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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktgirl View Post
    I can't agree more with those of you who have commented on how being young, mildly attractive, thin, and white has helped Casey Anthony and Elizabeth Johnson, among others.
    Had they been black or male or fat or old (or any combination of these things), I tend to think the juries would have gone in different directions.

    I am also consistently flabbergasted by how many (white, young, attractive) women seem to get off completely or be given a slap on the wrist in these types of cases where children have disappeared. Especially very young kids like Gabriel and Caylee- sometimes it seems like a large sector of our society would fught hard or even die to protect a baby in utero but can't be bothered to protect or fight for justice for a live baby whose pretty, young, white mama probably killed it. Like some of our society values babies more before they are born. I wish we'd see the same kind of fervor in stopping and punishing child abuse and murder of toddlers and young children as we do against abortion. Live babies are being killed and mistreated by their parents left and right but do not have a large part of the US population working to help them and make child-abuse a national political issue. What I am trying to say is I wish we had something like the pro-life movement in size and strength to bring these cases to light and help stop them. I think no matter whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, you have to admit the pro-life movement is huge and I wish there was something comparable to help children and babies who are victims- like Caylee and Gabriel.

    My own opinion- and of course, thankfully there are many people like us at WS who do care about these children and the fact that they aren't treated as adult victims would be.
    I agree. It sometimes seems that once babies are born, society forgets about them.

    It shouldn't matter that casey or elizabeth are white or young or attractive. It should matter that the children in their care were dependent, helpless, wholly innocent babies. If society won't protect babies like these with stiff sentences for the parents who abuse and murder them, how much can they actually matter to that same society?
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  2. #257
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    I think "race" is irrelevant (sorry, Gitana). Elizabeth could have been GREEN and shown her visa, from Mars!

    Tammy Smith *may* have been white, but "attractive," is largely subjective. STILL, the judge was just shy of letting Tammy and Jack get away with murder. Tammy's sentence was a joke. Everyone here knows it.

    In this trial, there was the same prosecution team---yep, the same team you all acknowledged as idiots and incompetetant. AND THEY ARE!!! Gabriel deserved much better.....from start to finish. Tammy and Elizabeth stole him.

    I expected very little of the prosecution so I had low standards. The team delivered. An absolute ZERO. Stuttering, stammering, losing witnesses.

    There is no sentence worthy of Elizabeth Johnson's actions.

    SORRY if it offends here, but Logan was remiss in not being around for Tammy's trial. It seems he would have learned the next time....but his absence from the verdict and pleadings? Almost unforgivable. He leaned on his dad....what????

    He IS Gabriel's voice. Where was he when the jury returned??

  3. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by ktgirl View Post
    I can't agree more with those of you who have commented on how being young, mildly attractive, thin, and white has helped Casey Anthony and Elizabeth Johnson, among others.
    Had they been black or male or fat or old (or any combination of these things), I tend to think the juries would have gone in different directions.

    I am also consistently flabbergasted by how many (white, young, attractive) women seem to get off completely or be given a slap on the wrist in these types of cases where children have disappeared. Especially very young kids like Gabriel and Caylee- sometimes it seems like a large sector of our society would fught hard or even die to protect a baby in utero but can't be bothered to protect or fight for justice for a live baby whose pretty, young, white mama probably killed it. Like some of our society values babies more before they are born. I wish we'd see the same kind of fervor in stopping and punishing child abuse and murder of toddlers and young children as we do against abortion. Live babies are being killed and mistreated by their parents left and right but do not have a large part of the US population working to help them and make child-abuse a national political issue. What I am trying to say is I wish we had something like the pro-life movement in size and strength to bring these cases to light and help stop them. I think no matter whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, you have to admit the pro-life movement is huge and I wish there was something comparable to help children and babies who are victims- like Caylee and Gabriel.

