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  1. #1
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    The Suitcase - Duvet, Sham & Dr. Suess

    At the request of OM4U, this thread is for discussion about the relevance of the suitcase found in the train room, which contained a duvet and sham identified as belonging to JAR, along with a Dr. Seuss book.

    The question is: how much of the crime itself can be attached to the suitcase and it's contents? Could any or all of it have been used at various steps throughout the crime, or was it brought in as staging after JB's death?
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

  2. #2
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    Well, I'll go first. Since it was reported that JR said he read JB a bedtime story, I see this as a potential association with this book... especially, since he later changed the story, which IMO, could be seen as him distancing himself from the book. moo

  3. #3
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    you'd think that when molestation happens the perpetrator wouldn't use his room or the childs room when doing it....maybe it all happened in JAR's room?
    maybe these are some of the items they wanted to get rid of ?(along with the body)
    maybe he thought the suitcase would fit through the broken window?


    I read a RUMOR somewhere that JR gave FW a box with items through the broken window that morning....
    The rice is already cooked...

  4. #4
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    It has always felt like staging to me.
    I consider the suitcase itself to be staging. And staging is meant to be noticed by authories, so I suspect that the contents were either unknown to the stager or also meant to be found by authorities. A duvet from JAR might be a sensible choice because it may contain trace evidence of someone from outside the house.
    And the book I feel has no relation to the actual crime. I suspect it was placed there to suggest it was used as a lure or something to that effect.

  5. #5
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    DeeDee, MM and everyone,

    First of all, thank you MM for opening separate thread!!!
    Secondly, let's make sure everyone familiar with the FACTS and available Informations so we can have productive discussions.

    FACTS, INFORMATION, INTERVIEWS

    1. JB shirt and items in suitcase (duvet/sham) have forensic connection

    Steve Thomas Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia)
    Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Action File No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
    (Fiber Discussion)

    8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
    9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces
    10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and
    11 CBI, were trying to source.
    12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not
    13 been able to do so, true?
    14 A. That's my understanding.
    15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
    16 with a conclusion that there was a
    17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
    18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
    19 JonBenet's body
    or were consistent with, is
    20 that the right term?
    21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
    22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever
    23 offer a report or an explanation concerning
    24 that.
    25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the

    247
    1 CBI, didn't they?

    2 A. On what point?
    3 Q. On the question of whether there
    4 were fibers inside materials found in the
    5 suitcase found under the window in the
    6 basement consistent with fibers found on
    7 JonBenet?
    8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
    9 position or stating this consistency of these
    10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
    11 between the FBI and that finding.
    ...from another source....

    The suitcase contained a pillow sham, duvet and Dr. Seuss book. These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase. (SMF P 146; PSMF P 146.) A lab report indicated that fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt that JonBenet was wearing when she was found in the wine cellar. (SMF P 147; PSMF P 147.)" (Carnes 2003:Note 32).
    2. When suitcase was placed in basement?

    John Ramsey has testified that he, himself, took suitcase into the basement and store it in room close to the laundry. He has no knowledge what was inside of suitcase and he has no idea what 'duvet' means.

    JR interview June, 1998 (Police Files)

    JR...12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have
    13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
    14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all
    15 the way back there and put it against the window.
    16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a
    17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.
    18 It was right up against the wall?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
    20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that
    21 down. When did you?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months
    23 before, two months before
    . It was one of these big
    24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids
    25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older
    0155
    1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't
    2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to
    3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.
    4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the
    5 laundry room.
    I remember taking it downstairs to
    6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in
    7 this room here.
    ........
    1 LOU SMIT: And I would like to ask
    2 you just some questions. Do you know what a
    3 sham is or a duvet?

    4 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
    5 LOU SMIT: Two type of things?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: Sham is a blanket,
    7 right? But duvet, I don't know.

    8 LOU SMIT: Do you recall any shams
    9 or duvets being in your house? I know if you
    10 don't know what a duvet is, you probably don't
    11 know to say it was in there but --
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
    13 A sham, I mean I don't know if I
    14 know what a sham was, a small blanket. That's
    15 purely a guess, but we had lots of little
    16 blankets and stuff like that around.

