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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Central Florida
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    Alcala connection to Andy Warhol?

    I apologize if this has been discussed previously.

    Has Alcala and Andy Warhol been connected at any point previously?

    From the information of the pictures (location, timeframe, identified pictures), it's looking to me like Alcala and Andy Warhol may have crossed paths while in NY. The pictures of the women in the club may have been connected to Andy Warhol in the early 70s. If that is correct, Alcala may have followed Warhol's entourage during the timeframe that he was a fugitive. That information can possibly put more names to the pictures and possible locations Alcala was during that time.

    The club Five Spot was located at 2 St Mark's Place from 1962-1970.

    Reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=Mgs...5RvLgFGE&hl=en

    "In*Andy Warhol's Trash, most of the street scenes of*Joe Dallesandro*were filmed on St Mark's Place."

    Reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mark's_Place_(Manhattan)

    Andy Warhol's movie Trash was released October 1970.

    Reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trash_(film)#section_2

    According to a post in the thread about the women in the club, a man who was engaged to Andrea Feldman (who has since passed away in 1972), claimed a large majority of the pictures were of the late actress (including Andy Warhol's Trash).

    Reference:

    " "Poor Andrea" was Andrea Feldman who had first appeared in Warhol's*Imitation of Christ*in 1967 and, then, in*Trash*as the person looking to score some acid off Joe Dallesandro. Like most of the Warhol stars, she hung out at Max's Kansas City and was well known for her "show time" performances. Another Max's regular, Leee Black Childers, was a friend of Andrea's:Leee Black Childers:"Andrea was rich already-born rich. Unfortunately, she was also born crazy. Her real name was Andrea Feldman, and she lived alone in a huge, luxurious penthouse on upper Park Avenue, complete with terraces, statuary, and even a waterfall. Her parents set Andrea up in the penthouse, provided her bank account with a gigantic monthly deposit, and sent a doctor around every few months to see if Andrea was any crazier. If the doctor decided she was, they would put her away in a 'rest home' for a while, after which she would return to Park Avenue...She entertained often, and Wayne County and I became frequent guests. Once, when we arrived she had completely taken apart the air-conditioning system and had the parts scattered all over her living-room floor. She explained that she was looking for microphones planted there by the nuns from the Catholic school across the street, who she believed were watching her. She went to Max's back room nearly every night with Geraldine Smith, her best friend and star of*Flesh. Frequently, at Geraldine's instigation, Andrea would suddenly shout, 'Show time!' and jump up on a table and take off all her clothes... Her performance in*Heat*was very well received. So much so that some very powerful producers asked to meet her. She invited them to her penthouse for dinner, which she said she would cook herself. Dinner was champagne and Hershey's chocolate bars. The producers stayed less than half an hour before making their excuses and fleeing."*(HR165)"

    http://www.warholstars.org/warhol/wa...an/heat22.html

    If Alcala was following Andy Warhol's entourage at the time, it's possible he made his way to Germany around 1971.

    " FEB. 19, 1971: TRASH PREMIERES IN GERMANY.ANDY WARHOL and entourage (including Jane Forth) attended the grand premiere of*TRASH*in Munich, Germany.*Trash*became the second highest grossing film that year in Germany - after*Easy Rider.Andy Warhol's entourage had begun their German tour two days prior in Cologne, after a stop-over in London for a Warhol retrospective opening at the Tate Gallery. After Munich they visit Frankfurt, Berlin, Munich (again), London (again), and then back to New York.*(BC49)While in Frankfurt, JED JOHNSON and FRED HUGHES searched for Art Deco pieces in antique shops which Andy had started collecting as 'props' for the Paul Morrissey/Warhol film,*L'AMOUR*- at least Andy would list them as 'props' on his tax returns.*(BC51)"

    Reference: http://www.warholstars.org/chron/197074.html#71germ

    There was a picture in his collection of 2 young women from Denmark that have been identified as being alive. The picture was taken at the train station. It may have been that Alcala left the Warhol entourage during that trip to Germany and took a train to Denmark. Or the entourage took the same trip without mentioning it.

    Reference: http://www.interrailnet.com/countrie...trains-denmark

    In one of the pictures of the girl with the long, reddish hair and necklace, there appears to be an original painting or drawing on canvas of a tiger. Andy Warhol had a collection of endangered animals. Could that have been one?

    Please add thoughts and/or references to help identity the remaining women.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterymom7 View Post
    I apologize if this has been discussed previously.

