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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    What kind of mental disorder is known for homicidal mass shootings?

    none???
    of course to say that they were "normal" makes no sense... moo

    "Most mass murderers are male, white, conservative and come from relatively stable, lower-middle-class backgrounds. They are not usually adopted, illegitimate or institutionalized as children."

    "There are three types of mass murderers, the family annihilators, the paramilitary enthusiasts, and the disgruntled workers. They all tend to be young, white, males with easy access to weapons. Unemployment, loneliness, a family breakup, or just a tongue lashing from a supervisor can trigger their deadly rage."

    "Most rampagers tend to save the last bullet for themselves. Those that don't are usually declared legally insane"

    http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/murder.html
    ~ my opinion only

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    Psychotic people are not irrational in every aspect of their thinking. They may think rationally about other subjects until they coincide with their specific delusion. For example: I cared for a very nice patient who was hospitalized approx 2 times each year for psychosis. He loved to play dominoes and chat about superficial topics. If you didn't mention the words "Navy, water, boat, US government or Veterans Hospital" you might never know that he was psychotic. Once the topic veered off the weather, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and other superficial topics, anyone could tell that he was very mentally ill. Before his medications began to work, he believed the psych unit was a locked submarine.

    I don't know what this killer's mental diagnosis should have been, but it is becoming obvious that he wasn't just autistic.
    I agree, and I would say that kids and adults with an ASD diagnosis and normal language development (I mostly work with kids with a language impairment) are NOT delusional. They just lack the social skills to communicate adequately about things outside their field of interest. Not sure if this makes sense - Pens knows way more than I do.
    always remembering

    Jacob Wetterling, missing from St. Joseph, Minnesota since October 22, 1989

    Jeanna North, missing from West Fargo, North Dakota since June 28, 1993

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by helpful View Post
    I agree, and I would say that kids and adults with an ASD diagnosis and normal language development (I mostly work with kids with a language impairment) are NOT delusional. They just lack the social skills to communicate adequately about things outside their field of interest. Not sure if this makes sense - Pens knows way more than I do.
    There haven't been a shred of information to suggest that AL was delusional.
    Just my opinion

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    What kind of mental disorder is known for homicidal mass shootings?
    Schizophrenia

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2908809/posts
    Jared Lee Loughner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...mitted-631148/

    *****Individuals with schizophrenia are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators of violence.
    Last edited by KateB; 06-20-2015 at 10:38 PM. Reason: repair url tag.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    There haven't been a shred of information to suggest that AL was delusional.
    No. But people have suggested that an ASD diagnosis was at the root of AL's issues, and I'm trying to point out that there was likely much more than just an autism spectrum disorder at play here.
    always remembering

    Jacob Wetterling, missing from St. Joseph, Minnesota since October 22, 1989

    Jeanna North, missing from West Fargo, North Dakota since June 28, 1993

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    There haven't been a shred of information to suggest that AL was delusional.
    Prodromal schizophrenia?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    Psychotic people are not irrational in every aspect of their thinking. They may think rationally about other subjects until they coincide with their specific delusion. For example: I cared for a very nice patient who was hospitalized approx 2 times each year for psychosis. He loved to play dominoes and chat about superficial topics. If you didn't mention the words "Navy, water, boat, US government or Veterans Hospital" you might never know that he was psychotic. Once the topic veered off the weather, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and other superficial topics, anyone could tell that he was very mentally ill. Before his medications began to work, he believed the psych unit was a locked submarine.

    I don't know what this killer's mental diagnosis should have been, but it is becoming obvious that he wasn't just autistic.
    BBM

    ITA that Austism on any level was not the sole issue.

    And I have seen amongst my own family members that "weird slip and slide" of irrational thought and rational thought. My heart goes out to your former patient.

    I guess I want a clear-cut answer of "he was this/he was that" because I am having a real problem reconciling how anyone could be so consciously hell-bent on slaughtering a group of little children who are huddled together and terrified.
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  8. #38
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    FootballMom is offline Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. MLKJr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
    There is a continuum of self-harm and the higher the behaviors are on this scale, the more likely the person is to have suicidal thoughts. Cutting and burning oneself are at the top of the scale. Biting, rubbing, and scratching are at the bottom.

    Some of the self-injurous behavior that autistic children exhibit are sensory integration dysfunction behaviors. My daughter was adopted from an orphanage. She exhibited two self-injurous behaviors during the first six months after her adoption (hair pulling and occasional head banging). The Early Intervention Program worked with her for several hours every week with their sensory integration methods and equipment. Her behavior was almost involuntary. Using a lighter to burn oneself is not an involuntary action.
    Hhmmm... interesting... It's getting late so I'm not going to go off grabbing links but I can provide personal first hand experience in a relatively short manner.

    I'm very familiar with self-injury (several methods from "high to low"). I tend to believe that while the risk of suicide may be greater than the average "healthy" population the overall risk is relatively lower than one might expect. It is usually an attempt to soothe an absence of or diminished ability to feel and of course a large dose of anxiety. I'll have to look into the stats and studies more tomorrow.

    I am sorry to hear about your daughter's sensory challenges. My son's sensory integration issues are no where near your daughters but I am familiar with the spectrum. We are very lucky that he is better able to cope as he has gotten older. You'd never know he has any challenges whatsoever until you try to cook a meal for him that he'd eat/enjoy, buy clothing, have him write something down (legibly) or transcribe notes from a chalk board to paper.