    17 LOU SMIT: How about a Dr. Suess
    18 book, do you remember anything in a Dr. Suess
    19 book, either associated with John Andrew or
    20 associated with JonBenet or anything that --
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had lots of
    22 kids' books. We had bookshelves full of them.
    23 I know that they had -- I know I read to 'em,
    24 Dr. Suess books, so I am sure they were there.
    25 LOU SMIT: Do you know why there
    0714
    1 would be a sham and duvet and a Dr. Suess book
    2 in that suitcase?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell me
    4 what a duvet is?
    5 LOU SMIT: A duvet is also
    6 something that fits on like on a couch or almost
    7 a little blanket that fits on a couch.
    8 JOHN RAMSEY: A square or does it
    9 fit?
    10 LOU SMIT: Yes. I have never seen
    11 this, I don't have a photograph of it, but can
    12 you think of why there would be a sham or duvet
    13 in John Andrew's suitcase along with a Dr. Suess
    14 book?

    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. My recollection
    16 of where that suitcase came from was he brought
    17 some clothes from Atlanta, where he went to
    18 school, and when the kid left to go to school be
    19 and every port in a storm in his apartment, and
    20 it ended up and it was in his room for a while,
    21 then it was in the laundry room outside of his
    22 room for a while, and then I carried it
    23 downstairs.
    I presumed it was empty.

    24 LOU SMIT: I appreciate if you
    25 wouldn't just talk to John Andrew about that
    0715
    1 right now. I would like to ask him that.
    2 JOHN RAMSEY: You want me to talk
    3 to him right now
    4 LOU SMIT: We can talk to him
    5 either today or tomorrow, that's fine.
    3. When JB wore the Gap shirt?

    Patsy Ramsey Interview, April 1997, Police Files.

    TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she wearing actually to the White’s house like?
    PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pant, cause I was wearing black velvet paths and it was Christmas and all that.
    TT: Um hum.
    PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
    TT: Kind of a crew neck?
    PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
    TT: Okay.
    PR: So I just left that on her.
    ...from another PR interview, PR

    20 TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 386, it is the
    21 article of clothing on the right of the picture. What
    22 belt?
    23 PATSY RAMSEY: Little Gap belt.

    24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: She would have worn to the
    0464
    1 White's. I can't tell where the (inaudible). The ones
    2 that (inaudible). Zip up. These kind of look like a
    3 plastic waist. I can't tell.
    Now, when you know the FACTS and available Informations, let's talk how the context of the suitcase could relates to JBR murder.
    Last edited by OpenMind4U; 02-13-2013 at 12:50 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    DeeDee, MM and everyone,

    First of all, thank you MM for opening separate thread!!!
    Secondly, let's make sure everyone familiar with the FACTS so we can have productive discussions.

    FACTS

    1. JB shirt and items in suitcase (duvet/sham) have forensic connection



    ...from another source....



    2. When suitcase was placed in basement?

    John Ramsey has testified that he, himself, took suitcase into the basement and store it in room close to the laundry. He has no knowledge what was inside of suitcase and he has no idea what 'duvet' means.

    JR interview June, 1998 (Police Files)



    3. When JB wore the Gap shirt?

    Patsy Ramsey Interview, April 1997, Police Files.



    ...from another PR interview, PR



    Now, when you know the FACTS, let's talk how the context of the suitcase could relates to JBR murder.
    Have to disagree with you on #2. Just because John said he took the suitcase to the basement months before does not make it a fact.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for taking the time to give us such good starting points with your reference postings, OM4U.

    Just to add my opinion, while the statements you posted are what we in the public know with regard to the suitcase, etc., only the forensic testing done can be considered factual, because it can be scientifically validated. Also, photo evidence can be trusted as fact, I believe.

