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  1. #1
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    circumstances compatible with intrusion

    Many folks had keys to the house; LHP, Savage, Wilcox to mention a few, and a key was secreted under a rock near the front door.

    There was a broken window in the basement through which the killer could have entered and/or exited: this is undisputed.

    There was a suitcase positioned against the wall under that window, which had a small shard of glass on it which might have been deposited by someone's shoe as he stepped on the suitcase: this is disputed.

    The Butler Pantry door was ajar: this is disputed.

    There was a snow-free path to the alley via the basement window and the patio door when the Ramseys entered the house for the last time that evening: this has been argued about incessantly.

    There was some frost and a light dusting of snow come morning, and officers reported observing no footprints; however, the snow had fallen early in the morning, and the frost had formed during the night. Frost doesn't form instantly; it requires proper temperature and humidity and TIME: this has been disputed.

    JonBenet's dog, Jacques, was at the Barnhills' that night, having been taken there prior to the Ramseys' departure for the Christmas dinner at the Whites':
    this is undisputed.

    The alarm system was not on that night: this is undisputed.

    The Ramsey parents' bedroom was up one story and at the opposite end of the house from JonBenet's bedroom: this is undisputed.

    Burke's bedroom was at the opposite end of the 2nd story from JonBenet's bedroom: this is undisputed.

    JonBenet's bedroom was near the spiral stairs: this is undisputed.

    The ransom note was placed on a step near the bottom of the spiral stairs: this is what the Ramseys report, so, naturally it is disputed.

    Steps near the bottom of the stairs were frequently used by the Ramseys and the housekeeper as a place to put things that needed the housekeeper's attention, and a place to leave notes: this is undisputed.

    The spiral stairs, also called the back stairs, were Patsy's favorite means of ascent and descent between the 1st and 2nd floors. Other family members used the stairs too, though perhaps not quite as frequently: this is undisputed.

    Those stairs landed on the 1st floor near the head of the Butler Pantry stairs (a short flight) and near the entry to a hallway which led shortly to the kitchen area and beyond: this is undisputed.

    The Ramseys were absent from the house that evening for several hours: this is undisputed.

    There was a ransom note shown to the officers and taken into custody by them: this is undisputed.

    A neighbor reported hearing a child screaming around midnight-two: this is undisputed.

    Officers determined that it was possible for the neighbor to hear such a noise, while the Ramsey parents and Burke might not: this is undisputed.

    A bat was found in the Ramsey yard with fibers on it consistent with fibers from the carpet in the basement: this is undisputed.

    The duct tape on JB's mouth was never sourced to anyone, let alone the Ramseys: this is undisputed.

    The ligature cords, similarly, were never sourced to the house: this is undisputed.

    A flashlight of unknown ownership was found sitting on a kitchen counter: the ownership of the flashlight is disputed. No prints were found on it nor on the voltaic cells inside it: this is undisputed.

    A seasoned homicide investigator with a marvelous record, believes a stun gun was used on JonBenet: this is DEFINITELY disputed.

    No stun gun was found in the house: this is undisputed.

    No record of purchase by the Ramseys for a stun gun was ever discovered: this is undisputed.

    No record of purchase by the Ramseys for the tape and cord were ever discovered: this is undisputed.

    Animal hairs and cloth fibers were found on and around the body; the animal hairs have not been sourced to the Ramseys: this is undisputed. Some of the cloth fibers have not been sourced to the Ramseys: this is undisputed. Some of the cloth fibers MAY have been sourced to John: this is disputed.

    Foreign DNA was found in the panties and under the fingernails of JB: this is undisputed.

    This DNA was not sourced to the Ramseys: this is undisputed.

    Boot/shoe prints were discovered on the floor of the wine cellar that haven't been sourced to the Ramseys: this is undisputed.

    A pubic hair was found on the blanket which covered JB's body: there has been some argument over whether this is a pubic hair or hair from some other part of the body: this hair was not definitely sourced to the Ramseys.

    JonBenet was found wearing panties that were way too big for her: this is undisputed.

    JonBenet had been strangled with what has been popularly referred to as a garotte: this is undisputed.

    JonBenet had been struck on the head with killing force: this is undisputed.

    Red fibers similar to those of the shirt that Patsy gave to LE and thought she'd been wearing that night were found on the duct tape: this is undisputed.

    That shirt had fibers of other colors manufactured into it also: no fibers similar to those were found on the duct tape: this is undisputed.

    Similar red fibers were also found entwined in the cord wrapped around the garotte handle: this is undisputed.

    No fibers of any other color were found there: this is undisputed.

    A hair which may have come from a beaver was also found on the duct tape: this is undisputed.

