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  1. #1
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    Off-topic - Beauty Pageant Toddler

    http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and...207-2azi8.html


    Interesting story from a former child beauty pageant participant.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderllama View Post
    http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and...207-2azi8.html


    Interesting story from a former child beauty pageant participant.
    Thank you very much for the link. Very-very interesting article...and I believe it's NOT OFF-TOPIC at all!!! While reading, I can hear the voice of JonBenet in every sentence......I can understand why Patsy's sister is overweight and I can see Patsy's anger over the 'damaged goods'...

    Poor children. Crazy mothers.

    Again, thank you for the link.

  3. #3
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    I am a professional makeup artist. While my company got its start doing special effects and theatrical makeup, our speciality today is glamour, fantasy, and performance makeup -- primarily for kids and young adults. I have worked with literally thousands of pageant moms and kids (and perhaps tens of thousands of non-pageant moms and kids).

    For what it's worth:

    The pageant kids are generally fantastic to work with. They are, from my experience, in every way normal and well adjusted. If anything, they are better behaved and less neurotic than the "average." They are no different than the kids in gymnastics, dance, cheer, or anything else. Pageant moms (and it's almost always moms -- never dads) are ALSO laid back. Once they recognize and accept that you are a professional they shut up, get out of the way, and let you do your job. From our perspective they are often the best parents in that they are less likely to nag at their kids (which we really hate).

    They are also, and again this is my opinion, among the most laid back in general. They are there to have fun -- particularly when the pageant is over. From my perspective they like their kids and see the pageants as something fun for them to do together. Before the shows they are serious, but then so are the kids. They are as serious as a 4H kid (and parent) getting ready to show off the animal that they spent months training. But that's to be expected. If you want to see crazy parents go to a little league game. If you want to see moms out having fun with their daughters visit a pageant.

    And one final point: what you see on TV is not really the whole story. They are following the kids and parents that they think make for the best entertainment, and I suspect everyone is hamming it up a bit when the cameras are rolling.

    EDIT: This is not meant in any way to distract from the link provided. It was an interesting article particularly as it relates to this case. I spoke up only to offer a different perspective, and one you don't generally hear. I don't believe that beauty pageants "sexualize" kids any more than society already does. If someone wants to advance the position that the very process of judging women (primarily) based upon their beauty is misogynistic I will concede the point, but that's another subject entirely.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Patsy was freaking nuts, and I believe that she probably pushed JonBenet harder than was appropriate. I suppose what I am saying is that this is not NORMAL, and anyone forming an opinion about pageants or parents based upon these exceptions is probably drawing the wrong conclusions. I remember, years ago, reading a magazine article about some young Olympic figure skater in which she outlined how her day's went. Every morning she was up at 3am. She hit the gym, then dance lessons, then the ice, then school, then back to the rink, then back to the gym, then bed. Every day. All year. No exceptions. Crazy? Yes! But she won a gold medal.

    But for every kid that wins a gold there are hundreds of thousands who don't. They are in gymnastics or cheer, they are in dance, they play the piano, they study math or spelling, and maybe they don't work quite as hard as this Olympic kid, but you can bet your bottom dollar that some of them -- thousands and thousands of them -- have parents that make the typical pageant mom look like she's asleep.
    Last edited by Chris_Texas; 12-12-2012 at 06:09 AM.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Texas View Post
    respectfully skipped....
    Yes! But she won a gold medal......But for every kid that wins a gold there are hundreds of thousands who don't. They are in gymnastics or cheer, they are in dance, they play the piano, they study math or spelling, and maybe they don't work quite as hard as this Olympic kid....
    Dear Chris_Texas. I do appreciate your honest point of view. It's probably me, who's old, raised in different culture, and - as the mother - had entirely different goals and values in up-bringing/raising kids. So, please be patient with me...I simply want to ask you couple questions.

    You described so good the hard work of Olimpic winner kid. You mention the thousand other kids (and their 'energetic' parents) who dedicates the time, money, health in MUSIC, SPORT, MATH, DANCE....to better themself, to advance their talent, to possibly bring GOLD for their country, family and friends....I can appluade these kids and their mothers!!! These kids, regardless of winning the gold or not, already are winners! And their parents should be proud of them!

