Has the case fizzled a bit?

wonderllama · Oct 1, 2012

Serious question.

Since the Kolar book and the flurry of posts after its release, I just get the feeling things have fizzled a bit around here.

Is it because some of us have sat back and said "Well, there you have it, we know the family did it, but we also know nothing will come of it"?

Or is it the Backfire Effect where in spite of the mountain of evidence that doesn't just support the RDI theory, but discounts the IDI, those IDI out there MORE stubbornly stick to their guns and therefore we're just groaning and rolling our eyes?

Or are we simply slipping into what I believe is JR's preferred option...the "it's all too hard" category where after 16 years of head beating it's all becoming a bit tiresome?

I personally am comparing the current situation to someone farting in a lift.
We all know who did it, but they're just patiently waiting for the smell to dissipate so that they can move on and walk out of the lift.

I haven't read Kolar's book, but from the posts I've seen, there seems to be little doubt where he's pointing. He's revealed some new information, he's confirmed some existing information. But are we at the stage now where we've narrowed down the only real bit of "required" information to such an extent that it's impossible to actually get hold of?

I'm keen to see SuperDave's book, but at this stage I can only make the assumption that the "new" information in it will be revelations of corruption and shoddy efforts by authorities involved rather than hard physical evidence.

So it will add the the whole, but not to the "hole".

What we have been doing over these last 16 years is painting a picture of our ever expanding Universe, around a black hole. We can be as detailed as we like with the surroundings, but the void in unavoidable and seemingly impossible to detail.

I just wonder if this case is slipping into the realm of "I reckon BLAH did it" and that's where it ends?

I hope I'm wrong.

eileenhawkeye · Oct 1, 2012

I don't think so. There is still so much disagreement over WHO did it, what part each Ramsey played (if any), the weird ransom note, WHY JonBenet was killed, etc. I think most of us have known for a while that this case will never go to trial, but we still discuss it. I consider it to be a pretty big mystery, because if you make any statement about the WHO/WHY/WHEN/WHERE, someone will disagree with you. Not to mention, I don't think it's really possible for a case to have 16 years of discussion, and then for everyone to just give up.

OpenMind4U · Oct 1, 2012

eileenhawkeye said:
I don't think so. There is still so much disagreement over WHO did it, what part each Ramsey played (if any), the weird ransom note, WHY JonBenet was killed, etc. I think most of us have known for a while that this case will never go to trial, but we still discuss it. I consider it to be a pretty big mystery, because if you make any statement about the WHO/WHY/WHEN/WHERE, someone will disagree with you. Not to mention, I don't think it's really possible for a case to have 16 years of discussion, and then for everyone to just give up.

Agree. This murder has so many 'layers' which we still pilling-off for 16 years without successfull complition. I'm not going here in much details why this case is so fascinating and like magnetic force pulls new followers and not letting go the old one

...

Here is just a small example why I'm attached to this case for so many years...

Without autopsy, what did you see? The TORTURED child in the basement, strangled by the rope with 'garotte'; her hands are bonded with the rope in the 'up' position suggesting some kind of hanging/controlling activity....here is your first layer...This how the 'package' was ready to be discovered by LE!!! This what in the mind of the 'stager' the 'kidnapper' did to JBR.

The next 2 (two) 'layers' are very important and shouldn't be ever forgotten in establishing WHY/WHEN/WHERE!!!

*** The extend of the head injury wasn't known to the actual killer. This was discovered during autopsy only.

*** The extend of the sexual injury wasn't known to the actual killer as well. In addition, it was purposely carefully HIDDEN to NOT be visiable upon discovery. Both injuries, the acute and chronic, were discovered during autopsy only.

The above two 'layers' are like the separate hidden murder....Some experts refers to these 'layers' as the 'staging inside of the staging'...for me, it's murder inside of the murder so to speak...

If properly understand the above WHY/WHEN/WHERE then we're ready to approach WHO....but for how long? For another 16 years?!!!! ....don't know, as long as it takes

...

JMO

Flatlander · Oct 1, 2012

wonderllama said:
Serious question.

Since the Kolar book and the flurry of posts after its release, I just get the feeling things have fizzled a bit around here.

Is it because some of us have sat back and said "Well, there you have it, we know the family did it, but we also know nothing will come of it"?

Or is it the Backfire Effect where in spite of the mountain of evidence that doesn't just support the RDI theory, but discounts the IDI, those IDI out there MORE stubbornly stick to their guns and therefore we're just groaning and rolling our eyes?

Or are we simply slipping into what I believe is JR's preferred option...the "it's all too hard" category where after 16 years of head beating it's all becoming a bit tiresome?

