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  1. #1
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    Sequence of Events Questioned

    Working the maze backward:

    JonBenet's longjohn's had a urine stain on the front - which would mean, if releasing urine upon death, she died on her stomach.

    The oversized panties were stained with urine as well...mixed with a spot of blood.

    Wouldn't this mean that JonBenet was NOT "redressed" after the murder - but before? If after the murder, wouldn't the oversized panties be dry? Especially if wiped down before the redressing.

    So, if the "wiping down" happen before the oversized panties were put on - then was JonBenet still alive when "wiped down" and "redressed."

    The blood was mixed with urine, so the molestation could have taken place within the redressing period. At that point, wouldn't JonBenet still be alive?

    The oversized panties were in her bedroom - doesn't it make more sense that the redressing occurred in her bedroom - as to the killer running upstairs (while JonBenet still alive), pulling out the drawer and picking "Wednesday" - to run back down the stairs to redress her body in the cellar.

    There was never a matching urine stain found (on floor, bedding, etc.) that I know of... So where, on her stomach, did JonBenet die? Where is the urine stain?
    IMO -

  2. #2
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    TLynn:

    Yes could be sequenced differently, but BlueCrab will suggest that the urine on her size-12 panties are post-mortem release, and he may be 100% correct. I dont know.

    Another possibility is only her underwear was swapped and the urine from her longjohns soaked her pants by osmosis. A long shot but we dont know the relative urine staining of each piece of clothing.

    Thats why I made that semi-dramatic Location ... Smoking Gun post. Personally I dont think she was killed in the basement, more probably her bedroom. Can you see Burke sleeping in a bed where his sister has just been popped?

    Patsy never re-dressed that day, how about Burke , what was he wearing going over to Fleet Whites house. Did he ever go to bed? Why did John hand in two pairs of trousers months later, because he had amnesia as per normal, or did he also wear the same clothes, changing only when he had his early morning forensic cleansing shower ?

    The basement scenario was staged , we know this for many reasons, it was probably one of many too, it was unfinished, little details suggest references to elsewhere e.g her white-blanket, her barbie nightgown.

    But since her sexual assault was part of the staging, why bother to wipe her down!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy

    But since her sexual assault was part of the staging, why bother to wipe her down!

    UKGuy,

    The sexual assault wasn't part of the staging. The sexual assault was the reason for the staging.

    The perp(s) wiped down JonBenet's body in the thighs and crotch areas, re-dressed her in clean panties, wrote a fake ransom note, and then brutalized the body in a naive effort to hide the sexual aspects of the murder and make it look like sadistic foreign terrorists had committed the crime.

    JMO

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLynn
    Working the maze backward:

    JonBenet's longjohn's had a urine stain on the front - which would mean, if releasing urine upon death, she died on her stomach.

    The oversized panties were stained with urine as well...mixed with a spot of blood.

    Wouldn't this mean that JonBenet was NOT "redressed" after the murder - but before? If after the murder, wouldn't the oversized panties be dry? Especially if wiped down before the redressing.

    So, if the "wiping down" happen before the oversized panties were put on - then was JonBenet still alive when "wiped down" and "redressed."

    The blood was mixed with urine, so the molestation could have taken place within the redressing period. At that point, wouldn't JonBenet still be alive?

    The oversized panties were in her bedroom - doesn't it make more sense that the redressing occurred in her bedroom - as to the killer running upstairs (while JonBenet still alive), pulling out the drawer and picking "Wednesday" - to run back down the stairs to redress her body in the cellar.

    There was never a matching urine stain found (on floor, bedding, etc.) that I know of... So where, on her stomach, did JonBenet die? Where is the urine stain?


    TLynn,

    I agree with you that the stains on the front of JonBenet's underwear and longjohns meant that she was lying on her stomach when she released the urine. But I don't agree that the urine was released immediately after death.

    My friend who is an emergency room physician told me he has never seen a dead body release its urine immediately after death, and over the years he has seen a lot of people immediately after death (I know there are some on this forum who don't agree with this).

    IMO the urine was released from JonBenet's body after she was dead and had been cleaned up and re-dressed in the clean size 12-14 panties. This would mean that she had originally been on her stomach for a time, or even posed in such a way as to cause the urine to stain the front of her clothes, and then moved and placed in the position she was eventually found -- on her back.

    IMO the Ramseys found JonBenet's body hours before they called 911, and she was in an entirely different position when they found her. John moved the body to give her a measure of dignity in death before they called 911.

    There were no stains on the floor because the underwear and longjohns had absorbed all of the urine.

    JMO

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    UKGuy,

    The sexual assault wasn't part of the staging. The sexual assault was the reason for the staging.

    The perp(s) wiped down JonBenet's body in the thighs and crotch areas, re-dressed her in clean panties, wrote a fake ransom note, and then brutalized the body in a naive effort to hide the sexual aspects of the murder and make it look like sadistic foreign terrorists had committed the crime.

