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  1. #1
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    why it wasn't a botched kidnapping attempt

    The sexual injury is proof of that.

    The location of the body is proof of that.

    The goofy ransom note is proof of that.

    The overkill is proof of that.

    The blanket-wrapped body is proof of that.

    The Barbie gown is proof of that.
    Last edited by RedChief; 03-04-2005 at 12:51 PM. Reason: typo

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedChief
    The sexual injury is proof of that.

    The location of the body is proof of that.

    The goofy ransom note is proof of that.

    The overkill is proof of that.

    The blanket-wrapped body is proof of that.

    The Barbie gown is proof of that.
    1. Experts have disagreed on whether there was sexual injury. JonBenet's pediatrician treated her numerous times for vaginitis which was not from sexual injury, at all, he said. A lot of little girls get problems with their privates at that age. If a little girl isn't as hygenic as she should be, it's easy to get problems like that.

    2. The location of the body would suggest to me even more that it could be a botched kidnap attempt; the kidnapper might not have been able to get her out of the basement window as planned. Or perhaps his rage or whatever built to the boiling point, and had to do it in the wine cellar. He brought his own tape and rope.

    3. The ransom note is not so "goofy." The killer was obviously a movie buff, as it quoted portions from the film, "Ransom" (which was playing in a Boulder theater the week before), Clint Eastwood movies, and one other. It might have been written well before the Ramseys came home, but surely not after the murder.

    4. The overkill is not proof of that. Once he got going, maybe he just really got into it.

    5. The blanket wrapped body was hastily done, not carefully staged. The blanket was only around her mid section; as if he was going to carry her out that way. (Parents would have probably covered up all her limbs to keep the body warm).

    6. Maybe JB had been playing with the Barbie gown in the wine celler at an earlier date and no one noticed it missing. Kids love hiding places; and little girls often bring favorite clothes there to dress up in them and pretend.

    IMO,
    Kaly

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalypso
    1. Experts have disagreed on whether there was sexual injury. JonBenet's pediatrician treated her numerous times for vaginitis which was not from sexual injury, at all, he said. A lot of little girls get problems with their privates at that age. If a little girl isn't as hygenic as she should be, it's easy to get problems like that.

    2. The location of the body would suggest to me even more that it could be a botched kidnap attempt; the kidnapper might not have been able to get her out of the basement window as planned. Or perhaps his rage or whatever built to the boiling point, and had to do it in the wine cellar. He brought his own tape and rope.

    3. The ransom note is not so "goofy." The killer was obviously a movie buff, as it quoted portions from the film, "Ransom" (which was playing in a Boulder theater the week before), Clint Eastwood movies, and one other. It might have been written well before the Ramseys came home, but surely not after the murder.

    4. The overkill is not proof of that. Once he got going, maybe he just really got into it.

    5. The blanket wrapped body was hastily done, not carefully staged. The blanket was only around her mid section; as if he was going to carry her out that way. (Parents would have probably covered up all her limbs to keep the body warm).

    6. Maybe JB had been playing with the Barbie gown in the wine celler at an earlier date and no one noticed it missing. Kids love hiding places; and little girls often bring favorite clothes there to dress up in them and pretend.

    IMO,
    Kaly
    Kalypso,

    As you can see this isn't a popular thread.

    One reason might be that the botched kidnapping theory has already been discussed ad nauseum and relegated to the trash can.

    Most folks have already made up their minds about who the killer is. I'm still undecided after all these years.

    I opened this thread to give folks another opportunity to state their reasons for rejecting this theory. I've listed some of the contradictory evidence that has been talked about in the past and is still somewhat problematic for me.

    One way to approach the subject might be to put yourself in the place of the kidnapper, and try to imagine how you would go about abducting this girl from her bedroom.

    It seems to me, if you were a stranger to her (possibly even wearing a disguise so as not to be pointed out in a line-up at some later date), and couldn't count on her cooperation (that's seems pretty optimistic), you'd want to keep her from crying out, or making any sound whatever that could alert the sleeping brother or parents.

    After ensuring her silence, you might want to bind her securely for various obvious reasons. You wouldn't want her to be able to escape by walking or running. You wouldn't want her to be able to do injury to you--scratching, kicking or gouging your eyes out or whatever. You wouldn't want her spitting in your face. You wouldn't want her to pick up an object and throw it at you or against the wall or strike you with it or knock over a lamp or whatever.

    If you were husky enough to pick her up and carry her, you'd probably prefer to do that. You'd have some stairs to negotiate though, so you'd factor that into your decision.