I personally am comparing the current situation to someone farting in a lift.
We all know who did it, but they're just patiently waiting for the smell to dissipate so that they can move on and walk out of the lift.

I haven't read Kolar's book, but from the posts I've seen, there seems to be little doubt where he's pointing. He's revealed some new information, he's confirmed some existing information. But are we at the stage now where we've narrowed down the only real bit of "required" information to such an extent that it's impossible to actually get hold of?

I'm keen to see SuperDave's book, but at this stage I can only make the assumption that the "new" information in it will be revelations of corruption and shoddy efforts by authorities involved rather than hard physical evidence.

So it will add the the whole, but not to the "hole".

What we have been doing over these last 16 years is painting a picture of our ever expanding Universe, around a black hole. We can be as detailed as we like with the surroundings, but the void in unavoidable and seemingly impossible to detail.

I just wonder if this case is slipping into the realm of "I reckon BLAH did it" and that's where it ends?

I hope I'm wrong.

Wonderllama, I have to agree with you. I like watching true crime, forensics, etc. and wonder exactly why this case hasn't been solved. Of coarse it is probably known whom the killer was and I seriously doubt there will ever be closure because of the dirty job so many left in it's wake.

I have not read Kolars book either. Was told he felt it was PR that did it by a poster in confidence.

We can continue to study the rope, the panties, the RN ... things we are prevy too. But it hasn't gotten us any closer to who is responsible for this tragedy. Like most of us here, I want justice for JB so bad! At this point in time I wonder if all we have is possibly FW when JR passes and who knows if even then? Honestly I won't hold out for BR because personally I feel he is involved. I can't imagine a parent being so brutal as to crush her skull, strangle her, sexually abuse her (leaving shards of paint brush inside her). I know it happens ..... just can't imagine the insanity of it.

OpenMind4U · Oct 1, 2012

Flatlander said:
Wonderllama, I have to agree with you. I like watching true crime, forensics, etc. and wonder exactly why this case hasn't been solved. Of coarse it is probably known whom the killer was and I seriously doubt there will ever be closure because of the dirty job so many left in it's wake.

I have not read Kolars book either. Was told he felt it was PR that did it by a poster in confidence.

We can continue to study the rope, the panties, the RN ... things we are prevy too. But it hasn't gotten us any closer to who is responsible for this tragedy. Like most of us here, I want justice for JB so bad! At this point in time I wonder if all we have is possibly FW when JR passes and who knows if even then? Honestly I won't hold out for BR because personally I feel he is involved. I can't imagine a parent being so brutal as to crush her skull, strangle her, sexually abuse her (leaving shards of paint brush inside her). I know it happens ..... just can't imagine the insanity of it.

Flatlander, interesting sentence above...would you mind to share with us the meaning behind the 'poster in confidence'?...I did read Kolar's book and IMO Kolar didn't put PR on the 'top of the list'. Suprizingly for me, Kolar didn't spend much time on PR behavior...the majority of behavoir's flags were dedicated to JR and BR. So, I would be very much interested why the 'poster in confidence' think that Kolar 'felt it was PR that did it'??...Could you please share....Thank you in advance.

SapphireSteel · Oct 1, 2012

Like many intriguing mysteries that remained "unsolved" at the time, there is an answer and ironically it often becomes clear with time. As passions die and science improves it will generally be accepted that there was no intruder.

I doubt many of us here on WS will forget Jonbenet or any other murdered child, while justice has not been done.

The real question for me, as in the Madeleine McCann case and now Isa Celis, is, when is someone going to stand up and take action? When will charges be laid, and if they are not going to be laid, why not?

That is for the population of the country involved...lobby your politicians mercilessly. They are all happiest if these cases just fade away.

They won't.

learnin · Oct 1, 2012

The problem with this case is we don't know where the first blow was struck.
If we knew which room she received the head blow, we could possibly narrow the suspect list down.

One thing for sure. When the head blow was delivered, JBR never stood again. We, also, know that the coronor noted dust and lint on JBR's bare feet when he first examined the body in her home early that evening. I've, always, believed this to be a very important clue. On Christmas morning, a
picture, of JBR, shows her standing in her bare feet by the Christmas tree.
It was normal for her to walk the house in pajamas and bare feet.

Which room had dust and lint on the floor? That is the room where JBR received the head blow. After falling, she never walked again and never had a chance to brush the dust off her feet.

