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Thread: Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors: Ann Rule's Crime Files

  1. #76
    So...SDSO couldn't get a genetic profile...like I have been trying to say...


    The small knife had Rebecca’s DNA, and only Rebecca’s DNA. No fingerprints were developed from this item. The large knife had Rebecca’s fingerprints, and only Rebecca’s fingerprints. A low level of DNA material was found on this knife as well, but it was not enough for any comparison.

    Rebecca’s DNA was found on the rope, particularly in areas that would have to be manipulated to tie the knots. Only Rebecca’s DNA was found on these items other than one “artifact,” which is a fragment of material that could be DNA, but does not contain enough information to determine who, or what, it came from (animals and plants also have DNA that can be left behind). The rope could not be fingerprinted.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    So...SDSO couldn't get a genetic profile...like I have been trying to say...


    The small knife had Rebecca’s DNA, and only Rebecca’s DNA. No fingerprints were developed from this item. The large knife had Rebecca’s fingerprints, and only Rebecca’s fingerprints. A low level of DNA material was found on this knife as well, but it was not enough for any comparison.

    Rebecca’s DNA was found on the rope, particularly in areas that would have to be manipulated to tie the knots. Only Rebecca’s DNA was found on these items other than one “artifact,” which is a fragment of material that could be DNA, but does not contain enough information to determine who, or what, it came from (animals and plants also have DNA that can be left behind). The rope could not be fingerprinted.
    Let's not forget there were gloves found in the room as well. Those were not tested, that we know of.

    It's rather common practice for criminals engaged in homicide to wear gloves while committing crimes, to prevent leaving fingerprint evidence. That could explain the lack of other fingerprints on the items SDSO checked.

    But because SDSO didn't do a thorough investigation of the house for DNA and fingerprint evidence, we don't know if fingerprint evidence from others was present at the crime scene. Since the mansion was locked down and remodeled, all that evidence has been destroyed.

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  4. #78
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    Thread effectively derailed.

    Gosh, maybe it's just me, but it seems that the topic of this thread has very effectively been deflected and derailed.

    Hmmm. Wonder why someone would want to do THAT?

    Maybe because the topic of this thread, which was Ann Rule's upcoming book release, may not be favorable to those who don't agree with Ann Rule's observations? AR has had interviews that indicate she believes Rebecca's death looks like a homicide. And AR has helped solve at least one case that was a homicide that was initially ruled a suicide. She has also successfully defended libel accusations for her opinions in her books.

    Ann Rule's book will bring renewed interest and publicity to both Max's and Rebecca's deaths-- that is undisputed. After all, every single book she has ever written (30+) has made the NY Times bestseller list. So, using history as a predictor, there is a better than average chance that THIS book will also make the NYT list, right? And many of AR's books have sold into the MILLIONS of copies. That seems to be a substantial audience, right?

    So, I'm detecting a "counter threat-ops" mission in full swing here. Argue, deflect, distract, deny, derail... change the subject at all costs.

    Otherwise, why would anyone try so hard to derail a thread about a book release? Hmm?

    1000+ page loads in 24 hours tells the story. IMO.

    <...crickets...>
    Last edited by K_Z; 10-16-2012 at 09:54 PM. Reason: typo

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  6. #79
    I don't see anyone trying to "derail a thread about a book release". All these conspiracy theories are going too far, IMO.

    What I see are moderators warning us all to stay on topic on MANY threads because they all get off on subjects that do not belong on that thread.

    So, back on topic...

    It seems that the original book teaser that was posted has been changed to a new one:

    TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT

    It’s a chilling reality that homicide investigators know all too well: the last face most murder victims see is not that of a stranger, but of someone familiar. Whether only an acquaintance or a trusted intimate, such killers share a common trait that triggers the downward spiral toward death for someone close to them: they are masters at hiding who they really are. Their clever masks let them appear safe, kind, and truthful. They are anything but—and almost no one can detect the murderous impulses buried deep in their psyches.

    These doomed relationships are the focus of Ann Rule’s sixteenth all-new Crime Files collection. In these shattering inside views of both headlined and little-known homicides, Rule speaks for vulnerable victims who relied on the wrong people. She begins with two startling novella-length investigations.