    JMO
    BlueCrab:
    Thanks for your clarification.

    Are you proposing prior sexual abuse, and sexual abuse during the time frame leading up to her murder, THEN a further assault to hide the prior sexual aspects leading upto her murder, i.e. by using a digit or paintbrush handle, accompanied by brutalization of her body?

    We know she was intimately violated no amount of wiping down can conseal that. She suffered many tissue injuries, So just what can you hide by wiping her down? If her body was delibertately brutalized as part of the staging, why not not leave it as such, why sanitize it? Do the sadistic terrorists have some kind of prepubescent aesthetic, which requires application, even during the staging of a murder ?

    Or does this suggest there was more than one staging event ?

  6. #6
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    I agree she urinated post-mortem - so why were her panties changed prior?

    What was wrong with the ones she had on....

    Bluecrab, I don't believe there were no stains on the floor because the "longjohns had absorbed all of the urine." There would still be a wet spot of urine somewhere - even if only damp.
    IMO -

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    BlueCrab:
    Thanks for your clarification.

    Are you proposing prior sexual abuse, and sexual abuse during the time frame leading up to her murder, THEN a further assault to hide the prior sexual aspects leading upto her murder, i.e. by using a digit or paintbrush handle, accompanied by brutalization of her body?

    We know she was intimately violated no amount of wiping down can conseal that. She suffered many tissue injuries, So just what can you hide by wiping her down? If her body was delibertately brutalized as part of the staging, why not not leave it as such, why sanitize it? Do the sadistic terrorists have some kind of prepubescent aesthetic, which requires application, even during the staging of a murder ?

    Or does this suggest there was more than one staging event ?


    UKGuy,

    When I mentioned brutalization of the body I was referring to the extreme tightening of the ligature around the neck and the horrendous hit on the head, probably with a baseball bat. Both of these acts likely occurred after death and, IMO, were done solely for effect. The perps wanted the scene to look like foreign terrorists did it in order to direct attention away from the house. The killer knew the sexual aspects of the crime, if detected, would suggest the involvement of a Ramsey family member.

    Sex was the obvious motivation behind the crime. JonBenet had been internally violated and there was a sexual device wrapped around her neck pointing toward a sexual game -- erotic asphyxiation .

    And there is evidence in the autopsy report that suggests JonBenet died of asphyxiation DURING the sexual assault. "Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen" means no white blood cells had showed up yet to protect the vagina injury, even though blood had been coming from the injury. JonBenet apparently died between the time the injury occurred (during penetration) and before the white cells had a chance to get there.

    Thus, the evidence as I see it points to a likely accidental death during the sexual assault, but brutalization of the body during the staging trying to make the death look like the work of foreign terrorists.

    I theorize that children committed the crime and completed most of the naive staging before being discovered by John and Patsy. The kids likely had help from one older accomplice.

    JMO

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLynn
    I agree she urinated post-mortem - so why were her panties changed prior?

    What was wrong with the ones she had on....


    TLynn,

    The size 6 panties JonBenet had obviously been wearing likely had evidence from the killer on them, so the killer changed them and wiped down that part of the body. The size 6 panties are missing from the crime scene.

    However, the size 12-14 underwear the killer got from the underwear drawer in JonBenet's bathroom indicated he didn't know much about dressing little girls. John and Patsy would have known better than to put underwear on JonBenet that were twice her normal size. IOW, I think 9 year-old boys re-dressed JonBenet.

    JMO

  9. #9
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    Older Accomplice

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    UKGuy,
    The kids likely had help from one older accomplice.

    JMO
    If so, the older accomplice likely picked out the replacement panties.

    Not saying I think the kids were involved, but that probably it was someone older who noticed day-of-the-week panties in the drawer and assumed they would fit or they wouldn't be there, and that since they said Wednesday, nobody would notice they'd been changed. Very dumb. Yes, there was probably evidence, maybe blood, on whatever panties she'd been wearing after the visit to the Whites'. If she was wearing Daphne's, then both that pair and the Wednesday pair she wore to the Whites are missing, correct?

    (Or, might JonBenet have felt humiliated by having to wear Daphne's underwear, enough to herself want to open the new package, forgetting about the size? We'll never know, but she WAS very opinionated about what she'd wear, may have made a huge issue of it if she was really awake.)

    Any wetness on her bed sheet would have dried by the time anyone examined it, but there were no yellow stains, and the broken paint brush piece was found in the boiler room just outside the wine cellar door.

  10. #10
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    This make sense if Patsy caught John molesting JonBenet and hit her over the head with a flashlight instead of John...and the Ramsey's must have thought they killed her.

    Both are guilty and both cover it up...after all it was an accident. But they can't have the world learn CEO John was having an incestial relationship with his little daughter. And heaven forbid an ex-beauty kills in a rage, the Ramseys are more protective of their 'image' than their daughter.

