The Suitcase - Duvet, Sham & Dr. Suess

midwest mama

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At the request of OM4U, this thread is for discussion about the relevance of the suitcase found in the train room, which contained a duvet and sham identified as belonging to JAR, along with a Dr. Seuss book.

The question is: how much of the crime itself can be attached to the suitcase and it's contents? Could any or all of it have been used at various steps throughout the crime, or was it brought in as staging after JB's death?
 
Well, I'll go first. Since it was reported that JR said he read JB a bedtime story, I see this as a potential association with this book... especially, since he later changed the story, which IMO, could be seen as him distancing himself from the book. moo
 
you'd think that when molestation happens the perpetrator wouldn't use his room or the childs room when doing it....maybe it all happened in JAR's room?
maybe these are some of the items they wanted to get rid of ?(along with the body)
maybe he thought the suitcase would fit through the broken window?


I read a RUMOR somewhere that JR gave FW a box with items through the broken window that morning....
 
It has always felt like staging to me.
I consider the suitcase itself to be staging. And staging is meant to be noticed by authories, so I suspect that the contents were either unknown to the stager or also meant to be found by authorities. A duvet from JAR might be a sensible choice because it may contain trace evidence of someone from outside the house.
And the book I feel has no relation to the actual crime. I suspect it was placed there to suggest it was used as a lure or something to that effect.
 
DeeDee, MM and everyone,

First of all, thank you MM for opening separate thread!!!
Secondly, let's make sure everyone familiar with the FACTS and available Informations so we can have productive discussions.

FACTS, INFORMATION, INTERVIEWS

1. JB shirt and items in suitcase (duvet/sham) have forensic connection

Steve Thomas Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia)
Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Action File No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
(Fiber Discussion)

8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces
10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and
11 CBI, were trying to source.
12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not
13 been able to do so, true?
14 A. That's my understanding.
15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
16 with a conclusion that there was a
17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
19 JonBenet's body
or were consistent with, is
20 that the right term?
21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever
23 offer a report or an explanation concerning
24 that.
25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the

247
1 CBI, didn't they?

2 A. On what point?
3 Q. On the question of whether there
4 were fibers inside materials found in the
5 suitcase found under the window in the
6 basement consistent with fibers found on
7 JonBenet?
8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
9 position or stating this consistency of these
10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
11 between the FBI and that finding.

...from another source....

The suitcase contained a pillow sham, duvet and Dr. Seuss book. These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase. (SMF P 146; PSMF P 146.) A lab report indicated that fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt that JonBenet was wearing when she was found in the wine cellar. (SMF P 147; PSMF P 147.)" (Carnes 2003:Note 32).

2. When suitcase was placed in basement?

John Ramsey has testified that he, himself, took suitcase into the basement and store it in room close to the laundry. He has no knowledge what was inside of suitcase and he has no idea what 'duvet' means.

JR interview June, 1998 (Police Files)

JR...12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have
13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all
15 the way back there and put it against the window.
16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a
17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.
18 It was right up against the wall?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that
21 down. When did you?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months
23 before, two months before
. It was one of these big
24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids
25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older
0155
1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't
2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to
3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.
4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the
5 laundry room.
I remember taking it downstairs to
6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in
7 this room here.
........
1 LOU SMIT: And I would like to ask
2 you just some questions. Do you know what a
3 sham is or a duvet?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: (Shaking head).
5 LOU SMIT: Two type of things?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Sham is a blanket,
7 right? But duvet, I don't know.

8 LOU SMIT: Do you recall any shams
9 or duvets being in your house? I know if you
10 don't know what a duvet is, you probably don't
11 know to say it was in there but --
12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.
13 A sham, I mean I don't know if I
14 know what a sham was, a small blanket. That's
15 purely a guess, but we had lots of little
16 blankets and stuff like that around.

