruising or abrasions found on her body; these could have been made after she as hit on the head. She was after all still alive at that point in time. JMO
    Flatlander,
    Yes someone could have stamped on her head/body, if it was a rage attack?

    Can you link the Hi-Tec shoes to any injuries on JonBenet, or even match the Hi-Tec shoes to the prints on the floor, then you have a BDI up and running?

    BR could have been standing, but you have to factor in the sexual assault, here I reckon JonBenet was in some weird position and accidentaly fell?


    .[/QUOTE]

    IMOO I do not link any injuries to JB with the Hi Tech shoes/boots. Quite interesting read as follows:
    ST Page 238
    Two pairs of boots that were among the most difficult to retrieve belonged to Detective Sergeant Larry Mason and Detective Linda
    ST Page 239
    Arndt, both of whom had been in the house during the first hours. Arndt's clothing had been collected at the crime scene but not her footwear. It took a direct order from Commander Beckner before Arndt and Mason gave up their boots for testing, about a year after the murder, and it took still longer to get their fingerprints. Mason, the on-scene detective supervisor on December 26, had still not submitted a written report of his actions that day when I left after eighteen months.
    A reserve sheriff's deputy who wore Hi- Tecs at the crime scene retained a lawyer before talking to Detective Gosage. Then we got the name of another patrol sergeant who had been in the basement that day. That was also a year late. At fourteen months, Gosage found that an FBI agent from Denver had been in the basement and owned Hi-Tecs. The final embarrassment in the Hi- Tec hunt came when Detective Gosage compared the radio log for December 26 with other reports and discovered that a number of boot-wearing law enforcement types had also been at the house but had never "aired out," or given their location, on the radio. That meant we never really knew which cops, firefighters, paramedics, and sheriff's deputies were there. It seemed that everybody and their damned brother went wandering through the crime scene that day, and running them down was a virtual impossibility.

    As for BR standing on a chair hidden behind a door and waiting for JB to pass through ..... maybe, just maybe this would explain the chair placed in front of the train room door.
    Sure it could have been part of the staging but it also could have been used as part of the crime.
    And yes, I am positive if JB had been standing when struck in the head she would have fallen to the ground. Possibly on her back or rolled over on top of the train tracks. Just a possibility.
    Just a little note:
    You stated that: BR could have been standing, but you have to factor in the sexual assault, here I reckon JonBenet was in some weird position and accidentaly fell?
    Possibly they had been playing doctor before she got down to the basement. At one time I understood that PR was aware of JB and BR little game and she wanted to seperate them as much as possible. I believe the paint brush was a staging tool before she was strangeled. And I further beleive that PR was the corporal punishment here.

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  9. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwest mama View Post
    Seems likely any discarded materials related to this might have been taken into evidence when they went through the house, unless it could have been "gotten rid of" along with some of the others items that were not found which were related to the crime. I think the idea of Patsy using a cleansing douche on JB is a DISTINCT possibility, and would be an absolute match to all the previous internal vaginal trauma that JB displayed.
    This goes along with my favorite theory so I agree. Some think/thought that evidence was possibly stuffed into JR's golf bag thus the main reason he wanted his clubs.

    Years ago we discussed the possibility Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and pushing, while Patsy forced JonBenet into the bathroom, at which point maybe she was pushed into a doorknob. JonBenet's height at that time and the point of injury exactly matched the height level of a doorknob on a standard door. I can see that causing the depressed injury but I can't see it causing the head split. There had to be a lot of dispersed pressure to split a child's skull like that, especially since the velocity involved wasn't fast enough to break the skin (although her hair may have cushioned the blow).

    I'm not married to any theory except the one that says one or both adult Ramseys know what happened.

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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    Flashlight, golf club. I don't know which it was. But we should keep in mind the reactions of John and Patsy to the flashlight and the golf clubs.

    They claimed the flashlight wasn't theirs. Which would show they wanted no part of it and didn't want it to be associated with them in ownership.

    Then again, John wanted his golf club (and the bag too) to go with him. He didn't want to leave home without it.

    How do these reactions help us decide which weapon was used?

    Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?
    you made a very good point about reactions. If I ever get the time, I'd like to sit down and compare inconsistencies, and non rememberings and see who, if anybody rhey seem to help. It wouldn't point to the killer, but it might help us elliminate somebody. For instance, the differing versions of whose idea it was to call 911. JR, PR, and BR all said it was JR's, but PR later claimed it was her idea. I also read a quote from PR, in their book, where JR said to call, and she asked, 'Are you sure?' And here's another big one I've been thinkiong about. The Rs, steadily contended that BR slept through everything, including the 911. Even after BR was reportedly heard in the tape enhancements, they stuck to their story, and used other failed enhancements to bolster their claims. JR later admitted that BR was awake that morning, but said he didn't realize it, until after BR said so, during the GJ procedings. But, they never admitted to BR being up during the call. BR, said he heard voices, but pretended to sleep. IMO, if the Rs were going to coach BR to lie, they would have coached him to back their story, but he didn't. He told a completely different version, and as far as I can tell, he didn't lie. So, whose voices were on the 911? I'm no enhancemnt expert, but what I heard with my cheap dollar store headphones, didn't sound like 3 voices. I heard 2, including what sounded like a stern male or deep voiced female, and a young female, or a baby voiced boy. Now, this is up to interpretation, but I heard the young voice speak, and then the stern voice ask, 'What did you do, what did you do?' and then the young voice answered with, 'nothing'. In the transcript, the word 'nothing', is attributed to PR saying, 'help me'. That may be PR's voice, but I do not hear her wailing for Jesus, and I don't hear 3 voices. So, was BR telling the truth, and if so, was this a conversation between JR and PR? or was BR talking to JR, as reported? I would guess if the Rs were lying, it would be to either protect BR, or to keep cops from asking what he witnessed or knew...just say he was asleep and knew nothing. But, if this is the case, why didn't BR back their story?

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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    This goes along with my favorite theory so I agree. Some think/thought that evidence was possibly stuffed into JR's golf bag thus the main reason he wanted his clubs.

    Years ago we discussed the possibility Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and pushing, while Patsy forced JonBenet into the bathroom, at which point maybe she was pushed into a doorknob. JonBenet's height at that time and the point of injury exactly matched the height level of a doorknob on a standard door. I can see that causing the depressed injury but I can't see it causing the head split. There had to be a lot of dispersed pressure to split a child's skull like that, especially since the velocity involved wasn't fast enough to break the skin (although her hair may have cushioned the blow).

    I'm not married to any theory except the one that says one or both adult Ramseys know what happened.
    I'm with you, BOESP. I thought door knob would be 'perfect' candidate...but, I'm still searching for the right answer...

    I'm reading and re-reading AR, looking for some kind of hidden clue. On page 7of AR, under 'Skull and Brain', after 'On removal of the skull cap....at the tip of the right temporal lobe is a 1/4" x 1/4" similar appearing purple contusion . Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip of the left temporal lobe.'.....hmmm...

    I have no medical degree/knowledge but the location of the temporal lobe is on the sides of the head! And JBR has these contusions on both sides, visiable after 'removal of the skull cap'.........means (for now!), that these contusions were happened as the result of the blow or she fall and hit her head on both sides? ...puzzle....hope, otg or cynic could have an answer....

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  15. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    I'm another monkey in the tree that thinks, at least possibly, she fell on something. BR is the only one I see hitting her with a golf club, and I don't see the case as BDI. I can't see any reason for JR or PR to use a golf club on her (or a maglite). I especially don't see her being bashed in the head because she screamed or because she was getting away from the perp.
    Count me in as another monkey in the tree that thinks JB got the skull fracture from her head being slammed against something.

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  17. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,
    In a conversation with Steve Thomas, see page 1, Det. Arndt, and other consulting pediatricians. The latter agreed with him. Also in the autopsy report he details the biological evidence.

    Lets put it this way, I do not think Meyer or anyone else is suggesting an acute sexual assault took place after the head injury?
    Kolar's book has cleared up a lot re the time line of the injuries.
    The experts that had been consulted by LE unanimously agreed that the head injury came before the strangulation:
    J. Kolar in his book (p. 64):
    "Necrosis", neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a time of survival ranging between forty five (45) minutes to and two (2) hours.
    As for the acute genital wound that produced the bleeding -
    it was inflicted "perimortem with her death" (p. 66), "very near the actual time of her death" (ibid).