Flatlander · Oct 1, 2012

OpenMind4U said:
Flatlander, interesting sentence above...would you mind to share with us the meaning behind the 'poster in confidence'?...I did read Kolar's book and IMO Kolar didn't put PR on the 'top of the list'. Suprizingly for me, Kolar didn't spend much time on PR behavior...the majority of behavoir's flags were dedicated to JR and BR. So, I would be very much interested why the 'poster in confidence' think that Kolar 'felt it was PR that did it'??...Could you please share....Thank you in advance.

Sorry but it was Private messaged to me. So I won't state that persons name; they know who they are. Just stating that is was what I was told. If you had told me something in confidence (PM) I wouldn't repeat your name. I never thought it was PR (except for the cover up) and that is MOO. I can't tell you why this person offered to tell and then gave PR name. IMO BR did it. Thanks for telling me what Kolar actually thought about the who done it.

Bonnette · Oct 1, 2012

Flatlander, I don't think anyone wants to know the identity of your pm'er, only the reason why Kolar supposedly thinks PDI - especially since he seems to lean toward BDI in his book. If that information was given to you privately, it would probably have been better not to raise the issue at all - regardless of who told you.

Flatlander · Oct 1, 2012

Bonnette said:
Flatlander, I don't think anyone wants to know the identity of your pm'er, only the reason why Kolar supposedly thinks PDI - especially since he seems to lean toward BDI in his book. If that information was given to you privately, it would probably have been better not to raise the issue at all - regardless of who told you.

Bonnette, the poster offered the info. openly to anybody that was interested via pm. Since I have/had not read the book I was interested. Which makes the following post seem a little legit.

redheadedgal said:
i also took away that kolar believed it was PR (and BR). iirc, he stated in the epilogue that he believed JR might not have been aware of the events of that night until some time later on... which would nullify john's involvement entirely, right?

some of those red flags were attributed to patsy... her peering through her fingers and staring at LE for instance. i wish i'd made a list of all the red flags while i had the book... maybe someone could take the time to do so?

So is this a matter of opinion on the PR did it or what? Looks like redheadlegal deleted their post. Very confusing.

DeeDee249 · Oct 2, 2012

Flatlander said:
Wonderllama, I have to agree with you. I like watching true crime, forensics, etc. and wonder exactly why this case hasn't been solved. Of coarse it is probably known whom the killer was and I seriously doubt there will ever be closure because of the dirty job so many left in it's wake.

I have not read Kolars book either. Was told he felt it was PR that did it by a poster in confidence.

We can continue to study the rope, the panties, the RN ... things we are prevy too. But it hasn't gotten us any closer to who is responsible for this tragedy. Like most of us here, I want justice for JB so bad! At this point in time I wonder if all we have is possibly FW when JR passes and who knows if even then? Honestly I won't hold out for BR because personally I feel he is involved. I can't imagine a parent being so brutal as to crush her skull, strangle her, sexually abuse her (leaving shards of paint brush inside her). I know it happens ..... just can't imagine the insanity of it.

I agree as well. Not that it has fizzled, but that, at least for me, there is a sense of futility. That doesn't lessen my interest, but it does increase my frustration. I am committed to continue until the truth is PUBLICLY known. If that doesn't happen, it won't be for lack of people striving to uncover it.
I think we ALL know that the police and DA have known for quite some time what happened to JB. The case won't be prosecuted because the case CAN'T be prosecuted.
I have read Kolar's book, and the only direction I see him pointing in is BR. Patsy and JR are seen as involved in covering up.
What is disheartening is knowing that they know. And knowing that the defense attorneys knew all along what happened as well. If they didn't know their clients were involved, how would they know what questions to NOT let them answer? The questions they were not allowed to answer, particularly Patsy, has always pointed much more to their guilt than any answer they might have given.

Bonnette · Oct 2, 2012

Flatlander said:
So is this a matter of opinion on the PR did it or what? Looks like redheadlegal deleted their post. Very confusing.

Kolar gets less and less straightforward as the book progresses, and is almost coy by the end of it. But my perception all the way through was that he thought BDI, with Patsy covering for him (hence her suspicious behavior from the get-go). I never got the impression from the book that Kolar thought Patsy actually killed JB - but for legal reasons, he couldn't actually come out and say, one way or the other. Steve Thomas did declare Patsy the killer, and he was practically eaten alive by Team Ramsey.

OpenMind4U · Oct 2, 2012

Bonnette said:
Kolar gets less and less straightforward as the book progresses, and is almost coy by the end of it. But my perception all the way through was that he thought BDI, with Patsy covering for him (hence her suspicious behavior from the get-go). I never got the impression from the book that Kolar thought Patsy actually killed JB - but for legal reasons, he couldn't actually come out and say, one way or the other. Steve Thomas did declare Patsy the killer, and he was practically eaten alive by Team Ramsey.

