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  1. #1
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    "Adventurous woman" sought to serve as surrogate mother to Neanderthal clone baby

    ‘Adventurous’ Woman Needed as Surrogate for Neanderthal Baby (Gawker)
    Are you an adventurous human woman? Adventurous enough to be a surrogate mother for the first Neanderthal baby to be born in 30,000 years?

    Harvard geneticist George Church recently told Der Spiegel he's close to developing the necessary technology to clone a Neanderthal, at which point all he'd need is an "adventurous human woman" — einen abenteuerlustigen weiblichen Menschen — to act as a surrogate mother.
    ---
    What would that entail? According to a 2008 study of a Neanderthal infant skeleton "the head of the Neanderthal newborn was somewhat longer than that of a human newborn because of its relatively robust face," and Neanderthal women generally had a wider birth canal than human women.

    Neanderthal birth was simpler than human birth, because Neanderthal infants didn't have to rotate to get to the birth canal, but otherwise the processes were very similar.
    ---
    Church seems to think that there'll be a Neanderthal craze, as he told Bloomberg Businessweek last year:

    "Let's say someone has a healthy, normal Neanderthal baby. Well, then, everyone will want to have a Neanderthal kid. Were they superstrong or supersmart? Who knows? But there's one way to find out."
    more, including links to MIT and Der Spiegel at the link above

  2. #2
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    :laughtilicry:
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  3. #3
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    Twenty years ago, I would so have put my hand up and shouted, "Me! Me!"

    Though we'll of course not be able to tell what Neanderthal culture was all about (and so miss out on much of what defined them) - we will at least know for sure what their physiology entailed.

    This guy sounds like a real todger, however. I hope he allows the child a loving environment, not just a scientific side show. Poor kid will have the world staring at him all his life..

  4. #4
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    Cloning humans is illegal in most countries. Cloning a neanderthal would probably (or should) be illegal as well.

    Most all Caucasians and Asians have Neanderthal ancestors way back in the family tree (up to 4% neanderthal dna) which means to treat Neanderthal's as a "non-human" could be a HUGE subject of debate. It opens up a lot of questions regarding ethics. I suspect the Harvard scientist that is advertising this KNOWS all of that and this is some type of publicity stunt.

    If anyone wonders WHY cloning humans is illegal it is because cloning is a messy business that produces a HIGH number of deformed fetuses. With non-human animals they simply kill the mistakes though in some cases the animal may seem fine but then have serious problems early in life.

    That is one reason I think the people that spend $50k to clone their "beloved dead pets" are unfeeling monsters. Who in their right mind would want to create exact duplicates of their beloved animal KNOWING that chances are some will be horribly deformed and destroyed.

    If they allowed human cloning then crazy people would ALSO try to clone their deceased children and some probably wouldn't be bothered by the fact some fetuses/babies "exactly like their dead child" will be deemed "too deformed to be allowed to live" or will be born so deformed they die shortly after birth, they will just want the "perfect copy".
    Last edited by Sonya610; 01-18-2013 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #5
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    The thought experiment turns more intriguing when the subject of Neanderthals comes up.
    http://www.businessweek.com/articles...than-you-think
    November 01, 2012

    He's got a new book out, I might check it out just to see what he has to say when I have time to read for pleasure again.

    This article reads slightly different:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-877634.html

    English version of actual interview. Definitely a thought experiment. He's a hoot and I am going to get that book for sure!

    Off topic but this quote caught my eye and I'm intrigued:

    SPIEGEL: Let's go through a couple of different applications of synthetic biology. How long will it take, for example, until we can fill our tanks with fuel that has been produced using synthentic microbes?

  6. #6
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    I can't even imagine the issues this kid would have.
    It's my opinion if no link provided.


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  7. #7
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    Neanderthal birth was simpler than human birth, because Neanderthal infants didn't have to rotate to get to the birth canal, but otherwise the processes were very similar.
    I'm a dude who has never been in a delivery room, but that sounds like one hell of a difference to me! Ladies?

  8. #8
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    NOW do you believe us? Two men experience the agony of labour for TV show... but give up after just two hours (lucky they don't have to do it for real!)

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...#ixzz2INp60WUt
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


    I've given birth to three children and there is NO WAY I would do this!

    jmo

    ETA - In response to Nova above.
    Last edited by mikkismom; 01-18-2013 at 10:10 PM. Reason: forgot quote
    No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. - 1 Corinthians 10:13 (NIV)

    We are all one poor choice from being a subject on this forum. Think twice.

  9. #9
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    mikkismom, I have never doubted that if men had to give birth, the species would die out rather quickly. I mean it.

    I always took Carol Burnett at her word: "Giving birth is like grabbing your upper lip and pulling it back over your head."

    And on a personal note, it had been the custom in my family for women to shrug and say, "Oh, childbirth is uncomfortable, but as soon as the baby arrives, you forget all the pain!"

    After the birth of her first child, my sister called me and screamed, "What the hell were they talking about?!" (I'm not sure she used the word "hell".)

  10. #10
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    It would have to be a Caesarian birth, no question. And I'd still so do it.

    The thing I'd imagine would be difficult about surrogacy is blood type and possible autoimmune reactions.

    I don't care about any moral high grounds here, every pharmacy in the world is stacked to the top shelf with untold animal suffering and death, it's not great (it's awful, really) but that's the price of medical research as things stand.