    If you, for whatever reason, decided to allow her to walk down the stairs and as far as the door, or even beyond, you wouldn't want to cover her eyes; that would prevent her from being able to navigate successfully. Frankly, I don't think I'd allow her to walk, because even with a leash on her or even if she were handcuffed to you, she might bolt and screw up your endeavor. At a very minimum, you'd probably have to drag her every inch of the way. Her eyes weren't covered when she was found. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that she hadn't been blindfolded at some point.

    All that said, I think I'd opt for knocking her out (stun her, or whack her on the head, or inject her with a powerful, fast acting sedative, or chloroform her, or whatever--knock her out quick). Simply gagging her might be a good alternative to the knock out; she'd still be conscious and able to see if she weren't blindfolded, but she'd be unable to cry out. If you knocked her out, though, you'd be killing two birds with one stone, so to speak--she couldn't cry out and she couldn't make any move of any kind; couldn't struggle.

    Once I had her immobilized and silenced, I'd throw her over my shoulder and head on out of there. I'd hope not to forget leaving the ransom note in a place where it would be sure to be found. I don't think I'd even leave a note. I might first put her in a duffle bag or some such thing to keep her out of sight while carrying her outdoors. A soft-sided suitcase would work good too, providing it were big enough. I dont' think just wrapping her in a blanket would be a great idea in this regard. That would arouse too much suspicion on the part of potential onlookers. Of course, it wouldn't matter what anyone saw or suspected as long as they didn't alert authorites right away. Getting her to a waiting vehicle or into the house next door without being spotted would be ideal--the so-called vanishing act.

    I wouldn't spend any more time in the house, post-nabbing, than necessary. Obviously it'd be necessary to do the silencing (at the very minimum) and preferrably the immobilization while still in her bedroom. There were fibers consistent with those of the cord, found there. I suppose cutting the cord there would be more likely to leave fibers, though some could be left just by pulling the cord out of your pocket. I don't know how many were found. Of course, there will be differing opinions on this.

    You would probably want to act quickly, but carefully and quietly, so you'd be balancing those three necessities.

    Once you got down the spiral stairs--the stairs of choice due to convenience and most direct route down to the first floor--you'd probably opt for the butler pantry exit, as it is closest, but what would you encounter outside in terms of what lay beyond and your chances of being spotted carrying your cargo? You might prefer to exit via the patio door, which many think would be best because you'd not leave any tracks in snow, and could make a bee line for the alley.

    So, to summarize, at a minimum, I'd think, you'd want to silence her, immobilize her, take possession of her (pick her up, package her, etc.) and skeedaddle.

    To address your comments: My understanding is that experts have disagreed as to whether she had been sexually abused in the past. Obviously they couldn't disagree as to whether she had been sexually injured in conjunction with her homicide.

    The location of the body, with respect to kidnapping, suggested to me that might have been a plan B (so to speak). I guessed that he hadn't intended to remove her through the basement window, but that she got loose from him and sought refuge in the basement. Maybe she recognized him at some point and he saw no alternative to killing her, but put the body in the wine cellar in a last ditch effort to conceal it and maybe still collect ransom. However, there are many problems for that theory, it seems to me: some of them I've listed above.

    I'm not sure the wrapping was hastily done. John seemed to think otherwise. I believe the blanket was wrapped around the torso. The feet, head and arms were sticking out and the blanket was underneath her also, including under her head. I don't know the size of the blanket. I assume it was large enough to cover the entire body, extended arms and all.

    And speaking of the extended arms: we don't have a good description of the position of the arms. The description was so poor that some thought her arms were raised up toward the ceiling of the room. My understanding is that they were thrown back beyond her head and shoulders in what I will call a diving position. I believe John Walsh hypothesized that she had been hanging by her arms and John may have found her and cut her down. This is how he explained the arms. This wouldn't fit with the rigor and the lividity unless she entered rigor quickly and he found the body quite early. Many feel that John found her body earlier that day, cut her down, wrapped her in the blanket and placed her body in the wine cellar. Although this theory has some believable qualities (dignity presentation), I think it falters in many other respects, the most notable of which is that John has never admitted to doing this and if he had admitted to doing this it would have (and still can) assis/ted in the investigation into the murder. Although, an explanation for his not admitting to doing this might be that he knows, or has a strong suspicion of, who killed the girl--a family member, and thinks that his posing of the body and placing it in the cellar, is actually preventing the authorities from figuring out who did it. He doesn't want them to know who did it. It's a theory that would have some appeal, as you can see.

    Yeah, the Barbie gown mystery persists.