    The ransom note was written on paper from a pad sourced to the house and with a pen sourced to the house: this is largely undisputed.

    These materials were readily accessible to anyone in the house who wished to use them: this is undisputed.

    The paintbrush used as an element of the garotte, was readily accessible to anyone wishing to use it: this is undisputed.

    Patsy's 911 call sounded genuine: this has been disputed.

    There was no guest in the house who might have detected the presence of the killer: this is according to the Ramseys and is therefore disputed.

    JonBenet was high profile owing to her participation in pageants and parades: this is undisputed.

    That John Ramsey was the president of a large company and was a wealthy person was known to many: this is undisputed.

    That he had made several enemies on his way up the ladder of success is not disputed.

    That LHP expressed concern that JonBenet might be kidnapped is not disputed.

    That Barbara Kostanick, a reliable person, reported that JonBenet confided that Santa was going to pay her a secret visit after Christmas is not disputed.

    That many people, including strangers and contractors, etc., had been in the house from time to time prior to the murder is not disputed.

    That there was no history of sexual abuse of the children, or corporal punishment meted out to the children, or spouse abuse is not disputed.

    That there was no history of mental illness on the parents' part is not disputed.

    That the Ramseys were loving and caring parents and good providers is not disputed.

    That JonBenet was killed during the night when a killer would have had the advantage of the cover of darkness while approaching and leaving the house is undisputed.

    This is the short list.....
    Last edited by RedChief; 03-04-2005 at 02:33 AM. Reason: typos

  2. #2
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    The Pugh's were clearly psychic were they not!
    The mrs. suggests the child "could be kidnapped" and the mr. asks, "did they strangle her".
    The pads and pens in the Pugh's home , shown to the police, were identical to the ones found in the Ramsey home, suggesting they were a bit "lightfingered" ,as well.
    Clearly Linda helped herself to this stationery, however, did she take new pads and pens, or did she just help herself to items she believed were left over and otherwise would be tossed in the trash? Alone in the house as a handyman,Nov.1996, did Merv find any items he liked? ..tools..flashlights..wrenches..
    Linda helped Patsy on the 23rd., staying later than her normal hours, so late as to bring about a last minute invitation for Arianna. Patsy, the wonderful hostess that she was, quickly stepped up, not only lending Arianna some clothing but jotting down a quick little note for Santa to read about the child. Santa had a little note to read, provided by Patsy, to make each child's santa experience a personal one. What did Patsy have to gift to Arianna? Did they not all get a little gift? What would she have on hand for a 12 yr old girl?

    What happened to the pad that was used for this note writing? Did Santa read each note from separated pieces of paper, or did he read from a pad? Would these notes account for the missing pages?

    Edit to add..oops..sorry..off thread track..please continue..

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    The Pugh's were clearly psychic were they not!
    The mrs. suggests the child "could be kidnapped" and the mr. asks, "did they strangle her".
    The pads and pens in the Pugh's home , shown to the police, were identical to the ones found in the Ramsey home, suggesting they were a bit "lightfingered" ,as well.
    Clearly Linda helped herself to this stationery, however, did she take new pads and pens, or did she just help herself to items she believed were left over and otherwise would be tossed in the trash? Alone in the house as a handyman,Nov.1996, did Merv find any items he liked? ..tools..flashlights..wrenches..
    Linda helped Patsy on the 23rd., staying later than her normal hours, so late as to bring about a last minute invitation for Arianna. Patsy, the wonderful hostess that she was, quickly stepped up, not only lending Arianna some clothing but jotting down a quick little note for Santa to read about the child. Santa had a little note to read, provided by Patsy, to make each child's santa experience a personal one. What did Patsy have to gift to Arianna? Did they not all get a little gift? What would she have on hand for a 12 yr old girl?

    What happened to the pad that was used for this note writing? Did Santa read each note from separated pieces of paper, or did he read from a pad? Would these notes account for the missing pages?

    Edit to add..oops..sorry..off thread track..please continue..
    It could be argued that Linda Hoffman Pugh commenting on the possibility that JohnBenet might be kidnapped "sowed an idea" into the heads of those who heard the comment. Who did she say it to?
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




    Together we can make a difference





    Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Member of Websleuths since April 2000

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    It could be argued that Linda Hoffman Pugh commenting on the possibility that JohnBenet might be kidnapped "sowed an idea" into the heads of those who heard the comment. Who did she say it to?


    LHP didn't have a wide audience, so the only ones who likely heard the kidnap comment would be the immediate members of the Pugh family and the Ramsey family.

