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  1. #1

    Dr. Lee on duct tape in Ramsey case

    Very interesting comments by Dr. Henry Lee on duct tape tested in the Ramsey case on Larry King Live tonight:

    http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/03/lkl.00.html


    KURTIS: Dr. Lee, didn't you take a look at some tape in the JonBenet Ramsey case, reexamine it?

    LEE: Yes. Yes, I did. Yes.

    KURTIS: And there was nothing became of that.

    LEE: Well, that's a two-inch tape and it's been used. It's not like the Laci Peterson case, which, as I say, I cannot comment too much on that.

  2. #2
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    is Dr. Lee implying that the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth had been used for something else before it was put on her?


    If this murder was committed by an intruder/intruders., they didn't come very well equipped did they? They used Patsy's pad and pen to write the RN, and they bring a piece of "used" 2" duct tape (that happen to have fibers consistant with Patsy's jacket) to commit this crime?..................To quote the "Church Lady" from SNL......."Well isn't that special"

  3. #3
    Good question Paige. I'm not sure. I thought he meant by "used", that it had been used on JB, but duct tape would have been "used" on Laci as well, I'm not sure.

  4. #4
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    Duct tape is used for packaging. I have always thought that if the duct tape had come from some packaging, then it would have to have been taken from something like polythene to have maintained a degree of its stickiness. Most of my fabric suppliers fold the fabric into a bundle and stick it in a plastic bag, but one of them rollls the fabric up on a cardboard roll and then wraps it in polythene and then secures it with duct tape.
    This is only my opinion

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  5. #5
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    Sounds to me like Dr. Lee is saying that the tape on JB's mouth was previously used; the tape on Laci came freshly off the roll.

    Duct tape is so versatile. In working with teens a few years ago, we divided up onto teams and they each duct taped one of their teammates to a wall. Pretty fun stuff. LOL

  6. #6
    MaxiGuest
    That's my take on it, too, but it's very hard to tell with Dr. Lee. He might have meant something like, "It was a two inch tape that was used in the JBR case, and another type used in the Laci case." Did anyone actually hear the broadcast?

    One of the funnest things to do is to turn on closed caption while Dr. Lee is speaking. He drives most transcribers crazy, and they come up with some very funny stuff.

  7. #7
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    The duct tape in the JBR case was newly manufactured: this was determined by analysis of the fibers and the adhesive since the plant had mad changes in the manufacturing process but as is common in industry it had first changed the fibers and then after five weeks of no production problems it then changed the adhesive formula. The tape was manufactured at some point in time during this five weeks making it not impossible but highly unlikely that the tape had ever been used for something else, although it might have been 'carried' by being stuck to something.

  8. #8
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    Where is the Twinn Doll factory?
    This is only my opinion

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  9. #9
    A representitive from ShurTape, the type of duct tape used in the Ramsey case (and maybe also in the Peterson case) was on Greta last night:

    Greta: Back now live from Modesto. Tonight, unconfirmed reports say duct tape found near Laci and Conner's bodies is similar to tape used to post missing posters when Laci first vanished. And that's not all. KTVU-TV reports Scott Peterson's fingerprint was found on the missing poster tape.

    Joining us on the phone is the quality assurance manager for the manufacturer of a brand of duct tape called Duck Tape. Carter MacFarland's company is called SurTape Technologies. Also back with us is forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden.

    Carter, if I gave you two pieces of duct tape, could you compare them and determine them to be from the same roll?

    Carter McFarland, ShurTape: I could look at the two different types and determine if they had similar patterns between the two and the film and the cloth and the adhesive.

    Greta: How unique is duct tape? I mean, if I handed you just a simple piece of duct tape, can you tell me whether or not it's duct tape, for instance, that your company manufactures?

    Carter McFarland: Well, going through and looking at, actually, the film itself, looking at the color, the texture, the type of film it is and the layers of the film, as well as what the cloth is made of, if it's a woven or a knit cloth, and analyzing the cloth that's in the tape, as well as the adhesive, you can determine a particular manufacturer for a tape.

    Greta: Carter, is duct tape unique, in the sense that the type of duct tape you manufacture, for instance, is unique from a duct tape that another manufacturer might make?

    Carter McFarland: Yes, it would be. Different manufacturers have different technologies. They use different type of films, as well as different type of cloths, as well as the adhesives have some different characteristics also.

    Greta: All right, Carter. If I, in terms of an entire roll of duct tape, are the sort of signature aspects of the duct tape ,are they consistent throughout the entire roll, so you could tell whether or not a piece of tape came from a particular roll?

    Carter McFarland: Yes, there would be some similarities that would be throughout that roll.

    Greta: But how do you know that it's not just simply, if I gave you two pieces of tape, how do you know if it came from one roll or it simply came from two different rolls manufactured by your company?

    Carter McFarland: You really would have to take the two samples and analyze them and, you know, look for the similarities between the two. It's difficult to tell without actually looking at the samples themselves.

    Greta: But if you do have the samples, can you do it with a reasonable level of certainty?

    Carter McFarland: With a reasonable level of certainty, yes.

    Greta: Can you give me odds?

    Carter McFarland: It would be difficult for me to, you know, give you a percentage.

    Greta: Dr. Baden, what do you make of, you've done a lot of forensic study of the duct tape, you know, the fact that if you got two pieces, one around Laci and Conner and one on a poster. Don't know if they're the same.

    Dr. Baden: I think, Greta, what we're seeing is the difference between science and the criminal justice system, with the hair, as well as with the duct tape. As Geoffrey said, when you put a case into court, as you've said, you build a case with many different pieces of evidence, none of which may be 100 percent specific. The mitochondrial dna isn't 100 percent specific in the hair, but taken together with the history, with the circumstances, with the Amber Frey tapes, with the duct tape, which may not be 100 percent, but if the duct tape matches, if the hair matches, if all the circumstances match, then it's unlikely that it's somebody else's hair in the boat. How it got there is something else, but I think that

    Greta: All right.