    More about the position of the arms. When the body was found it was in advanced rigor and lividity had set in. The lividity was consistent with the position of her body (the posture) when it was found, except there was no mention of lividity in the arms, so can't be sure about those; however it seems reasonable to assume that the underside of the arms would show some lividity too. If her extended arms are to be explained by her having been suspended by them for some time, they must have entered rigor while she was thus hanging. I believe the onset of rigor occurs before lividity, but there seems to be some argument about this among the experts. Frankly, there has been too much arguing among the experts about many aspects of this case from the beginning. If, however, it is OK to have stiff arms prior to the lividity being set (becoming irreversible), then it's OK to have John cut her body down and place it in the cellar. If lividity had become set prior to cutting her down, then there would be clear evidence of the fact that the body had been moved from a vertical position, or sitting position with arms extended superiorly and anchored there by the cord. There is evidence with respect to knots that might be interpreted as evidence that the arms were thus suspended.

    Nice talkin' to ya.

    Keep on pondering.....
    Last edited by RedChief; 03-05-2005 at 02:48 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedChief
    The sexual injury is proof of that.

    The location of the body is proof of that.

    The goofy ransom note is proof of that.

    The overkill is proof of that.

    The blanket-wrapped body is proof of that.

    The Barbie gown is proof of that.
    Well ..no!
    Location, IMO, she could have been returned.
    Goofy ransom note, ha! The guy went on and on, he thinks he's smart.
    Overkill? This guy likes to control situations, likely a domestic violence type guy, (just my thought tonight), his own kids or younger siblings cower in his presence, this little girl was "bad, wouldn't listen to him". He lost it!
    Blanket? feet ,arms and hands out, IMO it just means he carried her back in the blanket and dumped her. No real attempt at covering or tucking her in.
    The barbie gown, he packed it along with the other items that seemed to share fibers with the contents of that suitcase. He had her pack for a trip...maybe?

    edit..sexual injury..sounds like part of the rage to me...an assault!

  5. #5
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    Just a little reminder that the killers among us aren't always what ya would expect!


    USA > Justice
    from the March 04, 2005 edition

    Challenges of capturing today's Dr. Jekylls

    The 'BTK killer' in Wichita, Kan., joins the ranks of serial killers who pose as 'normal' community members.

    By Mark Sappenfield | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

    By the time Jack Unterweger arrived at the Los Angeles Police Department, he was something of a celebrity. Back in Vienna, his prose had won him the adulation of the coffeehouse cognoscenti and a literary prize. In Los Angeles, he was the silver-haired intellectual come to research a story on prostitution in the United States.
    It seemed only natural to allow a journalist of his stature to ride along with officers, bringing him to the street corners at the heart of the Los Angeles sex trade. Of his experience, he wrote: "Real life in L.A. is dominated ... by the broken dreams of thousands who come daily to the city and an equal number who leave, sometimes dead."


    .






    Within months, however, the urbane Austrian author famous for his silk suits and his car with a "JACK 1" license plate was in prison, charged with killing 11 prostitutes - including three during his stay in California.

    Today, a decade later, as another man - a father of two and former Cub Scout leader in Wichita, Kan. - stands accused of 10 murders, Unterweger's tale serves a reminder that the public lives of serial killers are often intertwined with the ordinary. For generations, notorious murderers have been embraced as kindly grandfathers and celebrated as civic leaders - with one even meeting America's first lady

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    Just a little reminder that the killers among us aren't always what ya would expect!
    sissi,

    What is the liklihood that JonBenet's murder is in any way connected to her participation in pageants? She was going great guns in that arena wasn't she?

    She was Little Miss Colorado in 1995, and Colorado's Little Miss Christmas in 1996. Surely there were Colorado moms who were pretty jealous; and to think she was from the South--an invader--that'd make it even worse.

    Isn't it just a bit too ironic that Little Miss Christmas is killed on Christmas day? And by Santa, no less? Maybe.

    Isn't that possibility (or wasn't it in the beginning) a major part of what was so appealing about the case?

    Did you read the Singular book? Is it worth reading?

    Santa's dead....

  7. #7
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    The only commonality I see in that world ,of dance/pageants/parades, is the relationship to the dance studio had by both Jonbenet and the psychiatrist's daughter who was molested in her bedroom by an intruder.
    If this man and Jonbenet's killer are one in the same, then we can safely eliminate almost everyone in the Ramsey's close circle. The sneaking into a house while the mother and daughter were out, likely hiding out until the mom went to bed, all rings similarly. I would LOVE to know if there were any other things in common...use of the costume designer Pam,which could have included Christine as a babysitter, which could lead to a boyfriend of hers..this is not necessarily it, but perhaps a path that would follow like it? I would imagine the girls were all photographed, ours were once a year separately in costume and again with their company, maybe a photographer in common?

