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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueShoe View Post
    Thanks for the photo. I always imagined these steps to be straight up and down, like a ladder. This actually makes me feel they would be easier to handle, unless you were subject to vertigo.
    The ladder from the 14th floor landing to the roof top is straight up and down. The ladders gong down, are the ladders that are slightly angled. The photographer that was taking the picture posted above was not on the roof looking down they were on the 14th floor fire escape landing taking a picture of the ladder leading down to the 12th floor landing. (13th floor is not counted)

    In this photo you can see the ladder leading to the roof top from the 14th floor fire escape landing and that it is straight up and down.


  2. #287
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    Yuppers, it's straight up.

    Here's a closeup view that, from the angle, was taken with a zoom lense.

    front fire escape ladder.JPG

    I think this is the other fire escape ladder at the side or rear.

    fire escape ladder 3.jpg

    fire escape ladder.jpg

    Going up the fire escape ladder between the wings would feel a lot easier.

    window to fire escape.jpg

    I suspect that's how most people got to the roof. They wouldn't have to go up through the alarmed door at the top fo the stairs

  3. #288
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  4. #289
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    im a fairly strong guy and have done rock/mountain climbing or climbing up a ladder to my house roof so based on my horse-sense, I would say that there is no way even a strong guy could carry elise to the rooftop using the ladder. the only way she went up the fire ladder is through her own power. carrying someone while climbing up a straight vertical ladder is a very dicey movement so i would discount it. imagine the perp, climbing up the vertical ladder and holding her in one hand ? maybe if she was tied to his back while going up, and even then, he would have to be one super-strong guy to do that not to mention the balancing act while going up plus how would he be able to tie her securely to his backside by himself ?
    to put it another way, carrying someone or a big object up a staircase is far easier than carrying someone/big object up a vertical ladder since you need 2 hands to grapple the ladder in order to go up. I cant imagine somene going up a vertical ladder with one hand, that would be foolishly risky.
    so if she was forced to the rooftop then it had to be through the door, and if that door is always alarmed/locked then its one of the staff who was the perp.
    it may be much easier to carry her to the rooftop via the ladder if there were 2 perps carrying her - one perp pulling or cradling her up while the second perp pushing her up the ladder simultaneously, and for this to happen ,ideally speaking, she would have to be unconscious already and not resisting or tied-up.
    as for the recent news that it was accidental and attributable to her bipolar issue, I would not agree with it unless her family agrees with it. my reason is that , her family knows her best for obvious reasons. if her family publicly disagrees with the official cause of death then i would say that her case ought to remain an unsolved case.
    Last edited by Pach; 06-26-2013 at 01:06 AM.

  5. #290
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    I believe he had an accomplice in my theory who helped.

    The fire escape is stairs (only at ladder at bottom street access
    And very top at roof) if that's the ladder you are referring to.

    As far as getting her body in the tank using a ladder, if one person stabilizes the ladder and the other brings the body up, I don't see how it would be impossible to lift her body up 6 rungs.

    Also, in my theory they climbed the red ladder outside of the mechanical room,



    got on top of the mechanical room roof, and then lowered her DOWN onto the tank - both jumped onto the tank and one held the door open and helped while the other suspect shoved her through tank opening.

    I also in my theory believe she was unconscious or possibly already deceased when they were moving her body to the tank AFTER the police had searched the hotel and rooftop with dogs (the canines never indicated Elisa's body being in the tanks the first few days after her disappearance. Strange? The water issues in the cecil didnt begin until mid-late February.)

    I believe her body was at a secondary crime scene apart from
    The Cecil during the initial investigative phase and then was taken back to the Cecil only after the suspects knew LE had searched. One suspect lives at Cecil in my opinion, the other suspect lives very near by in long term residence.

    MOO


    Thank u for posting.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Hip2BSquare View Post
    I believe her body was at a secondary crime scene apart from
    The Cecil during the initial investigative phase and then was taken back to the Cecil only after the suspects knew LE had searched. One suspect lives at Cecil in my opinion, the other suspect lives very near by in long term residence.