    - Now, for above mention kids, does the flashy make-up, the Vegas-style customes, the BLEACHED hair and fake teeth would advanced their talent or ease the competition or - the best of all! - their ABILITY to succeed in life?

    - What VALUE the pageants (in which JBR has participated) would give 4-6 year old kids to better themself, to advance their tallent? Her mother, Patsy, was a winner of these pagents when she was young (of course, not when she was 4-6 years old)...and what? The only important value in life for Patsy was the APPEARANCE, the FACADE!....

    The point I'm trying to make (and it's my strong opinion!) that children pageants have NEGATIVE impact on kid's mental and physical life. It gives absolutely ZERO value for kids to understand who theyr ARE, who they WILL be...the only things will left behind are the dusty costumes/trophies and confused souls/minds.

    jmo
    Last edited by OpenMind4U; 12-12-2012 at 05:17 PM. Reason: spelling:)

  5. #5
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    Heyya wonderllama,

    Yes that is a valuable article,
    “Princess by Proxy” says it all.

    There's not often I read something online and have a verbal response as I'm reading but I was struck .... with an utterance after having read this ......

    "But there was a darker side: The old men scratching their crotches while I performed in skimpy costumes. The latent and confusing fear of being looked at sexually, which continued even into adulthood."

    A little girl makes note of this behaviour, yet the mothers are oblivious.
    Mind boggling.

  6. #6
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    What a sad story, and to think it is only one of many. Anyone else notice the "ads by Google" after the article? I wonder what will become of Honey Boo Boo? I agree, the young child notices the old men, but the mom doesn't??? But then it was the mom telling this young child to just shake it. Some people should not be parents!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    Dear Chris_Texas. I do appreciate your honest point of view. It's probably me, who's old, raised in different culture, and - as the mother - had entirely different goals and values in up-bringing/raising kids. So, please be patient with me...I simply want to ask you couple questions.

    You described so good the hard work of Olimpic winner kid. You mention the thousand other kids (and their 'energetic' parents) who dedicates the time, money, health in MUSIC, SPORT, MATH, DANCE....to better themself, to advance their talent, to possibly bring GOLD for their country, family and friends....I can appluade these kids and their mothers!!! These kids, regardless of winning the gold or not, already are winners! And their parents should be proud of them!
    My hope is that parents are proud of their children regardless. I'm sure you feel the same.

    I have a very real question in my mind about all of this stuff. It's easy to look at the success stories and see merit, and there are real advantages to a child devoting themselves to anything regardless of their level of competetive success. But there is danger as well. Sometimes physical danger -- some of these activities (cheerleading for example) are incredibly dangerous -- but also in the form of overly enthusiastic parents.

    - Now, for above mention kids, does the flashy make-up, the Vegas-style customes, the BLEACHED hair and fake teeth would advanced their talent or ease the competition or - the best of all! - their ABILITY to succeed in life?

    - What VALUE the pageants (in which JBR has participated) would give 4-6 year old kids to better themself, to advance their tallent? Her mother, Patsy, was a winner of these pagents when she was young (of course, not when she was 4-6 years old)...and what? The only important value in life for Patsy was the APPEARANCE, the FACADE!....

    The point I'm trying to make (and it's my strong opinion!) that children pageants have NEGATIVE impact on kid's mental and physical life. It gives absolutely ZERO value for kids to understand who theyr ARE, who they WILL be...the only things will left behind are the dusty costumes/trophies and confused souls/minds.

    jmo
    There are a couple issues you raise here. The first is merit.

    A child's activity can be worthwhile irrespective of any potential value that activity provides later in life. Most activities, unless the participant somehow manages to achieve world class competence, offer only the most subjective adult life advantages -- and similar lists of advantages applys to pretty much any activity you might name. For example, one could argue that these pageant kids are learning to overcome one of the greatest fears most adults have: speaking and performing in front of a crowd. They are learning how to win and lose, and that practice matters. They are meeting new people and sharing an activity with their parents.

    I could go on, but I won't, because there is an equally fine list of advantages to be gained from virtually any activity we can list (this is, of course, one reason people do them). Along the same lines, either of us can generate a list of possible negatives that might come from any of these activities. Good and bad, life is like that.

    The second issue is tougher to address. You seem to have an idea of what pageants are like, but my experiences are different.