17 LOU SMIT: How about a Dr. Suess
18 book, do you remember anything in a Dr. Suess
19 book, either associated with John Andrew or
20 associated with JonBenet or anything that --
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had lots of
22 kids' books. We had bookshelves full of them.
23 I know that they had -- I know I read to 'em,
24 Dr. Suess books, so I am sure they were there.
25 LOU SMIT: Do you know why there
0714
1 would be a sham and duvet and a Dr. Suess book
2 in that suitcase?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell me
4 what a duvet is?
5 LOU SMIT: A duvet is also
6 something that fits on like on a couch or almost
7 a little blanket that fits on a couch.
8 JOHN RAMSEY: A square or does it
9 fit?
10 LOU SMIT: Yes. I have never seen
11 this, I don't have a photograph of it, but can
12 you think of why there would be a sham or duvet
13 in John Andrew's suitcase along with a Dr. Suess
14 book?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. My recollection
16 of where that suitcase came from was he brought
17 some clothes from Atlanta, where he went to
18 school, and when the kid left to go to school be
19 and every port in a storm in his apartment, and
20 it ended up and it was in his room for a while,
21 then it was in the laundry room outside of his
22 room for a while, and then I carried it
23 downstairs.
I presumed it was empty.

24 LOU SMIT: I appreciate if you
25 wouldn't just talk to John Andrew about that
0715
1 right now. I would like to ask him that.
2 JOHN RAMSEY: You want me to talk
3 to him right now
4 LOU SMIT: We can talk to him
5 either today or tomorrow, that's fine.

3. When JB wore the Gap shirt?

Patsy Ramsey Interview, April 1997, Police Files.

TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she wearing actually to the White’s house like?
PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pant, cause I was wearing black velvet paths and it was Christmas and all that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
TT: Kind of a crew neck?
PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
TT: Okay.
PR: So I just left that on her.

...from another PR interview, PR

20 TRIP DEMUTH: That is photo 386, it is the
21 article of clothing on the right of the picture. What
22 belt?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Little Gap belt.

24 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: She would have worn to the
0464
1 White's. I can't tell where the (inaudible). The ones
2 that (inaudible). Zip up. These kind of look like a
3 plastic waist. I can't tell.

Now, when you know the FACTS and available Informations, let's talk how the context of the suitcase could relates to JBR murder.
 
DeeDee, MM and everyone,

First of all, thank you MM for opening separate thread!!!
Secondly, let's make sure everyone familiar with the FACTS so we can have productive discussions.

FACTS

1. JB shirt and items in suitcase (duvet/sham) have forensic connection



...from another source....



2. When suitcase was placed in basement?

John Ramsey has testified that he, himself, took suitcase into the basement and store it in room close to the laundry. He has no knowledge what was inside of suitcase and he has no idea what 'duvet' means.

JR interview June, 1998 (Police Files)



3. When JB wore the Gap shirt?

Patsy Ramsey Interview, April 1997, Police Files.



...from another PR interview, PR



Now, when you know the FACTS, let's talk how the context of the suitcase could relates to JBR murder.

Have to disagree with you on #2. Just because John said he took the suitcase to the basement months before does not make it a fact.
 
Thanks for taking the time to give us such good starting points with your reference postings, OM4U.

Just to add my opinion, while the statements you posted are what we in the public know with regard to the suitcase, etc., only the forensic testing done can be considered factual, because it can be scientifically validated. Also, photo evidence can be trusted as fact, I believe.

The other statements as to where the suitcase came from, who used it, what it was used for, how it got into the basement, when it got into the basement, and where it was placed in the basement are all pieces of information straight from the mouths of the Ramseys, mostly JR. Patsy did also offer some comments about it being and OLD suitcase that she saw by the boiler room, while JR stated (more than once) it was a NEW suitcase. (Husband will ask, "Did you get a new sweater?" - he doesn't remember seeing it before recently, and wife will say, "What, this old thing?" - cause she's had it 6 months and worn it 3 times. Ends up OLD and NEW is a matter of opinion, so I have to discount their take on the age of the suitcase.)

Same thing with JB's clothing. Patsy gave the statements. Doesn't say exactly when they shopped, and where the Gap outfit was laid for storage before it went onto JB. Or if it was in her closet, or a drawer, or still in the shopping bag. All we really know for sure (pictures have confirmed) she wore the top/outfit to the Whites, and she was found dead in it.

I think it will be important for us to remember there is a difference between the evidence that is a fact, and the evidence that is based on Ramsey statements. Anything that cannot be forensically or photographically validated should be considered speculation, and therefore subject to judgement of whether it is the truth or a lie. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation is usually coupled with fact as the basis of us being able to come up with theories or scenarios which stimulate all of us to keep looking for more answers.

The bumps in the road of this crime are numerous, thanks to the lies of the Ramseys, but we must keep going if we hope to get to our destination = Justice4JonBenet!
 
Have to disagree with you on #2. Just because John said he took the suitcase to the basement months before does not make it a fact.