    I think it is possible he (AL) was either misdiagnosed when he was younger since childhood onset of schizophrenia is so very rare and that he presented with other rare traits... however I think it may be more likely as he got older that his Aspergers posed more problems than he was able to manage which in turn increased the likelihood of any number of personality disorders becoming extremely problematic.

    JMO... hoping we will eventually learn the full extent and factual diagnosis.
    Last edited by FootballMom; 12-17-2012 at 03:04 AM.

  9. #39
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    As far as I know, not a single person said AL was hearing voices or was delusional. So I have no idea as to why we'd be "diagnosing" him with childhood onset schizophrenia. I saw a TV show about a child with early onset schizophrenia. That child had a whole bunch of delusions.
    I don't see anything to suggest AL had a whole bunch of delusions.
    Just my opinion

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FootballMom View Post
    Hhmmm... interesting... It's getting late so I'm not going to go off grabbing links but I can provide personal first hand experience in a relatively short manner.

    I'm very familiar with self-injury (several methods from "high to low"). I tend to believe that while the risk of suicide may be greater than the average "healthy" population the overall risk is relatively lower than one might expect. It is usually an attempt to soothe an absence of or diminished ability to feel and of course a large dose of anxiety. I'll have to look into the stats and studies more tomorrow.

    I am sorry to hear about your daughter's sensory challenges. My son's sensory integration issues are no where near your daughters but I am familiar with the spectrum. We are very lucky that he is better able to cope as he has gotten older. You'd never know he has any challenges whatsoever until you try to cook a meal for him that he'd eat/enjoy, buy clothing, have him write something down (legibly) or transcribe notes from a chalk board to paper.

    I think it is possible he was either misdiagnosed when he was younger since childhood onset of schizophrenia is so very rare and that he presented with other rare traits... however I think it may be more likely as he got older that his Aspergers posed more problems than he was able to manage which in turn increased the likelihood of any number of personality disorders becoming extremely problematic.

    JMO... hoping we will eventually learn the full extent and factual diagnosis.
    Thank you for your kind words. My sensory seeking daughter was adopted into a family with 3 older brothers, so she quickly adjusted. The only remnant I can see at this time is the occupying of the bathroom to brush and straighten her hair obsessively, but that might be normal for most teen girls in a humid climate. lol


  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    I think his symptoms all appear to fit Aspergers. So what makes you think he was misdiagnosed? Assuming that what he was diagnosed with, since we don't even know that for sure.
    I'd just like to continue to preface this as unqualified. I am not a mental health professional, merely a neuroscience major.

    Primarily, the younger you go in reports of people who knew him, the more "normalized" they interpreted his behavior. In my unqualified experience, forms of HFA such as Aspergers tend to become easier to mask outwardly as children mature into adults and young adults. Especially if they are in school and receiving specific therapies. It's my impression that his symptoms seemed to intensify as he matured, which leads me to other neurological variances.

    I do agree that certain symptoms line up, but that's the things about neurology- a lot of different inputs can result in the same output and vice versa. Only a qualified professional who worked with him for some time could adequately answer this question IMO. Which is why I am trying to tread carefully and speak without authority.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    Not a single person said AL was hearing voices or was delusional.
    Yep.

    Because no one has mentioned seeing this killer outside of his home for years and his brother and dad hadn't visited with him in 2 years, this might forever be an "unknown".

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    As far as I know, not a single person said AL was hearing voices or was delusional. So I have no idea as to why we'd be "diagnosing" him with childhood onset schizophrenia. I saw a TV show about a child with early onset schizophrenia. That child had a whole bunch of delusions.
    I don't see anything to suggest AL had a whole bunch of delusions.
    Prodromal stage of schizophrenia symptoms-early warning signs which include:

    Extreme reaction to criticism
    Social withdrawal
    Deterioration of personal hygiene
    Forgetful; unable to concentrate
    Oversleeping or insomnia
    Flat, expressionless gaze
    Depression
    Inability to cry or express joy
    Inappropriate laughter or crying
    Odd or irrational statements
    Hostility or suspiciousness
    Strange use of words or way of speaking

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
    As far as I know, not a single person said AL was hearing voices or was delusional. So I have no idea as to why we'd be "diagnosing" him with childhood onset schizophrenia. I saw a TV show about a child with early onset schizophrenia. That child had a whole bunch of delusions.
    I don't see anything to suggest AL had a whole bunch of delusions.
    With all due respect, at this point we don't know if AL received enough professional assessment to indicate if he was hallucinating or delusional.

    IF, and it's a big IF, NL was trying to handle the situation mostly on her own, she may not have pursued enough professional intervention to know the exact level of his possible mental illness.

    Or he may have been so non-compliant that she couldn't force the issue. Once he was 18, he could not be compelled to seek and maintain treatment. Trust me on ugliness of the "adult non-compliance issue."
    Last edited by CatMama3; 12-17-2012 at 03:18 AM. Reason: added my own stuff at end
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  15. #45
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    He has such an unusual look to him. People with schizophrenia look just like everybody else.
    It wouldn't surprise me if he had some genetic condition.
    Just my opinion

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