    From our experiences the TYPICAL pageant family is a mom who thinks her kid is cute and a kid who thinks dressing up is fun. Seriously, that's really it. At most of these things the kids aren't sporting flippers or hair extentions or thousand dollar dresses. Most of the kids look like they haven't even practiced. They go up on stage, do whatever they do (usually very little), and then everyone cheers. I believe that most of the contests award something to everyone who enters, and pretty much everyone you see after the event leaves smiling.

    That's it.

    I have never, even once, seen anything creepy or disturbing. Obviously, no matter what the activity is, someone is gonna get nutty with it. Some parent is going to go full-tilt-boogie, and the higher you get in any activity the crazier the parents are likely to become. I'm sure pageants are no exception. And to be clear, we have never worked an elite national level competition, so we have likely missed to craziest of the lot.

    In any case, you have decided that these things are bad, and that they ultimately have a negative impact on kids. I won't try to alter your opinion. To be honest, I am not sure I disagree -- at least in theory. In an ideal society there are a lot of things that we might do differently or better. In that world we might, for example, disregard appearance entirely and instead assign value to other things. In that world we might honor only intellect, or compassion and empathy, or some other nobel ideal. We'd have to pretty much scrap everything we have now, but it might be nice.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Texas View Post
    skip....

    In an ideal society there are a lot of things that we might do differently or better. In that world we might, for example, disregard appearance entirely and instead assign value to other things. In that world we might honor only intellect, or compassion and empathy, or some other nobel ideal. We'd have to pretty much scrap everything we have now, but it might be nice.
    BINGO!!!! Thank you!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Texas View Post

    In any case, you have decided that these things are bad, and that they ultimately have a negative impact on kids. I won't try to alter your opinion. To be honest, I am not sure I disagree -- at least in theory. In an ideal society there are a lot of things that we might do differently or better. In that world we might, for example, disregard appearance entirely and instead assign value to other things. In that world we might honor only intellect, or compassion and empathy, or some other nobel ideal. We'd have to pretty much scrap everything we have now, but it might be nice.
    So basically what you're saying is: Beauty pageants are criticized because they focus on looks, and make them more important than intellect or values. But in our society, it's been proven that attractive people are treated better, more likely to get promoted, etc. We shouldn't tell our kids "Looks don't matter" because they definitely do.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by eileenhawkeye View Post
    So basically what you're saying is: Beauty pageants are criticized because they focus on looks, and make them more important than intellect or values. But in our society, it's been proven that attractive people are treated better, more likely to get promoted, etc. We shouldn't tell our kids "Looks don't matter" because they definitely do.
    I could have said that, and it would be objectively true, but I didn't go there. The reality is that appearance matters for boys and girls and men and women. It's almost impossible to overestimate how important this is -- it impacts every aspect of a person's life from the time they are infants all the way through to old age. It matters. This has been confirmed in experiment after experiment -- and yes, it even applies to infants.

    For kids, looks helps determine how popular you will be, how your teachers treat you and the grades you get, and even how your parents respond to you. Looks go a long way towards landing you that first job, and they help determine what that job is going to be. Tiffy the cheerleader gets to play hostess, Brenda from the school paper busses tables. And so it goes.

    If you happen to be the victim of a crime, or even accused of a crime, looks matter there as well. If you are the bad guy, male or female, the better you look the more likely you are to get away with it -- and if you are convicted you will generally get a lighter sentence. If you are charismatic enough you might even get a fan club. And if you are a crime victim -- say you are abducted -- you better hope you are a female, and bonus points for being white and pretty. For example, a quick look at first page of the "HOT CASES" section of this forum revealed the following list: Trayvon Martin (M), Rebecca Zahau Nalepa (F), Holly Bobo (F), Lauren Spierer (F), Susan Cox Powell (F), Allison Baden (F), Mickey Shunick (F), Lisa Irwin (F), Kyron Horman (M), and Lauren Spierer (F).