LOL....of course not!!!! A lot of LIES were getting from Ramseys mouth....but as of today, our discussions should be based on what we know, what was documented, what was available for us....not rumors like JR was giving FW some staff through the basement window.....this the point I'm trying to make! We can speculate but based on FACTS (see above post).

jmo
 
LOL....of course not!!!! A lot of LIES were getting from Ramseys mouth....but as of today, our discussions should be based on what we know, what was documented, what was available for us....not rumors like JR was giving FW some staff through the basement window.....this the point I'm trying to make! We can speculate but based on FACTS (see above post).

jmo

I'm confused. In your above post you stated:

FACTS

1. JB shirt and items in suitcase (duvet/sham) have forensic connection

2. When suitcase was placed in basement?

3. When JB wore the Gap shirt?

That looks like to me you belive all three of these things are facts. :waitasec: Sorry if I misunderstood.
 
Pr said the gap outfit JB wore to the Whites had a belt. Kind of off course pertaining to this thread, but I wonder if she could have first been strangled with the belt, and if it was taken as evidence ........or did it just disappear?
 
Thanks for taking the time to give us such good starting points with your reference postings, OM4U.

Just to add my opinion, while the statements you posted are what we in the public know with regard to the suitcase, etc., only the forensic testing done can be considered factual, because it can be scientifically validated. Also, photo evidence can be trusted as fact, I believe.

The other statements as to where the suitcase came from, who used it, what it was used for, how it got into the basement, when it got into the basement, and where it was placed in the basement are all pieces of information straight from the mouths of the Ramseys, mostly JR. Patsy did also offer some comments about it being and OLD suitcase that she saw by the boiler room, while JR stated (more than once) it was a NEW suitcase. (Husband will ask, "Did you get a new sweater?" - he doesn't remember seeing it before recently, and wife will say, "What, this old thing?" - cause she's had it 6 months and worn it 3 times. Ends up OLD and NEW is a matter of opinion, so I have to discount their take on the age of the suitcase.)

Same thing with JB's clothing. Patsy gave the statements. Doesn't say exactly when they shopped, and where the Gap outfit was laid for storage before it went onto JB. Or if it was in her closet, or a drawer, or still in the shopping bag. All we really know for sure (pictures have confirmed) she wore the top/outfit to the Whites, and she was found dead in it.

I think it will be important for us to remember there is a difference between the evidence that is a fact, and the evidence that is based on Ramsey statements. Anything that cannot be forensically or photographically validated should be considered speculation, and therefore subject to judgement of whether it is the truth or a lie. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but speculation is usually coupled with fact as the basis of us being able to come up with theories or scenarios which stimulate all of us to keep looking for more answers.

The bumps in the road of this crime are numerous, thanks to the lies of the Ramseys, but we must keep going if we hope to get to our destination = Justice4JonBenet!

MM, agree on the above...but you should agree on bellow:)....

Fact also indicates a matter under discussion deemed to be true or correct, such as to emphasize a point or prove a disputed issue; (e.g., "... the fact of the matter is ...").[5][6]

Alternatively, fact may also indicate an allegation or stipulation of something that may or may not be a "true fact",[7] (e.g., "the author's facts are not trustworthy"). This alternate usage, although contested by some, has a long history in standard English.[8]

Fact may also indicate findings derived through a process of evaluation, including review of testimony, direct observation, or otherwise; as distinguishable from matters of inference or speculation.[9]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact"]Fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I'll modify the word 'facts' to avoid the detour from the true purpose of this thread:)...
 
OpenMind4U,

Well the White Gap Top had been purchased recently by Patsy, i.e. closer to one month, contrasted with JR stating he placed the suitcase in the basement approx. 3-months in the past?

I think the suitcase was branded a Samsonite. If so these are quite spacious.

When would JAR have last used the suitcase or its contents?



.
 
Oh, OM4U, you and I are such sticklers for detail, aren't we! And hence, that is why we are in the company of other fine posters here, who are working so hard to find that one little overlooked detail that just might pull this whole thing together enough for us to go storming into Beckner's office!:bud:

Let's stick together, :grouphug: as those who don't want to let a little girl's horrible death end up being a forgotten, unsolved cold case
 
OpenMind4U,

Well the White Gap Top had been purchased recently by Patsy, i.e. closer to one month, contrasted with JR stating he placed the suitcase in the basement approx. 3-months in the past?

I think the suitcase was branded a Samsonite. If so these are quite spacious.

When would JAR have last used the suitcase or its contents?



