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  1. #1
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    Dr. Park Dietz and the Ramsey case

    I was just half listening to my local news, and a story aired about a physician, and an expert witness, Dr. Park Dietz. (You may also have heard recently about Dr. Dietz' expert witnessing in the Andrea Yates trial) At the end of the news segment (which btw was totally unrelated to the R case), they reported that Dr. Dietz was also an expert witness for the grand jury in the JBR case. I had never heard that. Here is some info on Dr. Dietz and a psychiatric expert witness such as himself:

    http://www.namiscc.org/News/2002/Psy...ertWitness.htm

    "Psychiatric expert witnesses are fixtures of the criminal justice system these
    days, and nowhere more so than in trials involving pleas of insanity to
    explain and excuse a crime.

    Q. What is forensic psychiatry and how is it used?
    A. It's traditionally defined as the application of the principles and
    practice of psychiatry to matters of law. In the criminal justice system,
    forensic psychiatrists and psychologists evaluate whether the accused is
    mentally competent to stand trial and, more controversially, to assess a
    defendant's state of mind at the time the crime was committed to help the
    jury determine whether he or she can be judged legally insane."......

    My question: why was Dr. Dietz retained as a psychiatric expert witness in the JBR case?
    Last edited by Nehemiah; 01-25-2005 at 08:05 PM. Reason: for clarity

  2. #2
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    Nehemiah:

    It may simply be standard practise in big cases, either to use as a default backup defense, or to assist in deciding whether to prosecute etc.

    Or you could speculate in the event of a Ramsey looking at a indictment, they might produce a psychiatric evaluation to prevent it being issued.

    I would guess those imbued with the freudian ethos will see this as further evidence of mental illness in a Ramsey family member?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah
    My question: why was Dr. Dietz retained as a psychiatric expert witness in the JBR case?
    Because of the high degree of irrationality in the case. What many people see as randomness in the case is actually irrationality. Psychotic behavior can have a high degree of structure, with a low degree of rationality. What looks like clumsy staging done to the body is actually symbolism known to the perp, Patsy Ramsey. What looks like randomness in the ransom note to some is actually dream like symbolism known to the perp, Patsy Ramsey.

  4. #4
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    Dr. Dietz states that he most always works for the prosecution and that he always has the case files before going into the trial. Assuming this is so for the R case, how do you see him being used? (Thanks BMoon, for your viewpoint above about Patsy.)

    Another thing of interest, he is the forensic consultant for the show Law and Order. He says that he consulted on a show that was a knock off of the R case. http://www.podengo.com/apocrypha/fall99/park.html Was that the episode where the sibling accidently killed the baby and the parents participated in a cover-up? Did anyone see it?

    That has me very interested, because 1) he was privy to all the evidence of the Ramsey case; 2) he probably testified for the prosecution to evaluate whether the accused was mentally competent to stand trial and, more controversially, to assess the defendant's state of mind at the time the crime was committed to help the jury determine whether he or she could be judged legally insane.

  5. #5
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    Interesting Thread

    Dr. Deitz evidently didn't find any evidence of mental illness in the Ramseys ?

    There was a new Lou Smit documentary on Court TV channel, Sunday night at 10. Better pictures than we'd seen before. Smit gives a very logical story but omits one thing, the parties they had and the coroners' finding of ongoing abuse. I had to do a search at the CourtTV forum to find any threads at all about JonBenet, didn't see any current ones or any place to contact Lou Smit to ask him about that and how he'd fit it into his intruder theory.

    I for one keep having the gut feeling they didn't just go home that night from the Whites after delivering a couple of Christmas gifts, that there may have been one of their probably-strange parties. Either in the house or someplace else. (There used to be a theory about a house near Boulder Creek Park, on Baseline, but I can't remember the theory at all ! It's just an inexpensive-looking frame house, 2-story, where college students rent rooms. No reason that I can remember that we should even consider it. Anyone remember? A Stacy Denton I believe said one of the homeless that she knew from doing street music had thought he saw John Ramsey come to the park with JonBenet's body, etc. Not saying I believe it, at all. Was there a Wicca or Celtic something meeting at that house that night?)