I don't want to be eaten here either

...but SOMETIMES I'm very much believe in PR insanity and capability to do unspeakable...I cannot be 100% BDI without the knowledge of his capability....hence his medical files...

JMO

Bonnette · Oct 2, 2012

OpenMind4U said:
I don't want to be eaten here either...but SOMETIMES I'm very much believe in PR insanity and capability to do unspeakable...I cannot be 100% BDI without the knowledge of his capability....hence his medical files...

JMO

No worries, you won't be eaten!

Flatlander hasn't read Kolar's book, and was just wondering about his take on who did it, that's all.

I wouldn't put anything past any of the Ramseys. JDI, PDI, BDI...that house was a hotbed of dysfunction.

OpenMind4U · Oct 2, 2012

Bonnette said:
No worries, you won't be eaten! Flatlander hasn't read Kolar's book, and was just wondering about his take on who did it, that's all.

I wouldn't put anything past any of the Ramseys. JDI, PDI, BDI...that house was a hotbed of dysfunction.

agree...poor children!

midwest mama · Oct 2, 2012

learnin said:
The problem with this case is we don't know where the first blow was struck.
If we knew which room she received the head blow, we could possibly narrow the suspect list down.

One thing for sure. When the head blow was delivered, JBR never stood again. We, also, know that the coronor noted dust and lint on JBR's bare feet when he first examined the body in her home early that evening. I've, always, believed this to be a very important clue. On Christmas morning, a
picture, of JBR, shows her standing in her bare feet by the Christmas tree.
It was normal for her to walk the house in pajamas and bare feet.

Which room had dust and lint on the floor? That is the room where JBR received the head blow. After falling, she never walked again and never had a chance to brush the dust off her feet.

This is an excellent point. My first thought was basement, perhaps laundry area??

Flatlander · Oct 2, 2012

Bonnette said:
Kolar gets less and less straightforward as the book progresses, and is almost coy by the end of it. But my perception all the way through was that he thought BDI, with Patsy covering for him (hence her suspicious behavior from the get-go). I never got the impression from the book that Kolar thought Patsy actually killed JB - but for legal reasons, he couldn't actually come out and say, one way or the other. Steve Thomas did declare Patsy the killer, and he was practically eaten alive by Team Ramsey.

I have read ST book over and over and even highlighted points made. I have studied this case since it happened. I really respect Kolar especially after the shootinging in CO. I didn't purchase and read the book because so many here were; I figured I would eventually learn what he had to say. Again thanks for sharing with the forum his thoughts. Glad to know I'm not far off track in my theory about what really happened.

So very, very sad for JB. I remember the funeral and BR smiling from ear to ear. Sickening. This was more than a dysfuntional home (close to a hellhole) I would say

Chrishope · Oct 2, 2012

wonderllama said:
Serious question.

Since the Kolar book and the flurry of posts after its release, I just get the feeling things have fizzled a bit around here.

Is it because some of us have sat back and said "Well, there you have it, we know the family did it, but we also know nothing will come of it"?

Or is it the Backfire Effect where in spite of the mountain of evidence that doesn't just support the RDI theory, but discounts the IDI, those IDI out there MORE stubbornly stick to their guns and therefore we're just groaning and rolling our eyes?

Or are we simply slipping into what I believe is JR's preferred option...the "it's all too hard" category where after 16 years of head beating it's all becoming a bit tiresome?

I personally am comparing the current situation to someone farting in a lift.
We all know who did it, but they're just patiently waiting for the smell to dissipate so that they can move on and walk out of the lift.

I haven't read Kolar's book, but from the posts I've seen, there seems to be little doubt where he's pointing. He's revealed some new information, he's confirmed some existing information. But are we at the stage now where we've narrowed down the only real bit of "required" information to such an extent that it's impossible to actually get hold of?

I'm keen to see SuperDave's book, but at this stage I can only make the assumption that the "new" information in it will be revelations of corruption and shoddy efforts by authorities involved rather than hard physical evidence.

So it will add the the whole, but not to the "hole".

What we have been doing over these last 16 years is painting a picture of our ever expanding Universe, around a black hole. We can be as detailed as we like with the surroundings, but the void in unavoidable and seemingly impossible to detail.

I just wonder if this case is slipping into the realm of "I reckon BLAH did it" and that's where it ends?

I hope I'm wrong.

One reason it's fizzled is that Kolar doesn't really tell us all that much that we didn't already know. (I know MWM will disagree, and I respect her opinion, but IMO, Kolar gives us little that is new)

It's not as if Kolar has finally refuted the intruder theory after all this time. Most of us rejected the intruder theory 16 years ago.