.

In IT (Information Technology, programming) world, we used to build the logical IF-THEN-ELSE statements to solve the giving problems...something like this:

IF duvet was placed in suitcase 3 month prior JBR murder AND
duvet never has been taken out from suitcase since AND
PR bought GAP shirt 1 month prior JBR murder AND
nobody stored GAP shirt in suitcase prior JBR murder THEN
'forensic connection' = FALSE!;
ENDIF

Based on above statement, you can see how many 'and' assumptions should be made to proof that 'forensic connection' is impossible between GAP shirt and duvet if we'll believe-in/relay-on Ramsey's statements....:)

Now, we need to think how many options, assumptions, scenarios can justify 'forensic connection = TRUE'.....IMO, to connect duvet to JBR murder, at the minimum, we need to assume that GAP shirt was washed before the murder or was brand new!!!! AND duvet/sham was NOT inside of suitcase on December 25 at 9:00pm. Agree?....otherwise, the duvet and GAP shirt 'met' each other much prior December 25.

jmo
 
Now, I would like to start discussion based on DeeDee reply from another thread. But before I say anything, I want to make sure for everyone to know that I'm very much respect DeeDee opinion, dedication and knowledge. DeeDee said:

JB was NEVER placed inside the suitcase and I am not going to explain AGAIN why. If the fibers WERE sourced to the duvet, it points all the more solidly to the molestation involving one or both of JR's sons.

BBM. DeeDee, I do understand 'why' you so strongly believes in it. But what IF (huge 'if' speculation on my part) JB was placed in suitcase PRIOR strangulation??? Means, prior to her death? Is it possible that whoever placed her there was assuming that she's dead already?...just speculation...and hence, the ugly round mark on her cheek is the result of contact from suitcase inside snap-on button?....Isn't true that this round abrasion on her cheek must be happened before she dies?....is it possible???

jmo
 
Have to disagree with you on #2. Just because John said he took the suitcase to the basement months before does not make it a fact.
No JR saying something doesn't make it fact, but through his own words, he DID put that suitcase in his own hands. Him claiming he didn't know what was in it isn't fact either, but that doesn't make what he said the truth. What this looks like to me, is JR distancing... giving an explanation of how that suitcase couldn't have played a role in this crime because it had been in the cellar for months. But if the information about the duvet fibers is reliable, and if JB's blouse was newer than a couple of months, then his version of the story doesn't quite jibe with the evidence. What I see as important here though, is JR put the suitcase in his hands.
 
No JR saying something doesn't make it fact, but through his own words, he DID put that suitcase in his own hands. Him claiming he didn't know what was in it isn't fact either, but that doesn't make what he said the truth. What this looks like to me, is JR distancing... giving an explanation of how that suitcase couldn't have played a role in this crime because it had been in the cellar for months. But if the information about the duvet fibers is reliable, and if JB's blouse was newer than a couple of months, then his version of the story doesn't quite jibe with the evidence. What I see as important here though, is JR put the suitcase in his hands.

Probably because his fingerpints are all over it, isn't? Otherwise, why wouldn't he distancing from it?....but IMO the problem is not the suitcase! The problem is in the context of it!

The main thing which bothers me the most is why duvet was hidden inside? If forensic tests are true - and I have no reason to doubt this yet! - then why this particular piece of evidence needs to be hidden??

Let's assume that JR was telling the truth, he took suitcase to basement (regardless when, 3 months ago or on 25th). The suitcase by itself supposedly plays role for IDI as RST suggested. If duvet has contact with JB during the murder then placing it inside of suitcase (hiding it!) contradicts IDI actions! The same way as the cleaning and redressing actions contradicts 'intruder' MOA.

I don't remember who said this (Dr. Henry Lee?): the crime scene has 'staging inside of staging'. Kind of, one person was doing one kind of staging and another one 'overlaying' it with another one...do you know what I mean?

This suitcase with duvet reminds me of 'staging inside of staging'. John is placing suitcase to point to 'intruder' and PR is hiding duvet inside because it relates to 'something which could not be named -SEX!'....

jmo
 
I'm fairly new to the info revolving around the suitcase and its contents, but...

I don't care when/why JR says he placed it there. The Ramseys can't even 'remember' whether JB was awake and read to the night she died, or asleep and carried to bed. :banghead:

What I do know is the day/night before my family is about to leave on a trip, open suitcases in every bedroom abound. Sometimes extras/different options line the hall in case we've over/underestimated our needs.