    Has Alcala and Andy Warhol been connected at any point previously?

    From the information of the pictures (location, timeframe, identified pictures), it's looking to me like Alcala and Andy Warhol may have crossed paths while in NY. The pictures of the women in the club may have been connected to Andy Warhol in the early 70s. If that is correct, Alcala may have followed Warhol's entourage during the timeframe that he was a fugitive. That information can possibly put more names to the pictures and possible locations Alcala was during that time.

    The club Five Spot was located at 2 St Mark's Place from 1962-1970.

    Reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=Mgs...5RvLgFGE&hl=en

    "In*Andy Warhol's Trash, most of the street scenes of*Joe Dallesandro*were filmed on St Mark's Place."

    Reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mark's_Place_(Manhattan)

    Andy Warhol's movie Trash was released October 1970.

    Reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trash_(film)#section_2

    According to a post in the thread about the women in the club, a man who was engaged to Andrea Feldman (who has since passed away in 1972), claimed a large majority of the pictures were of the late actress (including Andy Warhol's Trash).

    Reference:

    " "Poor Andrea" was Andrea Feldman who had first appeared in Warhol's*Imitation of Christ*in 1967 and, then, in*Trash*as the person looking to score some acid off Joe Dallesandro. Like most of the Warhol stars, she hung out at Max's Kansas City and was well known for her "show time" performances. Another Max's regular, Leee Black Childers, was a friend of Andrea's:Leee Black Childers:"Andrea was rich already-born rich. Unfortunately, she was also born crazy. Her real name was Andrea Feldman, and she lived alone in a huge, luxurious penthouse on upper Park Avenue, complete with terraces, statuary, and even a waterfall. Her parents set Andrea up in the penthouse, provided her bank account with a gigantic monthly deposit, and sent a doctor around every few months to see if Andrea was any crazier. If the doctor decided she was, they would put her away in a 'rest home' for a while, after which she would return to Park Avenue...She entertained often, and Wayne County and I became frequent guests. Once, when we arrived she had completely taken apart the air-conditioning system and had the parts scattered all over her living-room floor. She explained that she was looking for microphones planted there by the nuns from the Catholic school across the street, who she believed were watching her. She went to Max's back room nearly every night with Geraldine Smith, her best friend and star of*Flesh. Frequently, at Geraldine's instigation, Andrea would suddenly shout, 'Show time!' and jump up on a table and take off all her clothes... Her performance in*Heat*was very well received. So much so that some very powerful producers asked to meet her. She invited them to her penthouse for dinner, which she said she would cook herself. Dinner was champagne and Hershey's chocolate bars. The producers stayed less than half an hour before making their excuses and fleeing."*(HR165)"

    http://www.warholstars.org/warhol/wa...an/heat22.html

    If Alcala was following Andy Warhol's entourage at the time, it's possible he made his way to Germany around 1971.

    " FEB. 19, 1971: TRASH PREMIERES IN GERMANY.ANDY WARHOL and entourage (including Jane Forth) attended the grand premiere of*TRASH*in Munich, Germany.*Trash*became the second highest grossing film that year in Germany - after*Easy Rider.Andy Warhol's entourage had begun their German tour two days prior in Cologne, after a stop-over in London for a Warhol retrospective opening at the Tate Gallery. After Munich they visit Frankfurt, Berlin, Munich (again), London (again), and then back to New York.*(BC49)While in Frankfurt, JED JOHNSON and FRED HUGHES searched for Art Deco pieces in antique shops which Andy had started collecting as 'props' for the Paul Morrissey/Warhol film,*L'AMOUR*- at least Andy would list them as 'props' on his tax returns.*(BC51)"

    Reference: http://www.warholstars.org/chron/197074.html#71germ

    There was a picture in his collection of 2 young women from Denmark that have been identified as being alive. The picture was taken at the train station. It may have been that Alcala left the Warhol entourage during that trip to Germany and took a train to Denmark. Or the entourage took the same trip without mentioning it.

    Reference: http://www.interrailnet.com/countrie...trains-denmark

    In one of the pictures of the girl with the long, reddish hair and necklace, there appears to be an original painting or drawing on canvas of a tiger. Andy Warhol had a collection of endangered animals. Could that have been one?

    Please add thoughts and/or references to help identity the remaining women.
    This is very interesting, mysterymom7!

    I suppose that it is always possible that Alcala could have been following Warhol. I know that a lot of people were during that time. However, some of the dates pose somewhat of a problem.