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  19. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Kolar's book has cleared up a lot re the time line of the injuries.
    The experts that had been consulted by LE unanimously agreed that the head injury came before the strangulation:
    As for the acute genital wound that produced the bleeding -
    it was inflicted "perimortem with her death" (p. 66), "very near the actual time of her death" (ibid).
    Agree (see post #28). Now, what do you think 'acute injury' is part of the 'staging' or not? And before you'll answer, let's read definition of 'acute injury': 'An acute injury is an injury that occurred recently as a result of a traumatic event'.

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  21. #61
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    Could something fairly heavy have fallen off a high shelf onto jonbenet's head? So, kolar and experts establish that the headwound came first, she lay there, then the strangulation and jab most likely planned and done immediately one after the other. I think the jab was last and wonder what kolar thinks. Also, i will never believe that any adult thought jonbenet was already dead of the head wound.

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  23. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    Could something fairly heavy have fallen off a high shelf onto jonbenet's head?
    IMO, I don't think so...the 'depressed fracture' (the oval-shaped hole on her scull) is located on the back...'otg' and 'cynic' made the superb analysis/explanation about it's location. Highly recommend to read their analysis on FFJ.

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  25. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    I'm with you, BOESP. I thought door knob would be 'perfect' candidate...but, I'm still searching for the right answer...

    I'm reading and re-reading AR, looking for some kind of hidden clue. On page 7of AR, under 'Skull and Brain', after 'On removal of the skull cap....at the tip of the right temporal lobe is a 1/4" x 1/4" similar appearing purple contusion . Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip of the left temporal lobe.'.....hmmm...

    I have no medical degree/knowledge but the location of the temporal lobe is on the sides of the head! And JBR has these contusions on both sides, visiable after 'removal of the skull cap'.........means (for now!), that these contusions were happened as the result of the blow or she fall and hit her head on both sides? ...puzzle....hope, otg or cynic could have an answer....
    These contusions (bruising) are INSIDE her skull, in the areas of the temporal lobe, not outside on the skin, as I read it. This is commonly seen in "shaken baby syndrome" (although not limited to it) and results form the brain hitting the inside of the brain case (skull) in a back and forth movement. Shaking her violently to "bring her to" would certainly cause this, as would a hard bash hitting her skull with enough force to push the brain forward and back in the skull. This is yet another indication to me that something hit HER and not the other way around.
    Unless JB fell from the roof or something higher, there is no way she got that skull hole from a fall. And before anyone starts imagining she might have actually fallen from a height- let me stop you by saying that 1. the hole and fracture would be in a different place because a body would not land on the top of its skull, and 2. there would be other bruising and broken bones as well.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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  27. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    Kolar's book has cleared up a lot re the time line of the injuries.
    The experts that had been consulted by LE unanimously agreed that the head injury came before the strangulation:
    As for the acute genital wound that produced the bleeding -
    it was inflicted "perimortem with her death" (p. 66), "very near the actual time of her death" (ibid).
    rashomon,
    mmm, that is simply consistent with Coroner Meyers Autopsy Report, nothing new there.

    Consider this scenario: JonBenet and Burke are playing about, quite physically. Burke whacks JonBenet on the head with some object. JonBenet falls into a coma. Burke informs his parents, once they recognise there is little they can do to save JonBenet, they decide to stage a murder. So they effect a sexual assault, and finally asphyxiate JonBenet with the garrote. They then tell Burke what his role is, and what to say to LEA.

    Now factor in Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks: Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration

    Does that sound like staging: regardless or whether its perimortem, postmortem, or antemortem?




    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Flatlander,
    Yes someone could have stamped on her head/body, if it was a rage attack?

    Can you link the Hi-Tec shoes to any injuries on JonBenet, or even match the Hi-Tec shoes to the prints on the floor, then you have a BDI up and running?

    BR could have been standing, but you have to factor in the sexual assault, here I reckon JonBenet was in some weird position and accidentaly fell?