Patsy left the kitchen and much of the house a sty. I highly doubt the packing had been done to completion, perhaps not even started. Didn't she admit she stayed up that night 'to get things ready' for the trip? My husband does this. He puts off packing until just hours before we're going to leave, even a big trip.

I don't know that JB would have been carried down in a suitcase, but I can certainly see him/her or them 'packing up' things that might be evidence, (look how handy it is we have open suitcases lying around!) hoping that it could come with them on their private plane for private dumping. Sure doesn't look suspicious that they're leaving the house to go on a trip with SUITCASES.

Then it became clear they wouldn't be able to get the body OR the suitcase out of the house since the one detective was apparently never leaving....

Just throwing spaghetti...:fence:
 
In IT (Information Technology, programming) world, we used to build the logical IF-THEN-ELSE statements to solve the giving problems...something like this:

IF duvet was placed in suitcase 3 month prior JBR murder AND
duvet never has been taken out from suitcase since AND
PR bought GAP shirt 1 month prior JBR murder AND
nobody stored GAP shirt in suitcase prior JBR murder THEN
'forensic connection' = FALSE!;
ENDIF

Based on above statement, you can see how many 'and' assumptions should be made to proof that 'forensic connection' is impossible between GAP shirt and duvet if we'll believe-in/relay-on Ramsey's statements....:)

Now, we need to think how many options, assumptions, scenarios can justify 'forensic connection = TRUE'.....IMO, to connect duvet to JBR murder, at the minimum, we need to assume that GAP shirt was washed before the murder or was brand new!!!! AND duvet/sham was NOT inside of suitcase on December 25 at 9:00pm. Agree?....otherwise, the duvet and GAP shirt 'met' each other much prior December 25.

jmo

OpenMind4U,
You do not require all the and statements, since one false element makes the remainder redundant. This heuristic is employed in conditional statements usually with the critical condition being evaluated first.

So all you need is the fibers on the top and proof that the top is new or clean.

Assuming there are fibers from the sham and duvet on the top, then because I'm assuming JonBenet wore clean clothes to the White's party, then they should not be there?

Also I think Patsy stated she had purchased the White Gap Top recently when out shopping with JonBenet, at some nearby store?

Thats two reasons for assuming the top was clean on JonBenet the night of the 25th?

here are a few quotes relating to that purchase:

Bonita Papers: Excerpt
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-fleet-priscilla-white.htm
That evening would bring another holiday gathering dinner with Fleet and Priscilla White and their family and guests. While getting ready to attend the dinner party, Patsy tried to persuade JonBenet to wear a red sweater and black velvet pants that would match the outfit that Patsy was wearing. Like most independently thinking six-year-olds, JonBenet had other ideas about her evening attire. She insisted on wearing her black velvet jeans and matching black velvet best with a whit crew-neck sweater with a sequin star on the front – an outfit she had helped pick out at a local Gap store. To complete her outfit, she wore a small gold ring on the middle finger of her right hand, a gift from her maternal grandmother, Nedra Paugh, a bracelet on her right wrist – a Christmas gift from her mother, and a gold cross necklace given to her by her aunt Pam.

Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-christmasday.htm
Tom Trujillo: "What color of top did she wear to bed that night. What color top was she wearing actually to the Whites' house like?

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that 'cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pants, 'cause I was wearing black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that. And she didn't want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap out fit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this.."

Tom Trujillo: "Kind of a crew neck?"

Patsy Ramsey: "...Crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "So I just left that on her."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And I'm sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest."

So I think the burden of proof rests with the fiber evidence if its credible then we have a forensic link.




.
 
Yes, JR through his own words, put the suitcase in his hands. Just like through his own words, he put a child's book in his hands, (That Night!). Just like through his own words, he put himself in the basement window and then down in the basement in his underwear. But, according to him, even if these things and places are related to the crime, HE's 's not, because he can explain it all away. IDK about all of this, because didn't Kolar say he didn't believe JR was involved? Did he spell out what led him to this conclusion, or was it simply his opinion? What about the suitcase and its contents? Did he see any connection to the crime? because really, it shouldn't be disregarded just because it doesn't fit into a certain theory. If the suitcase was involved, then so be it. Actually, my initial impression of the suitcase was that somebody might have been trying to set up JAR, but that opinion was based on just the fact that most of the stuff supposedly belonged to him. If it was a set-up, it was a pitiful attempt. moo
 

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