So there was a little flurry of activity as we discussed everything about Kolar's book, but now it's settling down again, as there is nothing really earth shaking revealed.

We knew the TDNA didn't have to come from the killer. We still know that. Kolar reinforces this with multiple artifact TDNA samples, but we really have not arrived at a new place.

We have what we need to solve the case. The fact that the police did a poor job and the prosecutor was in bed with the RST means there will never be justice. It also means we can still have 75 different theories of the case and no one can say for sure that any of them are wrong because nothing has been proven in court.

If there was an internet in the late 1800s, people would have been on Websleuths talking about Jack the Ripper. 100+ years later, people are still talking about the case, and still spinning theories as to "who dunnit". So it will be with the JBR case. I suspect it was Prince Albert who killed JBR.

dodie20 · Oct 2, 2012

OpenMind4U said:
Flatlander, interesting sentence above...would you mind to share with us the meaning behind the 'poster in confidence'?...I did read Kolar's book and IMO Kolar didn't put PR on the 'top of the list'. Suprizingly for me, Kolar didn't spend much time on PR behavior...the majority of behavoir's flags were dedicated to JR and BR. So, I would be very much interested why the 'poster in confidence' think that Kolar 'felt it was PR that did it'??...Could you please share....Thank you in advance.

I read either an article or a book excerpt, where the author said Kolar believed PR was the killer. I can't remember where I read it, but he could have been mistaken or Kolar could have changed his mind. Actually, I'm less sold on BR than I was before the book. After the book came out, I, for the 1st time, seriously considered him and honestly, too many questions are left unanswered and too many new questions are raised. For instance, the time lapse between the head bash and the strangulation. What was BR supposedly doing during this time? Also, the parents didn't hear a thing? They didn't wake or get up during the interval? IMO, if BR caused the head bash, his mother would have heard....and then what? got involved before the actual murder? IMO, PR wrote that note, and if so, then she knew where JB was, and what condition she had been left in. I can't imagine any innocent mother leaving her daughter in that condition. Almost immediately afterwards, the Rs started throwing everybody they knew- from their hired help to their best friends- under the bus. If BR killed JB, I find it almost impossible to believe that they would run the risk of an innocent person being charged, and found guilty and maybe executed, so they could what? protect their 9 yr old son's reputation? Anyway, IMO, some of these lingering doubts need to be explained, before BR is labeled the killer. He was just a little kid, and probably suffered from some of the same issues that JB did. IMO, he should be seen as a victim, unless there is some hard evidence pointing to him. And there might be, IDK, because I'm fully aware that, because of his age, certain information may have been redacted from reports. But, even though there may never be charges pressed against anybody, I would still hate to see BR be accepted as the killer, if he didn't do it. All MOO.

midwest mama · Oct 2, 2012

Several agree, as do I, that there are some who've studied this case well enough to have a reasonable solution to the mysteries. Also agree that we can spend a lot of time in the forum studying each piece of the puzzle before we snap it into our resolutions, and each time we do, we might even see things a bit more clearly. As we do, it either serves to confirm or dispel an avenue of thought.

Unless some of us are able and willing to really DO something to form a Citizen's Task Committee to erode the barrier put up by LE in Colorado, Chrishope is right - we'll all be here with our own 'Jack the Ripper' case a hundred years from now.

As for me, the ONE shred of hope I see in all of this is that Kolar feels there is a way to prosecute this case to a resolve. He knows it's nearly a fruitless effort on his part - but HE did what he knew he had to do. He can't go it alone, pure and simple. You all know the power of the RST.

After Whaleshark posted his great method of examining the RN, and I was able to confirm to myself, that it could be demonstrated as such to a jury that the note was a collusion, my own puzzle pieces came together.

This is my theory, and I'm sticking to it: (I will only post the highlights, since my reasoning it too detailed)

JR killed JB.
Burke either came upon the scene or was at the scene when it happened.
JR did 'damage control' on Burke, knowing his personality/psychological disorder would allow for him to keep Burke thoroughly managed forever.
JR told Patsy Burke killed JB. Either Patsy also came upon the scene at one point or JR awakened her to bring her into the morass.
Patsy helped JR stage the crime out of protection of Burke, which she believed until she died.
JR should be charged for the murder of JonBenet.

If this does not agree with anyone else's theory, or with Kolar's Theory of Prosecution, so be it. But unless JR is charged and brought to trial, WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE FULL TRUTH ................
unless one of those midgets from the Foreign Faction really does come forth!

Has the case fizzled a bit?

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