    And so begins the coverup...John strangled JonBenet and Patsy wrote the ransom note.

    After all, they spent far more money and time, defending and trying to get back their reputation than find the ''killer" of their daughter....in fact the Rams have set stumbling blocks to anyone trying to assist them or help the children's foundation.

    Fake phone numbers, email numbers that no longer exists, a reward that went 'poof', and so on.

    Yeah it is possible the Rams are covering for Burke also...that scenario makes sense too.

    And it could have been Patsy alone, covering up John's abuse of JonBenet, when Patsy accidentally killed her daughter.
    -
    My opinion and nothing but my opinion.

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  11. #11
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    Great thread

    Let us not forget the 'flashlight' 'the tool ?', ramnesia again. If I remember correctly, no one in the Ramsey family remembered just 'where it was kept normally'. WE have speculated over time, that Patsy used it to creep down the stairs to do her midnight 'get JonBenet up BEFORE' she wets the bed routine.

    But as I recall it was seen on the kitchen counter the morning of the 26th? My memory is fading.

    I find myself wondering IF there was an ample supply of JonBenets size 6 panties, in the same location as the NEW weekday size 12 pantie package??



    .
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""

  12. #12
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    2 Pairs of Panties Missing?

    The Wednesday pair that JonBenet wore to the Whites' were rinsed out by FW for some reason, and before anyone asks, I don't remember which book, evidently not Schiller's or ST's or Carelton Smith's, all of which I'm almost done checking, for the runner outside at dawn.

    I remember reading somewhere that FW put his little girl's panties on JonBenet. Knowing how stubborn she was about her clothes, maybe that was humiliating, and maybe she even took them off right there, went home w/out any. Would anyone put it past her?

    Which would go along with Miss Daisey's theory, (I think is brilliant) that JonBenet got the black shirt fibers by putting her arms around her dad's neck and her legs around him, to be carried to the car and into the Rs' house.
    JonBenet may even have insisted on a pair of panties out of the pkg they were saving for her cousin. We know how the kid was. Pretty strong-willed. Didn't she actually kick her mother in the shin during an argument?
    ABOUT WHAT SHE WOULD OR WOULDN'T WEAR? Maybe because she was being abused, she needed some extra control and indulgence.

    Some will say Patsy was having another scene with the child and lost control. Not necessarily. I'm just trying to explain what happened to 2 pairs of panties that night. Was going to say maybe the Whites' carpet, or Daphne's bed where JonBenet lay down for a while, had a urine spot, (giving them as much of a motive because FW could react pretty strongly, even had a gun in Atlanta, if I'm not mistaken) until TLynn said the big panties were urine-stained, corresponding to the location of the stains on the longjohns, I'm assuming (?) If that didn't match, she'd wet the longjohns at the Whites', most likely.

    Anyone have Singular's book, and the parents' Death of Innocence? See anything about the runner outside at dawn? There were 38 REGISTERED sex offenders in the area, who evidently weren't looked at.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper
    I find myself wondering IF there was an ample supply of JonBenets size 6 panties, in the same location as the NEW weekday size 12 pantie package??

    Camper,

    There were 15 pairs of panties in JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bathroom. All were size 4 and size 6, except the package of new day-of-the-week size 12-14 panties that were still in its plastic package, except for one pair missing -- Wednesday.

    Patsy tried to downplay the fact that JonBenet was wearing size 12-14 when found murdered. When asked what size JonBenet normally wore, Patsy said 8-10. There were no size 8-10 panties in the house. There were only size 4's and size 6's.

    JMO
    Last edited by BlueCrab; 01-17-2005 at 03:18 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle1

    Which would go along with Miss Daisey's theory, (I think is brilliant) that JonBenet got the black shirt fibers by putting her arms around her dad's neck and her legs around him, to be carried to the car and into the Rs' house.
    .


    Eagle,

    That scenario would be an almost impossible secondary transfer of fibers. The black fibers from John's black shirt were found in the CROTCH of JonBenet's panties. JonBenet was wearing slacks, not a dress (which remotely might have allowed such a transfer).

    JMO

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle1
    The Wednesday pair that JonBenet wore to the Whites' were rinsed out by FW for some reason, and before anyone asks, I don't remember which book, evidently not Schiller's or ST's or Carelton Smith's, all of which I'm almost done checking, for the runner outside at dawn.

    I remember reading somewhere that FW put his little girl's panties on JonBenet. Knowing how stubborn she was about her clothes, maybe that was humiliating, and maybe she even took them off right there, went home w/out any. Would anyone put it past her?
    Eagle, I remember reading where FW had put clothing (panties) on JBR in times past, but I don't remember it being on Christmas Night. Can you source that, also, while you're looking for the runner?

    Anyone else know if this is accurate?

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