    So - what to name him (or her!)?


  11. #11
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    Uh this is weird. Didn't they discover Neanderthal humans had smaller brains so they should technically be less intelligent? What is the point of bringing that into the world? There is a reason why our species have evolved since that point. It is a human being not a scientific experiment. It is not okay to poke and prod it and not let it live a normal live. This scientist doesn't want an "adventurous" woman he wants someone that doesn't care about the pain and heartache the child would be put through most likely. Yikes. Also Neanderthals had much thicker skull bones then we do now, no way that's going through your birth canal.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzn16 View Post
    Uh this is weird. Didn't they discover Neanderthal humans had smaller brains so they should technically be less intelligent? What is the point of bringing that into the world? There is a reason why our species have evolved since that point.
    Do some research into Cro-Magnon man....the humans that survived in the brutal inhospitable areas of the world during the ice-age 30,000 years ago. Evidence suggests they were smarter and stronger than modern humans, they were "supermen" compared to contemporary humans. They could not depend on the "collective" intelligence of others for survival, they had to depend on their OWN individual brains and skills.

    Threats lessen and the living environment and climate gets easier and organisms WILL get weaker and less intelligent as a response when those factors do not determine who survives.

  13. #13
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    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal"]Neanderthal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    The first humans with proto-Neanderthal traits are believed to have existed in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

    Current scientific literature prefers the term "European Early Modern Humans" (or EEMH), instead of "Cro-Magnon". The oldest definitely dated EEMH specimen is the Grotta del Cavallo tooth dated in 2011 to at least 43,000 years old.[2]
    It's my opinion if no link provided.


    Misspellings due to fat fingers

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  14. #14
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    We didn't 'evolve from' Neanderthals. They were an offshoot of humanity's tree, like Cromagnon man, from whom we probably -did- evolve. However, our ancestors did interbreed with them in some locations, suggesting that modern humans and neanderthals were not too diverse genetically. Like wolves and modern dogs - branches of the same tree.

    From Wiki:

    Genetic research has confirmed that some admixture took place.[89] The genomes of all non-Africans include portions that are of Neanderthal origin,[90][91] due to interbreeding between Neanderthals and the ancestors of Eurasians in Northern Africa or the Middle East prior to their spread. Rather than absorption of the Neanderthal population, this gene flow appears to have been of limited duration and limited extent. An estimated 1 to 4 percent of the DNA in Europeans and Asians (French, Chinese and Papua probands) is non-modern, and shared with ancient Neanderthal DNA rather than with Sub-Saharan Africans (Yoruba and San probands).[92] Nonetheless, more recent genetic studies seem to suggest that modern humans may have mated with "at least two groups" of ancient humans: Neanderthals and Denisovans.[93]

    There were quite a few offshoots in our evolutionary tree but Homo sapiens (us) is the only one that survived (unless the cryptozoologists are right and there's bigfoots [bigfeet?] and other primitive offshoots still running about somewhere).

    Neanderthals also were not 'sub' human at all, though they were a little shorter. They certainly did not have smaller brains. From Wikipedia again:

    Neanderthal cranial capacity is thought to have been as large as that of modern humans, perhaps larger, indicating that their brain size may have been comparable, or larger, as well. In 2008, a group of scientists created a study using three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria. The study showed Neanderthal and modern human brains were the same size at birth, but by adulthood, the Neanderthal brain was larger than the modern human brain.[9] They were much stronger than modern humans, having particularly strong arms and hands.[10] Males stood 164–168 cm (65–66 in) and females about 152–156 cm (60–61 in) tall
    And seeing as 2/3 of the world's kids don't have enough food or clean water, and a good percentage of the remainder will suffer child abuse of some kind before they reach 18, being a weird little Neanderthal clone with a pile of people interested in keeping him happy and healthy would not be all that bad in comparison, imo.

    I think this thread has made me clucky.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    We didn't 'evolve from' Neanderthals. They were an offshoot of humanity's tree, like Cromagnon man, from whom we probably -did- evolve.
    Cromagnon is a label used to define the development and emergence of modern European humans during the ice age around 50,000 years ago. Cromagnon didn't disappear, modern day Europeans are their descendants, really not much as changed except most of us are not as physically strong and crafty as our ice-age ancestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    And seeing as 2/3 of the world's kids don't have enough food or clean water, and a good percentage of the remainder will suffer child abuse of some kind before they reach 18, being a weird little Neanderthal clone with a pile of people interested in keeping him happy and healthy would not be all that bad in comparison, imo.
    It would be way more complicated than just raising the weird little Neanderthal clone in a happy laboratory. With education the Neanderthal would be as intelligent and complex as many "modern" humans, as an adult the issue of relationships and partners would surely come up, interspecies marriage/offspring would be highly likely.

    Trust me the scientific community would never let this get started, well....some countries might consider trying it but only if they could see some monetary or military value in it.

    The abuse and "research" that could be spawned by something like that would be an ethical nightmare. If they even think about doing it in the U.S. then we need to start on the "Neanderthal Civil Rights Legislation" now as they will be demanding equal rights and facing discrimination. On the other hand it would surely peeve a lot of people off so maybe there would be an upside to this!
    Last edited by Sonya610; 01-19-2013 at 11:29 AM.

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