    The other statements as to where the suitcase came from, who used it, what it was used for, how it got into the basement, when it got into the basement, and where it was placed in the basement are all pieces of information straight from the mouths of the Ramseys, mostly JR. Patsy did also offer some comments about it being and OLD suitcase that she saw by the boiler room, while JR stated (more than once) it was a NEW suitcase. (Husband will ask, "Did you get a new sweater?" - he doesn't remember seeing it before recently, and wife will say, "What, this old thing?" - cause she's had it 6 months and worn it 3 times. Ends up OLD and NEW is a matter of opinion, so I have to discount their take on the age of the suitcase.)

    Same thing with JB's clothing. Patsy gave the statements. Doesn't say exactly when they shopped, and where the Gap outfit was laid for storage before it went onto JB. Or if it was in her closet, or a drawer, or still in the shopping bag. All we really know for sure (pictures have confirmed) she wore the top/outfit to the Whites, and she was found dead in it.

    I think it will be important for us to remember there is a difference between the evidence that is a fact, and the evidence that is based on Ramsey statements. Anything that cannot be forensically or photographically validated should be considered speculation, and therefore subject to judgement of whether it is the truth or a lie. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation is usually coupled with fact as the basis of us being able to come up with theories or scenarios which stimulate all of us to keep looking for more answers.

    The bumps in the road of this crime are numerous, thanks to the lies of the Ramseys, but we must keep going if we hope to get to our destination = Justice4JonBenet!
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nom de plume View Post
    Have to disagree with you on #2. Just because John said he took the suitcase to the basement months before does not make it a fact.
    LOL....of course not!!!! A lot of LIES were getting from Ramseys mouth....but as of today, our discussions should be based on what we know, what was documented, what was available for us....not rumors like JR was giving FW some staff through the basement window.....this the point I'm trying to make! We can speculate but based on FACTS (see above post).

    jmo

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMind4U View Post
    LOL....of course not!!!! A lot of LIES were getting from Ramseys mouth....but as of today, our discussions should be based on what we know, what was documented, what was available for us....not rumors like JR was giving FW some staff through the basement window.....this the point I'm trying to make! We can speculate but based on FACTS (see above post).

    jmo
    I'm confused. In your above post you stated:

    FACTS

    1. JB shirt and items in suitcase (duvet/sham) have forensic connection

    2. When suitcase was placed in basement?

    3. When JB wore the Gap shirt?

    That looks like to me you belive all three of these things are facts. Sorry if I misunderstood.

  10. #10
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    Pr said the gap outfit JB wore to the Whites had a belt. Kind of off course pertaining to this thread, but I wonder if she could have first been strangled with the belt, and if it was taken as evidence ........or did it just disappear?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwest mama View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to give us such good starting points with your reference postings, OM4U.

    Just to add my opinion, while the statements you posted are what we in the public know with regard to the suitcase, etc., only the forensic testing done can be considered factual, because it can be scientifically validated. Also, photo evidence can be trusted as fact, I believe.

    The other statements as to where the suitcase came from, who used it, what it was used for, how it got into the basement, when it got into the basement, and where it was placed in the basement are all pieces of information straight from the mouths of the Ramseys, mostly JR. Patsy did also offer some comments about it being and OLD suitcase that she saw by the boiler room, while JR stated (more than once) it was a NEW suitcase. (Husband will ask, "Did you get a new sweater?" - he doesn't remember seeing it before recently, and wife will say, "What, this old thing?" - cause she's had it 6 months and worn it 3 times. Ends up OLD and NEW is a matter of opinion, so I have to discount their take on the age of the suitcase.)

    Same thing with JB's clothing. Patsy gave the statements. Doesn't say exactly when they shopped, and where the Gap outfit was laid for storage before it went onto JB. Or if it was in her closet, or a drawer, or still in the shopping bag. All we really know for sure (pictures have confirmed) she wore the top/outfit to the Whites, and she was found dead in it.