    That would leave Merv, Linda and Ariana; and John, Patsy and Burke.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    LHP didn't have a wide audience, so the only ones who likely heard the kidnap comment would be the immediate members of the Pugh family and the Ramsey family.

    That would leave Merv, Linda and Ariana; and John, Patsy and Burke.
    Linda had her grown kids who had spouses and who had helped at the Ramsey's house, by her own admission.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah
    Linda had her grown kids who had spouses and who had helped at the Ramsey's house, by her own admission.

    I agree the ripple effect can take over and envelop dozens of people, but I'm trying to keep the number of people down to the MOST LIKELY who would have heard the kidnap comment from LHP.

  7. #7
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    I haven't followed the BTK as well as I would have liked, however I understand they took dna from his daughter's medical test to determine if "he" shared enough markers to arrest. (not certain if this is true)
    Could this be the reasoning behind the BPD taking Arianna's dna two years after the murder? How would they "know" if Merv is her biological father?
    Just wondering.................

  8. #8
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    Feb 2005
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    like father like daughter

    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    I haven't followed the BTK as well as I would have liked, however I understand they took dna from his daughter's medical test to determine if "he" shared enough markers to arrest. (not certain if this is true)
    Could this be the reasoning behind the BPD taking Arianna's dna two years after the murder? How would they "know" if Merv is her biological father?
    Just wondering.................
    Hey, sissi,

    You might be on to something. But, didn't LE take forensic samples from Merv? Why would they adopt this roundabout way of comparing his DNA? They could compare it directly. Also, surely they would ensure that he were her biological father first.

  9. #9
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    Ah..maybe to eliminate a brother or two?

  10. #10
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    thicker than water

    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    Ah..maybe to eliminate a brother or two?

    Ah...why not get DNA from the brothers directly?


  11. #11
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    Why wait two years to check "FEMALE" dna?

  12. #12
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    female DNA inspector

    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    Why wait two years to check "FEMALE" dna?

    Uh....why check female DNA at all?

    Are we having fun? :-)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedChief
    Uh....why check female DNA at all?

    Are we having fun? :-)
    The Forensic Lab (Cellmark?) said that the foreign DNA didn't match a Ramsey IF it came form only one person. If it came from more than one person, then no-one was eliminated. This sounds to me as though there may have been some uncertainty in this matter. Perhaps that is why they continued to test female DNA.
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




    Together we can make a difference





    Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Member of Websleuths since April 2000

  14. #14
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    According to Beckner's depo, was it not said ,or insinuated, that DNAX was found neither on her body nor on her clothing. Does X ..make ya think female?

  15. #15
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    symbols

    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    According to Beckner's depo, was it not said ,or insinuated, that DNAX was found neither on her body nor on her clothing. Does X ..make ya think female?
    sissi,

    Yes, X makes me think female. An arrow makes me think male. Just kidding.

    I forgot, is XX female and XY male or the other way 'round, or neither?

    I was thinking the X stood for unknown.

    There could have been a female participant in the crime--an outsider, or an insider; so, all DNA must be checked, right? Actually, the crime could have been committed by a lone female. However, how do we account for the male DNA in the underpants and under the nails?

    Did Ariana own Hi-Tec boots?

    This male DNA in the underpants that doesn't belong to John or Burke; boy, that's a headscratcher for the BDI's and the JDI's. It suggests (demands?) a fifth party in the house that night--the killer or his/her accomplice; the one who did the wiping. Did any of Burke's friends own clothing that might match the fibers? I don't suppose they would have brought towels with them, anticipating that they'd be needed for cleaning her up.

    We can allow that the duct tape (John says it wasn't duct tape) wasn't torn from a roll that the killer brought with him, nor from a roll that was kept in the house. That could account for the "missing" roll. We can allow that the cord wasn't cut from a larger bundle or roll that the killer brought with him, or that had been kept in the house. That could account for the "missing" cord. How do we account for the "missing" stun gun? Did any of Burke's friends' parents own stun guns, or did the kids have access to a stun gun? Were any stun guns reported stolen around about that time? We can allow that the mystery fibers came from articles of clothing worn by the perps. That could account for the "missing" fabric.

    Regarding the material found on the bed that matched material from the sack in JAR's room that contained the rope: is it possible that the killer/stager/accomplice initially intended to use that rope in staging and brought the sack into the bedroom and set it on the bed for that purpose, but soon changed his/her/their mind/s and opted for the synthetic nylon cord instead, replacing the sack in it's (original?) location or hiding it in the drawer in JAR's room? The rope in the sack: hidden rope in hidden sack?

    Too much cord to have come from a ski jacket or GERRY?

    'round and 'round we go....
    Last edited by RedChief; 03-08-2005 at 12:41 PM. Reason: typo

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