    Dr. Baden: It sounds like there, it will be important evidence, the duct tape.

    Greta: All right. Carter, thank you. And now back to our expert panel.

    All right, let me go to you, Bernie. I mean, the thing that sort of, that concerns me about the tape is that, you know, even as Dr. Baden says, as you put these little pieces together, you know, it may build a case against someone, but at some point, if you put really unreliable pieces together, it would be unfair to an accused.

    Bernie Grimm: It would be unfair. And listening to Mr. MacFarland, you did a great job. It reminds me of the heydays, Greta, back in the '60s or '70s, whenever you were practicing, where you used to just annihilate experts.

    Greta: The '80s, thank you, Bernie! Bernie, '80s...

    Bernie Grimm: All right. I was just trying to get back at you for kicking me off the show on Friday. But at any rate, I saw you annihilate experts, and Mr. MacFarland, you were very nice to him, but all he's essentially said is if this tape is, for example, from 3M, and I'm not saying it's from 3M, essentially, I can say it's 3M tape, Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing, I can't say it is on this same roll. You gave him 17 different ways to Sunday to get it out, but he couldn't.

    What Dr. Baden would talk about, I think, that's more important, is that adhesive tape, and especially duct tape, is very, very durable, even if it's in the water for the longest period of time.

    Dr. Baden: Yes.

    Carter McFarland: It could have hair on it. It could have fingerprints on it. But here's the thing that connects it all. And you talked about the first question to me was, Let's say the evidence is unreliable. Geoff's point, when we started the show, is so riveting, that they will despise Scott Peterson at the end of this trial so much, they almost will virtually ignore the evidence, whether it's good or bad, and perhaps convict him, whether he's innocent or not, is the frightening thing.

    Greta: Gloria, what do you think of this duct tape?

    Gloria Allred: Well, I mean, I think if, as and when it's introduced as evidence, and the reports are that it's not expected to be introduced at the preliminary hearing. But if it is, it'll be yet just another piece of evidence, and the jury will weigh its value, what weight it should give to that piece of evidence.

    Greta: But even before it gets there...

    Gloria Allred: And it won't be the only,I don't agree that there's going to be any smoking gun bombshell from...

    Greta: But wait a second. Wait a second, Gloria. Even before it gets to the jury, the judge has to make a determination that it doesn't have some sort of wild prejudicial impact that outweighs whatever value it has to prove something. And simply the fact you have duct tape, there's lots of duct tape in this world. You know, there's, the judge may conclude that the jury would wildly connect this and that it's unreasonable.

    Gloria Allred: I don't think that this is the kind of evidence that the judge would make a determination is more prejudicial than probative, which is the standard.

    Greta: Geoff?

    Geoffrey Fieger: I suspect that Bernie's wife tapes him up every night when he goes home.

    Carter McFarland: Oh, Gee!

    Geoffrey Fieger: But beyond that, I think this is the type of evidence, based on what I've just heard, that a judge might very well exclude, if the attempt was being made to suggest that this tape is the same as another tape, without some really compelling scientific basis. But let's remember, for instance, that it wasn't too long ago, it was within our careers, that people were convicted based upon their blood type. For instance, if blood type O was found at the scene and the alleged perpetrator had blood type O, even though 50 million other people have it, or 2 billion, that evidence was allowed, and the jury was allowed to consider whether the accused was the perpetrator.

  10. #10
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    Jayelles, their website has this address listed, although I don't know if this is actually where the dolls are made:

    "Write us at:
    My Twinn
    P.O. Box 5700
    Denver, CO 80217"

    Toth, if the tape were "carried" by something, do you think that is why fibers consistent with Patsy's jacket were found on it? Couldn't resist saying that to you.


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    Originally posted by Nehemiah
    Toth, if the tape were "carried" by something, do you think that is why fibers consistent with Patsy's jacket were found on it?
    I don't think Patsy Ramsey saw any particular need to put duct tape on her clothing. What about the fibers that are found only in the vicinity of the crime and nowhere else in the house? Were those from the duct tape too?

  12. #12
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    How do you suppose Patsy's fibers get on the duct tape Toth? Were they flying around the Ramsey home and just happened to land on the duct tape? Or maybe they were on the floor next to the body and attached themselves to the tape when John pulled it off?

  13. #13
    ajt400Guest
    Originally posted by Sabrina
    How do you suppose Patsy's fibers get on the duct tape Toth? Were they flying around the Ramsey home and just happened to land on the duct tape? Or maybe they were on the floor next to the body and attached themselves to the tape when John pulled it off?
    Weel, fibers have been known to fly through the air. How else would they get transmitted?

  14. #14
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    Candy, I'm so glad you posted Dr. Lee's comment. I heard it last night. I knew it had been reported as "used" in the past - but now, it's official.

    The duct tape on JonBenet was 2" and USED.

    So what if it was recently manufactured - it had been used prior to being placed over JonBenet's mouth. And, reportedly, it was after she was dead.

    No one can tell me an intruder brought used tape into the house. The roll easily could've been used up from whatever it was bought for prior; hence, a used piece.

    How horrible it must've been, putting a used piece of duct tape over your dead daughter's mouth in creating a crime scene.
    IMO -

  15. #15
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    2" of of tape isn't very long. Surely if the perp had the whole roll he'd use a bit more than that? Think, if you were cutting a piece of tape to put over someone's mouth - wouldn't you make it extend a bit on either side?

    I've never done this BTW (been tempted a few times....:-)) but II think of films where a victim has been gagged like this and the gag usually goes across to the cheeks.
    This is only my opinion

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