    MOO

    Thank u for posting.
    The delay on the water pressure issues is something that has not been investigated well enough IMO. Theoretically, you could recreate the cistern/plumbing situation and see how long it takes. If it turns out it is only a couple days, that would make the delay highly suspicious.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pach View Post
    snipped

    as for the recent news that it was accidental and attributable to her bipolar issue, I would not agree with it unless her family agrees with it. my reason is that , her family knows her best for obvious reasons. if her family publicly disagrees with the official cause of death then i would say that her case ought to remain an unsolved case.
    But think about how often families and friends are shocked by the deaths of their loved ones because it doesn't match what the person they thought they knew, whether it's due to suicide or some kind of accident (or O.D.). Parents don't always know their kids. I know I was doing some really dangerous things at Elisa's age that my parents were clueless about, and I was still very close to my parent. I even had debilitating psychological issues at that time that they had NO idea about. Plus, family often goes into denial, either because they psychologically block the negative realities of their loved one's life, or because they feel some sense of guilt : /

    I'm not pretending to understand Elisa's dad or his thinking process... just sharing some alternate explanations that I was thinking about earlier today

    I feel terrible for the family. It's one thing to have your child die, but it's especially difficult when it happens out of nowhere and you don't really understand or know what happened. I can't imagine how helpless I would feel. They seem a lot stronger than I would be. And I am glad her dad is speaking up, because he's one of the few people who might actually get more answers by shining some attention on this mysterious investigation.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickfalzone View Post
    But we don't know that she had any history of bi-polar psychosis, only that she was diagnosed as bi-polar. Keep in mind that you probably interact with bi-polar individuals on a daily basis, most of which have never been diagnosed or sought help for it.
    snipped
    Oh certainly, I know a number of bipolar people who have been diagnosed, and undoubtedly others who haven't. Ultimately bipolar disorder is a subjective diagnosis in the first place, primarily based on the DSM and often relatively arbitrary diagnosis by psychiatrists. I probably should qualify most of my comments about bipolar disorder by stating that I am referring to people with severe symptoms, like extreme polarity in moods (way beyond the average person) and bouts of psychosis.

    Based on EL's Tumblr, she seemed to verify that she had extreme depression. She described lengthy bouts of intense depression and isolation that impeded her basic life functioning. On the flip side, she reported periods when she would do things like say totally random comments to strangers while she was alone and then run away and find benches or seats that are perpendicular to each other. Strange to say the least, but clearly any judgement of her Tumblr entries are bound to whether they were truthful or not. To me they seemed quite honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton View Post
    My opinion: I did not find LE's behavior to be "cagey". They investigated a possible missing person's case. They released surveillance video of her last known movements. They had the family at the press conference. This all seems proper to me.
    snipped
    I was referring to the 'media blackout' when saying they were cagey. Personally I found their behavior to be very non-forthcoming compared to most other potential murder cases that I've witnessed, especially ones with very public, very mysterious circumstances. Of course there are reasons they may have behaved this way, but the amount of publicly-released details were extremely limited outside of the video. And even the few details they released have been found to be questionable or contradictory
    Quote Originally Posted by 2Hip2BSquare View Post
    Again I'm severe bipolar (with Borderline comorbidity) and I take similar meds to Elisa and I can say honestly that I've never acted like she did in that video - on OR off my meds.
    snipped
    I understand what you're saying, but bipolar people have different symptoms. This is made even more true by the subjective definitions/diagnosis of psychiatric disorders.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2Hip2BSquare View Post
    Thank you! Bipolar is more of a MOOD disorder rather than a personality disorder.

    They typically don't suffer the complete separation from reality even when manic (such as hallucinations and psychosis)...

    And if she were behaving Manic, I don't see why she would kill herself. Mania induces feelings of euphoria. Depression is the state that would drive a bipolar individual to commit suicide. IMO
    Bipolar disorder is associated with psychosis in many people. This is a fact. Delusions and psychosis are in no way limited to personality disorders, and some personality disorders have nothing to do with psychosis (ie. antisocial personality disorder). Again, these diagnosis are subjective to a large extent, and overlap, and some mood disorders, such as biopolar, are very similar to some personality disorders, such as borderline.