    The R's do seem very ashamed of SOMETHING, though I'm sure they did not kill JonBenet. As in the Danielle Van Dam case, where the parents had been, if I remember correctly, wife-swapping, but didn't try to deny it or hide it. Was any one of their "friends" involved in something at that house that night and did they ask to borrow JonBenet? Nutty, I know, can't remember enough about it. At least I remembered a little. Someone help us out on this?

  6. #6
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    Wow Eagle, that's interesting "stuff". I like sightings and such when told by street people, they have nothing to gain or lose, and often their info albeit clouded in content contains some truth. Maybe there was a "someone" who took Jonbenet to a "ceremony", I doubt it was John Ramsey, but who knows, the person may have "introduced " himself as him.
    This murder rings of ritual, it doesn't exactly look like sex, or kidnapping for money, or revenge, it looks off, maybe it was "off" in a way we who don't practice can't understand.

  7. #7
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    Dietz? Isn't he the one who lied on the stand in the Yates case?

    I have no idea why he would be called to testify for the GJ in the Ramsey case. I don't think he ever even talked to the Ramsey's....

    Waste of taxpayers money IMO.

    Sissi, I disagree on the ritual killing aspect. I doubt it was erotic asph(however it's spelled) either.
    It seems more likely IMO that it was done by a child, or someone with a childs IQ.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker
    It seems more likely IMO that it was done by a child, or someone with a childs IQ.
    Or an adult in a state of regression to a juvenile persona.

    Let's see, hasn't Patsy Ramsey been described as acting like a little girl at times?

  9. #9
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    Drunks in the Park, 3 Drowned

    This Stacie or Stacy Denton said she got scared when the 3 guys she knew all drowned in the creek, and left town. She was in Fla when she used to email me and "Butterbean" but it was all vague, and finally she got a new boyfriend and dumped us. Was that at the old Justice Watch forum that DunVegan had?

    It really is rather odd that 3 people would drown in the creek all at the same time, isn't it?

    I agree with a couple of people in above posts that this probably was some unheard-of kind of ceremony. And I have a hunch there may have been one near Central Michigan University one time, where a little boy was hanged and they claimed he'd been playing auto-erotic you-know. I think the word has an x in it somewhere.

    Seeker's right that the R's wouldn't cover for just a friend, unless, unless maybe they know something about his gang, that they're dangerous, would come after them. What a crazy case!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherMoon
    Or an adult in a state of regression to a juvenile persona.

    Let's see, hasn't Patsy Ramsey been described as acting like a little girl at times?
    Throughout the day, Patsy's manner would change abruptly depending on the question. The woman was a chameleon. - Steve Thomas, JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation.


  11. #11
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    Park Dietz

    I couldn't get that first link to work. Is this something current?

    Dietz made such a blatant, and possibly intentional, error in the Yate's case that I think his competence should be called into question now. I wouldn't trust the guy with anything as far as I could throw him.

  12. #12
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    Psychosis

    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherMoon
    Psychotic behavior can have a high degree of structure, with a low degree of rationality.
    Could you elaborate on that statement, please? Or PM me about it. How do you know this? Do you have a background in mental health?

    I would appreciate it, thanks!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalypso
    I couldn't get that first link to work. Is this something current?
    Right, Kalypso. That site was working when I started the thread. I don't know what happened with it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    This murder rings of ritual, it doesn't exactly look like sex, or kidnapping for money, or revenge, it looks off, maybe it was "off" in a way we who don't practice can't understand.
    My thoughts exactly, it's "off" in some almost-unprecedented way, something none of us would be very familiar with.

    Here's some hearsay about the only other remotely similar case I've ever heard of. And by some strange coincidence it was in Mt.Pleasant, Michigan, where JR attended Central Mich U. I've stated it in another thread too, in case it might give someone some idea.

    A 13-yr old boy was found hanged, in a barn, early 1950's or maybe even before that, so the barn may not be there any more, maybe even while JR was there? You know that boy didn't know anything about autoerotic asphixiation (sp?) which he was accused of, and that even if he did know about it, unbelievable, he wouldn't have been doing it right near the edge, in a dangerous spot. Seeker said she'd bet the perp is living in Michigan, and I forgot to ask why, hope I come across that thread again, or if you see it here please tell us?

    My source about the boy is more tight-lipped now. I wish I could find out more, know it'd be dangerous to go snooping around, even if I had the kind of pal who'd go along. A guy in a bookstore also almost yelled that he doesn't keep up with that kind of thing. Why such over-reaction?