    In July 2011, a billionaire’s Coronado, California, mansion was the setting for two horrifying deaths only days apart—his young son’s plunge from a balcony and his girlfriend’s ghastly hanging. What really happened? Baffling questions remain unanswered, as these cases were closed far too soon for hundreds of people; Rule looks at them now through the eyes of a relentless crime reporter. The second probe began in Utah when Susan Powell vanished in a 2009 blizzard. Her controlling husband, Josh, proved capable of a blind rage that was heartbreakingly fatal to his innocent small sons almost three years later in a tragedy that shocked America as the details unfolded. If anyone had detected the depth of depravity within Josh Powell, perhaps the family that loved and trusted him would have been saved. In these and seven other riveting cases, Ann Rule exposes the twisted truth behind the façades of Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.

    http://books.simonandschuster.com/Fa.../9781451648287

  7. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by K_Z View Post
    Gosh, maybe it's just me, but it seems that the topic of this thread has very effectively been deflected and derailed.

    Hmmm. Wonder why someone would want to do THAT?

    Maybe because the topic of this thread, which was Ann Rule's upcoming book release, may not be favorable to those who don't agree with Ann Rule's observations? AR has had interviews that indicate she believes Rebecca's death looks like a homicide. And AR has helped solve at least one case that was a homicide that was initially ruled a suicide. She has also successfully defended libel accusations for her opinions in her books.

    Ann Rule's book will bring renewed interest and publicity to both Max's and Rebecca's deaths-- that is undisputed. After all, every single book she has ever written (30+) has made the NY Times bestseller list. So, using history as a predictor, there is a better than average chance that THIS book will also make the NYT list, right? And many of AR's books have sold into the MILLIONS of copies. That seems to be a substantial audience, right?

    So, I'm detecting a "counter threat-ops" mission in full swing here. Argue, deflect, distract, deny, derail... change the subject at all costs.

    Otherwise, why would anyone try so hard to derail a thread about a book release? Hmm?

    1000+ page loads in 24 hours tells the story. IMO.

    <...crickets...>
    KZ, I can't agree more. It seems to me that when the thread started on Ann Rule's book just the other day that these forums erupted. No one can deny certainly that SDSO's ruling of suicide has been not easily accepted by the MAJORITY of the public which is why, once more, this book represents the MAJORITY of people that believe Rebecca was MURDERED brutally and that law enforcement has bought into the madness of supporting a far-fetched theory that Rebecca committed suicide. No matter how many articles are scrubbed, lawyers threatening defamation and law enforcement protecting their shoddy investigations, illegally holding onto evidence on a closed case, the fact remains that logical thinking people don't buy the results and this booknwill, thankfully, keep the case alive because people did not drink law enforcements Koolaid and smart people are not buying it.
    All of my posts are simply thought-starters and are not meant to be implications in any way, shape or form.

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  9. #81
    I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

    In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.

  10. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

    In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.
    And Dina's "homicide" petition has 1587 supporters as of now. I'm not understanding your point.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/tell...acknai-s-death

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  12. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

    In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.
    Hardly statistical proof.

    Of course I don't have any stats either, to back up what I believe to be true and that is that NO one with any sense could POSSIBLY believe that woman committed suicide.

    I also believe the majority of folks are of a like mind. At least no one I have spoken to about the case, and that's a lot of folks, thinks RZ could have killed herself.

    But again, it all boils down to our own opinions since there is no real hard data out there to PROVE what most people believe happened.

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  14. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by FrayedKnot View Post
    Hardly statistical proof.

    Of course I don't have any stats either, to back up what I believe to be true and that is that NO one with any sense could POSSIBLY believe that woman committed suicide.

    I also believe the majority of folks are of a like mind. At least no one I have spoken to about the case, and that's a lot of folks, thinks RZ could have killed herself.

    But again, it all boils down to our own opinions since there is no real hard data out there to PROVE what most people believe happened.
    You are oh so correct. The fact is one can believe whatever one chooses and it matters not if 100 or 1 million believe that Rebecca was murdered. What matters is that the murderer seems to care so that his/her conscience is cleared by others' leanings toward suicide to artificially mesh with the dirty deed that was done. And that is patently clear from the overwhelming social media/PR response of this case IMO of course.
    All of my posts are simply thought-starters and are not meant to be implications in any way, shape or form.

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  16. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

    In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.
    It's no stretch to assume that many people haven't signed a petition in support of reinvestigating RZ's death because they fear threats and intimidation from attorney's for JS and Dina. Both have been eager to use threats of legal action against anyone who has spoken out publicly about the crime. Given the opportunity, its likely they would do the same against people who sign the Zahau's petition.