    So yeah, it matters. Maybe it's not fair, but that's reality. Nor is that "unfair" list limited to appearance. When it comes to life looks matter, wealth matters, parents matter, education matters... LUCK matters. Luck is the single most important determiner of basically everything in life. Even in the most competetive heads-up sports, where individual skill and dedication are said to matter most, professional athletes will tell you that luck was as important as anything else. For example, in football everyone misses the occassional tackle or misses a pass. Everyone. The difference between the best and worst on the field is a matter of a few percent at best. But if you are lucky enough to make the catch in the end zone that wins the game, you have just become the go-to guy. The quarterback looks your way first, the plays are designed around you, the TV people want to talk to you, and come contract time its "Show me the money!" But if you drop that pass or miss that tackle, something that anyone could have done, you just got bumped to also-ran. And let's take it a step further... it doesn't matter how fantastic you are at catching the ball if the guy throwing it isn't very good. And it doesn't matter how great he is at throwing the ball, if his blockers can't protect him long enough to have that chance. All of these things, all completely outside your control, determined if you were a sports legend and household name, or just another unknown guy on the field.

    The same applies to Hollywood, where tens of thousands of fantastic actors look for that one lucky role that not only showcases their talents, but catches fire with the public. They need the right script, the right directors and producers, the right sound guys, the right lighting director and cinematographer, the right production designer, a great editor, and if they have all that they need it to be the right story at the right time. Their job is to act and do their best, the rest is pitch and toss.

    But let's go back to talking about kids, and this case in particular.

    It's going on 17 YEARS now and this is still one of the most talked about cases in America. This case has it all. It's got mystery, it was never prosecuted and a lot of people wonder why, it features fabulously wealthy parents and privileged kids with the world at their feet, it even happened at Christmas! But most important, the victim was a beautiful little blonde-haired pageant princess...

    And she was sexually abused. That last provides the evil flame that keeps this case simmering. It's not just that her parents (or whoever) got away with killing her -- that happens once a week -- they also got away with abusing her.

    Which brings me, at long last, back to the beginning. Looks matter in life, and they matter in death. If you doubt it look no further than this case.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading


  11. #11
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    the PMPT threads are years old so I will link this book review by Joyce Carol Oates here

    June 24, 1999
    The expensive, ludicrous costumes the child has been made to wear are as much a part of the display as the child herself. Perhaps, for the mother who so obsessively displayed her, a former Miss West Virginia, the costumes were more important than the child for the signals they sent of an exhibitionist, aggressive "femininity." (One of JonBenét Ramsey's pageant songs was "I Wanna Be a Cowboy's Sweetheart." One of her routines was a mock striptease, the removal of a see-through skirt.)

    In the luridly titled A Mother Gone Bad,4 by the psychiatrist Andrew G. Hodges, there are paired photographs of JonBenét Ramsey and her mother, Patsy Ramsey, that vividly suggest how the child was the mother's fantasy. On one page we see JonBenét in a Vegas-style showgirl costume, dangling oversized earrings, spangled white satin cut high on her hips to emphasize her pelvis, white ostrich feathers flaring from her hips to showcase her exposed legs, a flotilla of enormous feathers fanning out from her head, and, on the facing page, here is the child's mother, Patsy, circa 1977, in a similar white satin showgirl costume with bared thighs, ostrich feathers at hips and head, dangling oversized earrings, and high-heeled shoes. In another pairing of photographs, a heavily made-up, thick-waisted Patsy Ramsey is glamorously posed in a low-cut, strapless, bizarrely striped gown with fringes over her breasts while facing her is a much prettier JonBenét in a short-skirted costume made of the same stripes, frozen in a stylized coquettish pose.

    Part of the power of JonBenét Ramsey as a symbolic presence in contemporary American consciousness is the paradox of what she, or her image, might mean. Is she Mommy's little girl dolled up to attract the male gaze as Mommy no longer can? Is she a defiant image, provoking male desire even as, with her undeveloped, seemingly asexual body, she can have no intention of satisfying it? Or is she a mockery of female sexiness, all makeup and costumes? Is she purely for show, thus pure? Is the perversity of her image exclusively in the eye of the beholder? The made-up face will remind many women of their own childish experiments with Mommy's makeup. (For which they were likely to be scolded, not encouraged.) There is the likelihood that JonBenét may remind women uncomfortably of their own adult faces, artfully "made up" to simulate fantasy images in others' and their own eyes.
    http://www.usfca.edu/jco/mysteryofjonbenetramsey/
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