    These are the things that we do know about times and dates and where he was. If someone reading this knows of something different, or can add to this, please feel free.

    From 1961-1964 we know he was in the army. Somewhere (I don't remember where) but it was mentioned that the girls from Germany were photographed while he was in Germany with the army). I don't have time today to research that.

    1964-1968 he attended UCLA.

    September, 1968 he attacked Tali Shapiro in California.

    Right after the attack in 1968 he fled to New York and started using the name John Berger.

    1968-sometime in 1971 he lived in New York under the name John Berger and was said to have attended NYU, film studies with director Roman. However, the more I hear about this, the more I think that this has never been confirmed and could possibly be something that was just a rumor.

    We know that at some point in 1971 he lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan and we also know that in June 1971 he killed Cornelia Crilley in New York.

    I believe that he fled to NH right after this murder in June of 1971 and worked there in the day camp that he eventually was arrested for the attack on Tali Shapiro. It was some type of summer day camp for girls. However, because he only was at the camp for a short time before he was arrested on June 12, 1971 for the attack on Tali Shapiro, there is the possibility that he worked the previous summer of 1970 and returned in the summer of 1971 and was there only a short time when he was arrested. He was extradited back to California and was in jail until August 3, 1974.

    I don't know how all this would have fit into the Andy Warhol theory, but there definitely are a lot of gaps, so I suppose it could be possible.

    I DEFINITELY do not believe that he went from the attack on Tali S to the murder of Cornelia Crilley without anything in between. But, I am one who does not believe that Tali S was the first victim, although she is thought by many to be.

    More on this later. Perhaps we can get more folks to input on this.
    My book, More Than Just A Pretty Face, about the unidentified photos of Rodney Alcala, will be published in 2017. Please visit and join my Facebook group to get all of the most recent information.





    https://www.facebook.com/groups/621913531276073/

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by norest4thewicked View Post
    This is very interesting, mysterymom7!

    I suppose that it is always possible that Alcala could have been following Warhol. I know that a lot of people were during that time. However, some of the dates pose somewhat of a problem.

    These are the things that we do know about times and dates and where he was. If someone reading this knows of something different, or can add to this, please feel free.

    From 1961-1964 we know he was in the army. Somewhere (I don't remember where) but it was mentioned that the girls from Germany were photographed while he was in Germany with the army). I don't have time today to research that.

    1964-1968 he attended UCLA.

    September, 1968 he attacked Tali Shapiro in California.

    Right after the attack in 1968 he fled to New York and started using the name John Berger.

    1968-sometime in 1971 he lived in New York under the name John Berger and was said to have attended NYU, film studies with director Roman. However, the more I hear about this, the more I think that this has never been confirmed and could possibly be something that was just a rumor.

    We know that at some point in 1971 he lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan and we also know that in June 1971 he killed Cornelia Crilley in New York.

    I believe that he fled to NH right after this murder in June of 1971 and worked there in the day camp that he eventually was arrested for the attack on Tali Shapiro. It was some type of summer day camp for girls. However, because he only was at the camp for a short time before he was arrested on June 12, 1971 for the attack on Tali Shapiro, there is the possibility that he worked the previous summer of 1970 and returned in the summer of 1971 and was there only a short time when he was arrested. He was extradited back to California and was in jail until August 3, 1974.

    I don't know how all this would have fit into the Andy Warhol theory, but there definitely are a lot of gaps, so I suppose it could be possible.

    I DEFINITELY do not believe that he went from the attack on Tali S to the murder of Cornelia Crilley without anything in between. But, I am one who does not believe that Tali S was the first victim, although she is thought by many to be.

    More on this later. Perhaps we can get more folks to input on this.
    The Andy Warhol theory would be between 1968-1971, during the time he was in NY. I'm basing the theory on the pictures of the girls in the club Five Spot. He may have lived in one of the apartments above? I haven't found the year Trash was filmed, but it was before Oct 1970. I believe around the summer of '69-'70 he was in Wildwood, NJ based on the pic of the woman with the camera/cigarette.

  4. #4
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    Nov 2012
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    457
    I don't know if it's any help but according to this site the filming for Trash was done by March 1970. This timeline says that shooting began in October 1969. It also mentions that there is a report that the date was December 1969 but most likely it was October.

    If you have a link to the picture of the tiger, I can try to identify it as I know the endangered animals series you were talking about and I'm an Art fan.