    I loved Singular's book! For awhile I thought, damn he's heading down the wrong path, however as soon as I became annoyed with him he switched gears a bit and became less convinced ( I believe) of his own original premise.

  8. #8
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    an author of singular attainments

    Quote Originally Posted by sissi
    ......I loved Singular's book! For awhile I thought, damn he's heading down the wrong path, however as soon as I became annoyed with him he switched gears a bit and became less convinced ( I believe) of his own original premise.

    sissi,

    Frankly the speculation that JonBenet was taken from the home, with or without the parents' approval, and returned dead, is cognitively dissonant.

    The same questions keep popping up again and again and I think you know what they are. There is yet a single hypothesis that makes perfect sense.

    I hate to keep bringing it up, but I can't figure who put those monster panties on JBR. I can't see Patsy doing it; I can't see John doing it; I can't see Burke doing it; I could believe that JonBenet did it while sitting down and pulling her velvet pants on before she stood up, but I can't understand the parents' not noticing the big underpants when they undressed her and got her ready for bed. Guess you'll have to explain it. Is it possible she was wearing the longjohns under the velvet pants? Not an implausible scenario, since it was wintertime and cold out. I know I wore longjohns under my bib overalls when I was a kid and outdoors in the wintertime. Also, that would have been a believable explanation for Patsy to adopt during her interviews. "Hey, guys, she was wearin' the johnnies underneath her black velvet pants, so I don't know what she had on underneath those. Sorry."

    And, oh, how do we know the Ramseys are telling the truth about anything that can't be independently verified? Further, how do we know they're not?

    To change the subject: What if the kidnapper fell while carrying JB down the spiral stairs or the butler pantry stairs and she landed on her head, maybe with him on top of her? What would he do in that case? Just pick her up and continue on out of the house, or what? The skull wound is too grievous for most of the accident scenarios proposed thus far. I don't think she was pushed and fell against a tub, for example. I don't think someone grabbed her by the hair and bashed her head against a vanity, for example. It's possible that someone grabbed her by the hair--some strong person--and slammed her head into the concrete floor. I would think there would be evidence of this. That would fit well with the temporal pole bruising.

    Does the RN appear to be written pre-homicide or post-homicide, in your estimation?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedChief
    To change the subject: What if the kidnapper fell while carrying JB down the spiral stairs or the butler pantry stairs and she landed on her head, maybe with him on top of her? What would he do in that case? Just pick her up and continue on out of the house, or what? The skull wound is too grievous for most of the accident scenarios proposed thus far. I don't think she was pushed and fell against a tub, for example. I don't think someone grabbed her by the hair and bashed her head against a vanity, for example. It's possible that someone grabbed her by the hair--some strong person--and slammed her head into the concrete floor. I would think there would be evidence of this. That would fit well with the temporal pole bruising.

    Does the RN appear to be written pre-homicide or post-homicide, in your estimation?
    I hadn't actually thought about that before - I just assumed that she was hit in the head with something - but how could that cause a wound that large? Now her hitting her head on the concrete - that could cause a wound like that.

    This case confuses me soooo much - some things scream HELLO THE RAMSEYS DID IT and others scream just the opposite. I know people obbsess over the fact that she was in pagents, but the media plays up that little bit, about how she was always "dolled up" so to speak. http://crimeshots.com/JBFamily.html this site has some family photographs, along with the pagent ones - despite the media's portrayal of her pagent life, there are plenty of other photographs here.

    I really can't give a ransom opinion, because honestly the last time I read anything on the Jonbenet Ramsey case was in 1998 when I was 12. (I developed an obsession with the case and tabloud coverage right after her murder at the age of 10, yes very unhealthy, but by the time I was 13 I had 3 years worth of tabloid stories hidden) At the time, I thought it was written by her mother, but it doesn't make sense to me now....its possible it could be written ahead of time though, maybe the intruder had a similar pad to the one in the Ramsey's home.
    "well, in my mind, my opinion is not so humble at all...it's just my opinion"

    Megan Kanka
    December 7, 1986 - July 31, 1994
    forever missed

    Someone, somewhere knows what happened to CRYSTAL TYMICH

  10. #10
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    phyllium,

    Thanks for your thoughts and for the URL. Lots of good photos at the site, including the one I was looking for.

    RedChief


  11. #11
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    business is slow; the faction is on holiday

    Take away the ransom note and what do you have?

    Let's pretend there was no note; most of us probably agree that leaving a note isn't a sure sign of superior intelligence; especially THAT note...which, though it's unconvincing, seems to have wreaked its havoc on the investigation.