    .
    IMOO I do not link any injuries to JB with the Hi Tech shoes/boots. Quite interesting read as follows:
    ST Page 238
    Two pairs of boots that were among the most difficult to retrieve belonged to Detective Sergeant Larry Mason and Detective Linda
    ST Page 239
    Arndt, both of whom had been in the house during the first hours. Arndt's clothing had been collected at the crime scene but not her footwear. It took a direct order from Commander Beckner before Arndt and Mason gave up their boots for testing, about a year after the murder, and it took still longer to get their fingerprints. Mason, the on-scene detective supervisor on December 26, had still not submitted a written report of his actions that day when I left after eighteen months.
    A reserve sheriff's deputy who wore Hi- Tecs at the crime scene retained a lawyer before talking to Detective Gosage. Then we got the name of another patrol sergeant who had been in the basement that day. That was also a year late. At fourteen months, Gosage found that an FBI agent from Denver had been in the basement and owned Hi-Tecs. The final embarrassment in the Hi- Tec hunt came when Detective Gosage compared the radio log for December 26 with other reports and discovered that a number of boot-wearing law enforcement types had also been at the house but had never "aired out," or given their location, on the radio. That meant we never really knew which cops, firefighters, paramedics, and sheriff's deputies were there. It seemed that everybody and their damned brother went wandering through the crime scene that day, and running them down was a virtual impossibility.

    As for BR standing on a chair hidden behind a door and waiting for JB to pass through ..... maybe, just maybe this would explain the chair placed in front of the train room door.
    Sure it could have been part of the staging but it also could have been used as part of the crime.
    And yes, I am positive if JB had been standing when struck in the head she would have fallen to the ground. Possibly on her back or rolled over on top of the train tracks. Just a possibility.
    Just a little note:
    You stated that: BR could have been standing, but you have to factor in the sexual assault, here I reckon JonBenet was in some weird position and accidentaly fell?
    Possibly they had been playing doctor before she got down to the basement. At one time I understood that PR was aware of JB and BR little game and she wanted to seperate them as much as possible. I believe the paint brush was a staging tool before she was strangeled. And I further beleive that PR was the corporal punishment here.[/QUOTE]

    Flatlander,
    Could be, I have never been able to eliminate PR, some of her remarks, e.g. I never killed my baby, or similar, are weird.


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  31. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    As for the acute genital wound that produced the bleeding -
    it was inflicted "perimortem with her death" (p. 66), "very near the actual time of her death" (ibid).
    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    Agree (see post #28). Now, what do you think 'acute injury' is part of the 'staging' or not? And before you'll answer, let's read definition of 'acute injury': 'An acute injury is an injury that occurred recently as a result of a traumatic event'.
    Hi rashomon and OpenMind4U I'm trying to understand the timing of this injury as well. How recent is "recent" and how near is "near" time of death? I just posted the following post over on FFJ:

    So I'm trying to figure out how close to JBR's time of death the acute vaginal injury was inflicted.

    From Kolar's book:

    "[Dr. Meyer] observed that there was fresh trauma located at the 7:00 o'clock position at the hymeneal opening. The area was inflamed and had been bleeding, and it appeared to Dr. Meyer that a foreign object had been inserted into JonBenet's genitalia at or near the time of her death." pp. 57-58

    And Dr. Spitz's opinion: "Inflicted perimortem with her death, was the insertion of the paintbrush handle into JonBenet's vaginal orifice. The presence of inflammation and blood in the vaginal vault indicated that she was still alive when this assault took place, but it was believed that this took place at or very near the actual time of her death." pp. 65-66


    "At or near the time of her death"... how near? Inflammation means there had to have been at least a little time between the injury and death, doesn't it? WHY was it "believed" that it happened around the time of death (versus, say, an hour or so before)?

    If someone has already done a medical analysis, can you pretty please point me to it? Thanks
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

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  33. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Hi rashomon and OpenMind4U I'm trying to understand the timing of this injury as well. How recent is "recent" and how near is "near" time of death? I just posted the following post over on FFJ:

    So I'm trying to figure out how close to JBR's time of death the acute vaginal injury was inflicted.