    A SATURDAY AFTERNOON IN OCTOBER 1969: PAUL MORRISSEY BEGINS SHOOTING TRASH.

    to filmography

    Morrissey started filming TRASH in the basement of his brownstone on 6th Street between First and Second Avenue on the Lower East Side.

    <snip>

    (According to Victor Bockris, Trash was shot during the first two weeks of December, 1969 (LD328) - however, this contradicts Joe Dallesandro and Holly Woodlawn who both remember the month as October.)
    http://www.warholstars.org/chron/1969.html

    Everything in my posts is just my opinion unless it's a quote. ||| please don't quote my posts outside of this site without my permission.
    I'm no longer very active on WS due to lack of time, if you'd like to keep in touch feel free to PM me though.

  5. #5
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    Nov 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterymom7 View Post
    In one of the pictures of the girl with the long, reddish hair and necklace, there appears to be an original painting or drawing on canvas of a tiger. Andy Warhol had a collection of endangered animals. Could that have been one?

    Please add thoughts and/or references to help identity the remaining women.
    I went looking for the picture and I believe it's this photo you're referring to: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Long reddish haired girl with blue beaded red necklace.

    If it is, then I don't believe it's a known Andy Warhol painting. I'll explain:

    On one hand, the lines are very sketch-like. It's true that his endangered animals collection has lines that are thinner and more like sketched as opposed to solid blocks of colour. For instance, compare this and this to this and this. I believe that having thinner lines show up in his work is a feature of what he did later on (into the 80s) but I could be wrong.

    Either way, even looking at the thinner lines in the endangered animals series the style doesn't quite match up. They're more precise lines, like going over a picture with a pen, while the tiger in the Alcala photo has lines that are less exact and more like a sketch. The colours also look off to me. Alcala's tiger canvas has an orange tiger on a white background. That's not very Warholian.

    The tiger from the Endangered Species series can be found here: http://www.christies.com/lotfinderim..._d5489348h.jpg . From Google images there are a few other images with differences in colour (ranging from minor variations to radical ones) which I don't know if they're versions produced by people on the Internet or Warhol himself. Nevertheless, the image is the same - a tiger facing the viewer, just the tiger's face. Alcala's tiger picture shows a tiger lying down.

    The Endangered Species series is also from 1983 and by that point I think Alcala was already in jail. I'm not sure of the timeline but according to Wikipedia he's been imprisoned since 1979. So it's obviously not from that series.

    Of course, it could be by any artist affiliated with Andy Warhol (or Andy himself but I doubt it), maybe as a preparation for that series. But it sounds like a stretch to assume that it is just based on Alcala's possible locations and the fact that Warhol's Endangered Species series included a tiger.
    Last edited by KateB; 04-04-2015 at 02:15 AM. Reason: repair url tag.

    Everything in my posts is just my opinion unless it's a quote. ||| please don't quote my posts outside of this site without my permission.
    I'm no longer very active on WS due to lack of time, if you'd like to keep in touch feel free to PM me though.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    1,839
    I believe that the tiger is a 1971 print/litho by the Swiss painter, Fritz Rudolf Hug, 1921 - 1989.

    Many of his works are found here:
    http://www.artnet.com/artists/fritz+...tion-results/1

    or

    http://img1.etsystatic.com/003/0/601...80893_ig92.jpg
    Last edited by musicaljoke; 07-26-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    457
    ^ Good call. I tried to find more info on the artist and one thing I found was a forum thread (I don't know if it's against the rules to post it, you can find it by searching for the artist's name) where someone is looking for information about an identical piece that has been in their family for years. Several people on that thread are saying they have them as well. It seems like it was probably a rather popular object at the time. Some people seem to have gotten them in thrift stores now and it appears to be valued at a little under $40 (the prints).

    I found his wikipedia page: Fritz Hug €“ Wikipedia

    I was trying to see if he could have known Alcala since people have speculated Alcala could have met people in Warhol circles and so possibly other artistic circles as well. Doesn't seem likely to me. It seems like he had exhibitions in places like Boston but spent most of his life in Europe, specifically Switzerland. IMO Alcala probably just picked up that print from somewhere.
    Last edited by KateB; 04-04-2015 at 02:15 AM. Reason: repair url tag.

    Everything in my posts is just my opinion unless it's a quote. ||| please don't quote my posts outside of this site without my permission.
    I'm no longer very active on WS due to lack of time, if you'd like to keep in touch feel free to PM me though.



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