    I'll admit I haven't signed it for that reason.

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  18. #86
    IMO, that's a HUMONGOUS stretch!

  19. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Betty P View Post
    It's no stretch to assume that many people haven't signed a petition in support of reinvestigating RZ's death because they fear threats and intimidation from attorney's for JS and Dina. Both have been eager to use threats of legal action against anyone who has spoken out publicly about the crime. Given the opportunity, its likely they would do the same against people who sign the Zahau's petition.

    I'll admit I haven't signed it for that reason.
    You have it nailed. With the threats, intimidations and social media responses, you couldn't be more right.
    All of my posts are simply thought-starters and are not meant to be implications in any way, shape or form.

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  21. #88
    Well we all must be reading different things, because from what I've seen, many people believed that Rebecca committed suicide but had questions about Max's death from the beginning.

    I agree with the SDSO investigation. I really do not appreciate being told I must be "someone with no sense" for believing Rebecca killed herself when that is the result of the SDSO investigation.

    If there are any "threats, intimidations, and social media responses" it has been from those on the murder side...<modsnip>
    JMO
    Last edited by nursebeeme; 10-17-2012 at 10:47 AM. Reason: discussing posting/other's opinions

  22. #89
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    Do NOT discuss one another or who has what opinion.
    This bee my opinion

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  24. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inparadise View Post
    You must not know anyone in Coronado or PV, because everyone that I have spoken to in those locations believe that Rebecca was brutally murdered.
    There are Monday morning quarterbacks in every city. Even if the case were re-opened and the conclusion stayed unchanged, some will still insist it was murder. Not all opinions are going to agree about any case. There are those who still believe Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone even though the case was reviewed and the conclusion was unchanged.

    I'm assuming that all members of the various LE agencies and ME's office that handled RZ's investigation all live in the area. They have publicly expressed their professional opinion it was suicide. Unless there is new evidence presented, I don't believe their professional opinions will be changed.

    JMO

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  26. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Inparadise View Post
    You must not know anyone in Coronado or PV, because everyone that I have spoken to in those locations believe that Rebecca was brutally murdered.
    Yes you are correct and in PV it is the local joke. Sad but true.
    All of my posts are simply thought-starters and are not meant to be implications in any way, shape or form.

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  28. #92
    I am in Coronado quite often, and those that I am in contact with had no problem accepting the SDSO's ruling in Rebecca's case. It is Max's case they have doubts about.

  29. #93
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    Frankly, I would be willing to accept the conclusion of any new, independent investigation. The problem I have with the SDSO investigation is the many flaws and inconsistencies. It was rushed and incomplete. Very little evidence was fully examined and a great deal was overlooked. Upon further analysis, many of the facts they claimed pointed to suicide have since been refuted.


    Of course, a new investigation would face some difficult barriers, given the ruling of suicide allowed evidence to be returned and has since been destroyed (Spreckle's mansion remodeling). But there still remains a lot of areas where a new investigation team could glean additional information.

    I'm not 100% convinced that Rebecca didn't commit suicide. But none of the evidence presented at this point makes me think that happened. I'm open to considering the possibility that she did if a new, high quality, impartial investigation is conducted by parties who have no connections or conflicts of interest with any of the parties involved in the original investigation and crime.

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  31. #94
    If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?

  32. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by K_Z View Post
    Gosh, maybe it's just me, but it seems that the topic of this thread has very effectively been deflected and derailed.

    Hmmm. Wonder why someone would want to do THAT?

    Maybe because the topic of this thread, which was Ann Rule's upcoming book release, may not be favorable to those who don't agree with Ann Rule's observations? AR has had interviews that indicate she believes Rebecca's death looks like a homicide. And AR has helped solve at least one case that was a homicide that was initially ruled a suicide. She has also successfully defended libel accusations for her opinions in her books.

    Ann Rule's book will bring renewed interest and publicity to both Max's and Rebecca's deaths-- that is undisputed. After all, every single book she has ever written (30+) has made the NY Times bestseller list. So, using history as a predictor, there is a better than average chance that THIS book will also make the NYT list, right? And many of AR's books have sold into the MILLIONS of copies. That seems to be a substantial audience, right?

    So, I'm detecting a "counter threat-ops" mission in full swing here. Argue, deflect, distract, deny, derail... change the subject at all costs.

    Otherwise, why would anyone try so hard to derail a thread about a book release? Hmm?

    1000+ page loads in 24 hours tells the story. IMO.