    From Kolar's book:

    "[Dr. Meyer] observed that there was fresh trauma located at the 7:00 o'clock position at the hymeneal opening. The area was inflamed and had been bleeding, and it appeared to Dr. Meyer that a foreign object had been inserted into JonBenet's genitalia at or near the time of her death." pp. 57-58

    And Dr. Spitz's opinion: "Inflicted perimortem with her death, was the insertion of the paintbrush handle into JonBenet's vaginal orifice. The presence of inflammation and blood in the vaginal vault indicated that she was still alive when this assault took place, but it was believed that this took place at or very near the actual time of her death." pp. 65-66


    "At or near the time of her death"... how near? Inflammation means there had to have been at least a little time between the injury and death, doesn't it? WHY was it "believed" that it happened around the time of death (versus, say, an hour or so before)?

    If someone has already done a medical analysis, can you pretty please point me to it? Thanks
    Britt,
    The types of biological cells found at the site of the injury suggest a timeline, since the human body reacts to injury in a consistent manner.

    So for a period of time to have elapsed between the head injury and JonBenet's asphyxiation, particular cells will have been generated by the body as a defence mechanism.

    I think Coroner Meyer employs this insight in his Autopsy Report, where he outlines the cell types etc.

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  35. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Britt,
    The types of biological cells found at the site of the injury suggest a timeline, since the human body reacts to injury in a consistent manner.

    So for a period of time to have elapsed between the head injury and JonBenet's asphyxiation, particular cells will have been generated by the body as a defence mechanism.

    I think Coroner Meyer employs this insight in his Autopsy Report, where he outlines the cell types etc.
    Thanks, UKGuy Do you happen to know... does that mean a few seconds of elapsed time, or a few minutes, or longer? Is there a way to know the range of time that would've been possible between the vaginal injury and time of death? Can someone say, for example, the injury could've happened anywhere from a few seconds to a half hour prior to death? Something like that. I tried to grasp the autopsy report but the medicalese makes my head hurt.
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

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  37. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Thanks, UKGuy Do you happen to know... does that mean a few seconds of elapsed time, or a few minutes, or longer? Is there a way to know the range of time that would've been possible between the vaginal injury and time of death? Can someone say, for example, the injury could've happened anywhere from a few seconds to a half hour prior to death? Something like that. I tried to grasp the autopsy report but the medicalese makes my head hurt.
    Britt,
    Yes, you can differentiate between minutes and hours. Seconds, probably not. I agree the medicalese in the AR is quite brain numbing.

    When the vaginal injury occurs particular cell types are generated in response to this. That is if it is perimortem, these cells are a type of defense cell intended to repair and assist a region of the body.

    When Sexual Contact takes place different biological cells are generated, and these are markers that distinguish an acute assault from a chronic assault, which might just display scar tissue?


    .

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    The way i understand the body's reaction to an i jury such as the jab, is that vessels first constrict and the defense response immediately gets to work to control bleeding and form a fibrin mesh. Then bleeding increases rushing red blood cells to the injury and form a fibrin plug. There were few red blood cells at the jab site and no inflammatory infiltrate seen. There just needs to be an expert say if she could have bled for a few seconds or minutes and if ANY inflammatory infiltrate should have been found. I think it was a few seconds to maybe two minutes between the cord killing her and the jab being done. Surely an expert knows if the jab was immediately before or after the strangling based on lab reports.

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  41. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    The way i understand the body's reaction to an i jury such as the jab, is that vessels first constrict and the defense response immediately gets to work to control bleeding and form a fibrin mesh. Then bleeding increases rushing red blood cells to the injury and form a fibrin plug. There were few red blood cells at the jab site and no inflammatory infiltrate seen. There just needs to be an expert say if she could have bled for a few seconds or minutes and if ANY inflammatory infiltrate should have been found. I think it was a few seconds to maybe two minutes between the cord killing her and the jab being done. Surely an expert knows if the jab was immediately before or after the strangling based on lab reports.
    txsvicki, thanks so much!