    I think it will be important for us to remember there is a difference between the evidence that is a fact, and the evidence that is based on Ramsey statements. Anything that cannot be forensically or photographically validated should be considered speculation, and therefore subject to judgement of whether it is the truth or a lie. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation is usually coupled with fact as the basis of us being able to come up with theories or scenarios which stimulate all of us to keep looking for more answers.

    The bumps in the road of this crime are numerous, thanks to the lies of the Ramseys, but we must keep going if we hope to get to our destination = Justice4JonBenet!
    MM, agree on the above...but you should agree on bellow....

    Fact also indicates a matter under discussion deemed to be true or correct, such as to emphasize a point or prove a disputed issue; (e.g., "... the fact of the matter is ...").[5][6]

    Alternatively, fact may also indicate an allegation or stipulation of something that may or may not be a "true fact",[7] (e.g., "the author's facts are not trustworthy"). This alternate usage, although contested by some, has a long history in standard English.[8]

    Fact may also indicate findings derived through a process of evaluation, including review of testimony, direct observation, or otherwise; as distinguishable from matters of inference or speculation.[9]
    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact"]Fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    I'll modify the word 'facts' to avoid the detour from the true purpose of this thread...

  12. #12
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    OpenMind4U,

    Well the White Gap Top had been purchased recently by Patsy, i.e. closer to one month, contrasted with JR stating he placed the suitcase in the basement approx. 3-months in the past?

    I think the suitcase was branded a Samsonite. If so these are quite spacious.

    When would JAR have last used the suitcase or its contents?



    .

  13. #13
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    Oh, OM4U, you and I are such sticklers for detail, aren't we! And hence, that is why we are in the company of other fine posters here, who are working so hard to find that one little overlooked detail that just might pull this whole thing together enough for us to go storming into Beckner's office!

    Let's stick together, as those who don't want to let a little girl's horrible death end up being a forgotten, unsolved cold case
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    OpenMind4U,

    Well the White Gap Top had been purchased recently by Patsy, i.e. closer to one month, contrasted with JR stating he placed the suitcase in the basement approx. 3-months in the past?

    I think the suitcase was branded a Samsonite. If so these are quite spacious.

    When would JAR have last used the suitcase or its contents?



    .
    In IT (Information Technology, programming) world, we used to build the logical IF-THEN-ELSE statements to solve the giving problems...something like this:

    IF duvet was placed in suitcase 3 month prior JBR murder AND
    duvet never has been taken out from suitcase since AND
    PR bought GAP shirt 1 month prior JBR murder AND
    nobody stored GAP shirt in suitcase prior JBR murder THEN
    'forensic connection' = FALSE!;
    ENDIF

    Based on above statement, you can see how many 'and' assumptions should be made to proof that 'forensic connection' is impossible between GAP shirt and duvet if we'll believe-in/relay-on Ramsey's statements....

    Now, we need to think how many options, assumptions, scenarios can justify 'forensic connection = TRUE'.....IMO, to connect duvet to JBR murder, at the minimum, we need to assume that GAP shirt was washed before the murder or was brand new!!!! AND duvet/sham was NOT inside of suitcase on December 25 at 9:00pm. Agree?....otherwise, the duvet and GAP shirt 'met' each other much prior December 25.

    jmo
    Last edited by OpenMind4U; 02-13-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  15. #15
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    Now, I would like to start discussion based on DeeDee reply from another thread. But before I say anything, I want to make sure for everyone to know that I'm very much respect DeeDee opinion, dedication and knowledge. DeeDee said:

    JB was NEVER placed inside the suitcase and I am not going to explain AGAIN why. If the fibers WERE sourced to the duvet, it points all the more solidly to the molestation involving one or both of JR's sons.
    BBM. DeeDee, I do understand 'why' you so strongly believes in it. But what IF (huge 'if' speculation on my part) JB was placed in suitcase PRIOR strangulation??? Means, prior to her death? Is it possible that whoever placed her there was assuming that she's dead already?...just speculation...and hence, the ugly round mark on her cheek is the result of contact from suitcase inside snap-on button?....Isn't true that this round abrasion on her cheek must be happened before she dies?....is it possible???

    jmo

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