    <...crickets...>
    I agree.

    PLEASE LET US ALL BE CAUTIOUS IN HOW WE RESPOND. KEEP THIS FORUM ALIVE. DO NOT FALL INTO TRAPS THAT CLOSE DOWN THREADS, TIME OUT AND BAN POSTERS.

    WE NEED TO TRY AND KEEP THE PUBLIC'S INTEREST ON THIS AS THIS CASE GETS A LOT OF HITS. WE SHOULD LISTEN TO THE MODERATORS ADVICE AND USE THE NECESSARY TOOLS TO AVOID ANY PITFALLS. LET'S STAY ON TOPIC, IGNORE BAIT AND BACK UP CLAIMS WITH MSM OR STATE IMO. THE TRUTH IS STRONGER THAN LIES AND WILL WIN OUT WITH DUE DILIGENCE. JMOO.

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  34. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?
    The AG turns down a lot of worthy cases in case you don't know. They don't want really to get involved in reopening cases and will avoid that if they can. It would not convince me that it's not a homicide.

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  36. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?
    If you are asking for anyone's opinion then I would like to respond to your question.

    If the AG turns down the case it would have no bearing in my mind that that in itself was "proof" that Rebecca killed herself. Decisions are made behind closed doors for politically expedient reasons that are not made available to the public.

    However, since sdso failed to prove with evidence that Rebecca killed herself I believe Bremner has the necessary impetus to ask for and win a judicial review. That would be the next logical step if the AG turns down the case, imo.

    I believe that Bremner could meet the requirements of asking for a judicial review because imo there is much proof that the sdso was negligent in maintaining, preserving and handling the evidence here. Bremner also seems to have the patience and persistence for the long haul so I think she could handle this. Jmoo.

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  38. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousGeorgia View Post
    If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?
    Of course not.

    The SDSO investigation was terribly flawed. The flaws, mistakes and errors of omission are well documented in this forum and elsewhere.

    Claiming the results of an obviously flawed investigation as the final word in both of these cases accomplishes nothing. One doesn't have to be an AG or LE expert to know these investigations were poorly done and many questions remain unanswered.

    The only alternative, IMO, is a new, independent, expert investigation of the cases and evidence. It should not be a simple a review of the SDSO investigation, as Jonah requested. That's a completely different request, on that doesn't shed any new light on the crimes per se.

    No conflicts of interest, all experts with full authority to review any evidence and interview any witnesses necessary to reach a conclusion.

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  40. #99
    OK, if the AG says the investigation was correct, and then Anne Bremner manages to get a Grand Jury to review the case, and THEY say the conclusion of suicide was correct...would you then believe it?

  41. #100
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    LE agencies need a process for regular outside review of investigations

    Bringing this over here, as it seems to fit the discussion.

    One of the things about this case, and others (such as Dawna Natzke's case) is that there appears to be no procedure within law enforcement investigations for quality assurance. Within the medical profession, outside reviews of deaths occur regularly,and internal reviews of all sorts of mishaps occur daily. Sometimes insurance policies for hopsitals have a condition that outside reviews have to be accomplished in certain circumstances. Fires, for instance-- any hospital fire has to have a myriad of outside reviews, and inspection agencies reports. Airline mishaps have multiple outside agencies investigate what happened-- and not just crash situations. Outside review by impartial investigators in many industries is standard practice.

    I have always been somewhat dumbfounded that law enforcement investigations do not have this process as part of their standard operating procedure, when there are significant questions about how a case investigation has unfolded. Take, for example, the George Zimmerman case-- if there had been a system to review the Sanford police department investigation, the situation may have unfolded quite differently than it did.

    It seems to be, imo, institutionalized arrogance that says that if an investigation was done, the conclusions "must" be correct. Or we cherry pick "which" parts, or which investigations are correct, and which aren't, to suit our own opinions and objectives. That is a system construct that lends itself to bureaucracy and influence peddling at every level.

    LE investigations are sacred cows that we as mere civilians can never question without significant push pack from entrenched bureaucracies. It is a grave threat and an insult to these institutions to suggest that they submit themselves for review of their work and investigations. That is partly why it is so difficult to petition these agencies for another review and investigation.

    But it would take decades to effect changes and oversight, either through the statutory process, or at a national level. So it is what it is! Like our broken CPS systems-- this one is not an easy or quick fix. We have to find a way to work within the broken aspects of the system we have, not the one we wish we had!

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