    But Dr. Meyer said it was inflamed and had been bleeding - is that different from "inflammatory infiltrate"? (Sorry for the dumb medical questions - obviously I'm not a medical type.)
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

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    I don't know how quickly inflammatory infiltrate should be found or if it's different than the initial bleeding. I just know the body immediately goes into action when the skin is broken. The capillaries were congested which causes redness then they start leaking plasma to set up the way for the inflammatory infiltrate .
    The upper part of the vaginal vault was unremarkable. Could the report about the lower portion of the vagina (above the hymenal rim) be held back from the public? I've wondered if it was so chronically inflamed ( and being a child's was not resistant to trauma and infection) that it was also bleeding and producing watery fluids.
    Last edited by txsvicki; 09-02-2012 at 12:04 AM.

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  45. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    I don't know how quickly inflammatory infiltrate should be found or if it's different than the initial bleeding. I just know the body immediately goes into action when the skin is broken. The capillaries were congested which causes redness then they start leaking plasma to set up the way for the inflammatory infiltrate .
    The upper part of the vaginal vault was unremarkable. Could the report about the lower portion of the vagina (above the hymenal rim) be held back from the public? I've wondered if it was so chronically inflamed ( and being a child's was not resistant to trauma and infection) that it was also bleeding and producing watery fluids.
    Thanks, txsvicki. Does anyone know - are parts of the autopsy report still not available to the public?
    The intruder is innocent! JMO

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  47. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Thanks, txsvicki. Does anyone know - are parts of the autopsy report still not available to the public?
    Britt, based on Kolar's references to Dr. Lucy Rorke analysis (page 64), and her references to the brain damages not described in 9-page AR - makes me believe that FULL AR was never released to the public (yet!). ...JMO

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  49. #75
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    Iím just getting around to trying to catch up with everything. Busy with RL, and... and... and... I got the book! Just getting through it too.

    I hadnít even thought about the possibility of a shoe being the source of the depressed fracture, OM4U. I tended to think more along the line of something that could be swung with a great deal of force -- something along the line of a golf club, a baseball bat, etc. While I had for a long time held the belief that it was indeed the heel of a putter, I am beginning to consider a baseball bat to be the more likely candidate. Now youíve gone and made me have to look into something completely new. Oh, well. There goes my day off.

    The thing is, according to your link, ďWhen the head of a victim is kicked, the head can experience a maximum acceleration comparable to that in a frontal car crash at 50 km/h.Ē

    And while I would love to get credit for cynicĎs extensive and excellent research, Iím afraid it is he alone who informed us about the mechanics of different device impacts. I simply added some information on the location of the depressed fracture (which to me speaks about how the head blow was delivered). This is the relevant section from cynicís post:

    Modern studies of skull fractures conducted by the American military demonstrate that it takes a minimum of 90 foot-pounds delivered over 1 square inch to fracture the human skull with a blow delivered to the front of the head. If the blow is delivered to the temporal/parietal area, 45 foot-pounds will produce a fracture. A blow to the zygomatic region, the bony arch on either side of the face below and around the eye, requires only 18 foot-pounds of force to produce a fracture. A mace weighing 1.8 pounds can be swung at a speed of 60 feet per second by the human arm so as to generate 101 foot-pounds of energy on impact, more than enough to fracture a human skull at its strongest point.
    So if we take the mace in the above example capable of being swung at a speed of 60 fps (60 fps = 65.8 km/h), it generates 101 fp of energy on impact. A kick in your example is comparable to a car crash at 50 km/h (50 km/h = 45.6 fps). So a kick with this much force (by my calculations) would be more than sufficient to produce the fracture. The only reservation I would have would be to factor in the hardness of the part of the boot that is delivering the blow; and Iím afraid I donít know how to calculate that in, because Iím not the engineer that cynic is.

    The shape of the end of the boot I would have to say is also somewhat close to the shape of the depressed fracture, so I canít discount it for that reason. And if a boot were to be what caused the fractured skull, then there exists the possibility that it may also be responsible for some of the other injuries -- certainly the abrasion on JonBenetís shoulder.

    There was a poster here at WS I havenít seen in a while named MurriFlower who believed that part of the marks in the lividity were caused by a shoeprint on JonBenetís back while the ligature was being pulled. I donít agree with that at all, but it is worth bringing up on this thread.


    And BTW, this is an excellent thread. Looks like I'll be spending a good part of my day here.

    .

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