    Let's pretend that the child was missing from her usual habitat at that hour of the morning. The parents will probably run around a bit, looking for her. If they don't find her, straightaway, they'll dial the gendarmes. They didn't think to look in the wine cellar; its door was latched from the outside. They checked under the beds and in the walk-in refrigerator, and in the garage to see if she'd decided to take an early-morning bike ride. No sign of her. Help!

    Most of the gendarmerie are on Christmas holiday, but there is a roving officer who shows up on the doorstep post-haste. He enters the home, gets a briefing from the parents, and conducts a thorough search of the house. He doesn't notice the pivoting latch at the top of the wine cellar door, but he grasps the knob and gives a mighty pull, and the door comes open against the latch's puny restraint. The latch, itself, falls harmlessly to the carpeted floor.

    The officer searches for a light switch, finds one, and flips it to the "on" position. Let there be light. The room is illuminated in the stark glow of the makeshift lighting arrangement--a flourescent fixture, parked on an elevated shelf against a wall. There she is. That's her!

    What is there about the scene which confronts him that is evocative of kidnapping? She is carefully, comfortably wrapped in a white thermal blanket. A Barbie gown accompanies her. Her head is turned to her side. Her arms are thrust westward. Her bare feet are poised to catch the first faint rays of the rising winter sun. There is a cord wrapped tightly around her neck, and a similar cord binding her wrist/s. Her eyes are closed as if she were in slumber. There is no sound of breathing. There is tape over her mouth. The officer bends down and gently touches an exposed ankle. Immediately he knows---she's dead as a doornail.

    His mind races......and he instinctively reaches for his service revolver.
    Last edited by RedChief; 03-16-2005 at 12:55 AM. Reason: replace it's with its & dont with don't

  12. #12
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    Well postulated, sir. (1) Presumably, the crime scene would be better preserved. (2) With no note, & if the Rs didn't hire lawyers & did fully cooperate, I'd keep my babies close if I had any. (3) Then I'd start wondering why that nice Mrs. Ramsey was wearing the same outfit 2 days in a row. (But don't the suit fit nice.)

  13. #13
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    black coffee

    Quote Originally Posted by skybluepink
    Well postulated, sir. (1) Presumably, the crime scene would be better preserved. (2) With no note, & if the Rs didn't hire lawyers & did fully cooperate, I'd keep my babies close if I had any. (3) Then I'd start wondering why that nice Mrs. Ramsey was wearing the same outfit 2 days in a row. (But don't the suit fit nice.)

    Don't it make my brown eyes blue! Nice things come in recycled packages.

    Tell, me, Sky; you would be the one to know. Does a baby face equate to an immature personality? Does an immature personality equate to perfectionism?

    More to the point---what would prompt Patsy to write such a controversial ransom note? Vanity? Narcissism? Given the circumstances, isn't that hard to imagine? Why do people do outlandish things? Maybe just for attention? Patsy killed her daughter for attention? A variant of Munchausen syndrome by proxy? Might also explain the numerous visits to the pediatrician?

    How's that short story a'comin'?

    I'd better hit the hay, else my horse will eat my mattress...whoa there!

  14. #14
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    Why is there being instead of nothing? . . . Anyhow:
    Baby faces--I wouldn't think so, but you do?
    As for all the reasons you cited for writing the note--yeah, maybe.
    The story sucks, but thanks for ASKing. It does try to depict the character's motivation for writing the note. I could e-mail it to you sometime--or not, if that would be unforumlike behavior. I still haven't figured out how to respond to private messages on this forum, preoccupied as I am by figuring out how to use my new cell phone--including how do you know if it's on or off; I need to take a class.
    Hard as it to comprehend why she would write that note, it's even harder for me to imagine anyone else in the big wide wonderful world we live in writing it, so there you are--or were, before you hied off to bed.
    I'll get to the bottom of this or my name isn't SkyBluePink.
    Thanking you kindly.

  15. #15
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    "The parents will probably run around a bit, looking for her. If they don't find her, straightaway, they'll dial the gendarmes. They didn't think to look in the wine cellar; its door was latched from the outside. They checked under the beds and in the walk-in refrigerator, and in the garage to see if she'd decided to take an early-morning bike ride. No sign of her. Help!


    That's someting that always has bewildered me. Your daugther is missing, you have an strange ransom note, yoy search the house... but don't enter in the wine cellar because "the door is latched from the outside". I can't buy it. I can't understand it. House wasn't so big, an this door, later in the day, was opened quite easily by JBR. I think 90-99% of us, in that circumstances, would have opened this door after finding the Ransom note, even if it was locked with chains and concrete.

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