    My own opinion- and of course, thankfully there are many people like us at WS who do care about these children and the fact that they aren't treated as adult victims would be.
    I think pro-life people are beyond appalled when any child is murdered. What exactly would you have people do, that isn't being done? Mistreating and/or killing a born child is already clearly against the law. Lynch mob? Threaten jury members? I'm just curious to know exactly what you have in mind.
    If I can stop one heart from breaking,
    I shall not live in vain;
    If I can ease one life the aching,
    Or cool one pain,
    Or help one fainting robin
    Unto his nest again,
    I shall not live in vain.
    ~Emily Dickinson~

  4. #259
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    Reading these with interest, I wanted to comment on something I have not heard discussed. I think a large part of why criminals are not prosecuted vigorously, is because there is not room in all of the jails and prisons to house them. When you look at not only the amount of crimes, but the spike in the violence and outrageous types of them, it appears to me that society needs to take a harder look at just what is causing them to occur in the first place. And that's a discussion not relevant here.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by southern_comfort View Post
    I think pro-life people are beyond appalled when any child is murdered. What exactly would you have people do, that isn't being done? Mistreating and/or killing a born child is already clearly against the law. Lynch mob? Threaten jury members? I'm just curious to know exactly what you have in mind.
    BBM.

    Hmmm. I'm not sure why you went to those possibilities. What does the pro-life movement do? Well, it seeks political change, elected officials who care about the issue, changes in law and increased awareness about abortion and options. It lobbies, raises funds, organizes protests, etc. And it has had a huge effect. There is a ton of money and power linked to the movement.

    But, there doesn't exist the same political movement or organized national outrage about child abuse and murder as there exists about abortion. I think that's the point. Why isn't the fight against child abuse and child murder as well-funded and well-organized as the pro-life movement?

    At least I think that's the point ktgirl was making but I don't want to put words in her mouth.


    Let me say that I have studied the rights of children and child abuse in American history from a legal perspective. Children really have been considered chattel for most of that history. Today, they have many more rights but the vestiges of the parental "property right" to one's children continue to impact our society culturally and legally.

    Thus, people who beat their own child to death receive far lighter sentences than a non-relative who does the same thing. There is a huge amount of horror and panic about stranger abductions and murders, and rightly so, yet the amount of children who die at the hands of their parents due to abuse is incredibly, vastly, exponentially higher. It's so much higher there is no comparison. Yet, the same amount of horror and panic about child abuse as there exists for stranger abduction is simply not there.

    I think the point here is that the rights of the child to have justice do not seem as important culturally or politically as the rights of the unborn child or even as the rights of the defendant.

    Look at Juliette Guerts' case. Then we have casey anthony and this one and countless others.

    My point earlier was that when the defendant is white or young and white, their rights become even more important than the rights of the dead child. I added to that above, staying that historically, if the defendant is the victim's parent, the rights of the child become even less important than their own.

    But actually, it kind of seems that any defendant's rights are considered more than those of the children who have been abused or murdered.

    In fact, it even applies to strangers or non-relations who abuse children. Think about all those molesters let out of prison to molest or kill again. Think about Sandusky. His colleague actually saw him raping a ten year old boy and nothing was done.

    Again, I may be putting words into ktgirl's mouth but I agree that we need as much organized outrage and political pressure when it comes to children already born as there is for children not yet out of the womb. Regardless of how a person feels about abortion. Because that's not what this is about. We need to fight harder and stronger for the rights of these kids. For better laws, better judges, better awareness, more societal horror so that juries are compelled to do the right thing, rather than feel sorry for the defendant, etc. Because what has happened in these cases is certainly outrageous. There should be protests and serious anger and there's not really much of either. And to me, that's going to lead to some other narcissistic monster thinking she can do away with her kid and get off scott free.
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenPants View Post
    Reading these with interest, I wanted to comment on something I have not heard discussed. I think a large part of why criminals are not prosecuted vigorously, is because there is not room in all of the jails and prisons to house them. When you look at not only the amount of crimes, but the spike in the violence and outrageous types of them, it appears to me that society needs to take a harder look at just what is causing them to occur in the first place. And that's a discussion not relevant here.
    Cost certainly could be a factor. It seems it has in certain cases, Like Kyron Horman's. The state had to justify to the citizenry spending money on a search. In casey anthony's case, the money spent prosecuting her kept being brought up.

    But I did want to point out that according to national stats, violent crime rates are actually going down: http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012.../crimes_061112

    I think we have always had horrific crimes. (In fact, The Diary of Martha Ballard, written by a colonial woman, shows that is the case). We just have better news coverage and dissemination today.
    For Elizabeth, a minor child, a victim. Thank God she is home!

    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  7. #262
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    "Baby Gabriel's mom wants out of jail"

    "Baby Gabriel's mother says she should be released from jail until her sentencing on convictions of custodial interference, conspiracy to commit custodial inference and unlawful imprisonment. Elizabeth Johnson has been in jail for nearly three years. Last week, a jury convicted her on three charges in connection with the December 2009 disappearance of her then 8-month-old son, Gabriel Johnson."

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/B...175788741.html

    Am I wrong in remembering that Johnson fought tooth and nail with her prior attorneys? Didn't she try to play the psychiatric card too, causing lengthy delays? Someone please help me out, am I thinking of the wrong case?

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marigold View Post
    "Baby Gabriel's mom wants out of jail"

    "Baby Gabriel's mother says she should be released from jail until her sentencing on convictions of custodial interference, conspiracy to commit custodial inference and unlawful imprisonment. Elizabeth Johnson has been in jail for nearly three years. Last week, a jury convicted her on three charges in connection with the December 2009 disappearance of her then 8-month-old son, Gabriel Johnson."

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/B...175788741.html

    Am I wrong in remembering that Johnson fought tooth and nail with her prior attorneys? Didn't she try to play the psychiatric card too, causing lengthy delays? Someone please help me out, am I thinking of the wrong case?
    Nope, you are remembering the correct case.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marigold View Post
    "Baby Gabriel's mom wants out of jail"

    "Baby Gabriel's mother says she should be released from jail until her sentencing on convictions of custodial interference, conspiracy to commit custodial inference and unlawful imprisonment. Elizabeth Johnson has been in jail for nearly three years. Last week, a jury convicted her on three charges in connection with the December 2009 disappearance of her then 8-month-old son, Gabriel Johnson."

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/B...175788741.html

    Am I wrong in remembering that Johnson fought tooth and nail with her prior attorneys? Didn't she try to play the psychiatric card too, causing lengthy delays? Someone please help me out, am I thinking of the wrong case?


    As I recall, it wasn't EJ who played the psych card - it was her attorneys. She has always maintained that she is sane, and doesn't need mental health treatment. In fact, IIRC, some of the letters she wrote to the judge talks about how angry she was with her attorneys for claiming she was incompetent.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
    shes so happy, she got away with the murder of her child!!!
    Yep, and she reminds me of that other one who smiled when she got away with the murder of her child.


  11. #266
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    I have no idea why this "thread" title says 2 of 3 charges (hung on kidnapping).

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - **Guilty of 2 of 3 charges (hung on kidnapping)**Verdict watch


    She was FOUND GUILTY of 3 charges
    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/val...beth_joh_3.php

    AZ can retry on kidnapping (since it was hung) IF they wish. Not going to hold my breath though.
    JMO.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
    I have no idea why this "thread" title says 2 of 3 charges (hung on kidnapping).

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - **Guilty of 2 of 3 charges (hung on kidnapping)**Verdict watch


    She was FOUND GUILTY of 3 charges
    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/val...beth_joh_3.php

    AZ can retry on kidnapping (since it was hung) IF they wish. Not going to hold my breath though.
    JMO.


    Actually, they can't retry her on kidnapping, since she was found guilty of the lesser INCLUDED charge.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by artsy1 View Post
    Actually, they can't retry her on kidnapping, since she was found guilty of the lesser INCLUDED charge.
    Thank you for clarifying that...it was pretty clear in the media. Not sure why anyone thought Elizabeth could be retried.

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