    And I don't anyone has ever suggested that she committed suicide (or at least no one around here). Accidental death is not suicide... it's a very different thing with different motivating factors. For instance, manic behavior can bring about delusional and invincible feelings that can lead to dangerous decisions that are not motivated by wanting to die.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by findinganatta View Post
    Oh certainly, I know a number of bipolar people who have been diagnosed, and undoubtedly others who haven't. Ultimately bipolar disorder is a subjective diagnosis in the first place, primarily based on the DSM and often relatively arbitrary diagnosis by psychiatrists. I probably should qualify most of my comments about bipolar disorder by stating that I am referring to people with severe symptoms, like extreme polarity in moods (way beyond the average person) and bouts of psychosis.

    Based on EL's Tumblr, she seemed to verify that she had extreme depression. She described lengthy bouts of intense depression and isolation that impeded her basic life functioning. On the flip side, she reported periods when she would do things like say totally random comments to strangers while she was alone and then run away and find benches or seats that are perpendicular to each other. Strange to say the least, but clearly any judgement of her Tumblr entries are bound to whether they were truthful or not. To me they seemed quite honest.

    I was referring to the 'media blackout' when saying they were cagey. Personally I found their behavior to be very non-forthcoming compared to most other potential murder cases that I've witnessed, especially ones with very public, very mysterious circumstances. Of course there are reasons they may have behaved this way, but the amount of publicly-released details were extremely limited outside of the video. And even the few details they released have been found to be questionable or contradictory

    I understand what you're saying, but bipolar people have different symptoms. This is made even more true by the subjective definitions/diagnosis of psychiatric disorders.

    Bipolar disorder is associated with psychosis in many people. This is a fact. Delusions and psychosis are in no way limited to personality disorders, and some personality disorders have nothing to do with psychosis (ie. antisocial personality disorder). Again, these diagnosis are subjective to a large extent, and overlap, and some mood disorders, such as biopolar, are very similar to some personality disorders, such as borderline.

    And I don't anyone has ever suggested that she committed suicide (or at least no one around here). Accidental death is not suicide... it's a very different thing with different motivating factors. For instance, manic behavior can bring about delusional and invincible feelings that can lead to dangerous decisions that are not motivated by wanting to die.
    Yes and I agree, but Elisa was Bipolar II.

    Huge difference diagnostically from Bipolar I as far as psychosis is concerned.

    http://bipolar.about.com/od/diagnosissymptoms/a/psychosis_symptoms_hub.htm

    "Psychotic symptoms are often present in the mania of Bipolar I disorder. The symptoms can also occur during depression and in many other disorders. The presence of psychosis automatically rules out a diagnosis of hypomania. Thus, people with both Bipolar 1 and Bipolar 2 can experience psychosis, but in Bipolar 2 they only appear during depressive episodes."

    Bipolar II typically doesn't reach full mania - it is more characterized by cycles of depression followed by cycle of hypomania - not mania. The depression is the more progressive of the cycles.

    Mania is typically what causes psychosis in Bipolar I, depression causes psychosis in Bipolar II.

    So I would have to assume she were acting that way in the elevator out of a depressive nervous breakdown?

    It could be possible.

    I'm just interested in us focusing more on the Bipolar II aspect of depression.

    If it were more of a depressive psychosis, the likelihood of her COD being suicidal versus accidental increases substantially.

    IMO
    Last edited by 2Hip2BSquare; 06-27-2013 at 05:00 PM.

  10. #295
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    And why coroner didn't specify between Bipolar II or Bipolar I is beyond confounding. IMO
    Last edited by 2Hip2BSquare; 06-27-2013 at 05:02 PM.


  11. #296
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    I believe the police finding the five medications Elisa took daily moved her into the 'endangered missing category'. They can read her dosage, see the amount of pills originally in the bottle, then see about the right amount is missing for her to have been taking them regularly. This would move her out of 'adult who has gone off on her own' to someone that something may have happened to.

    Although, I wonder how the police wound up taking the dogs to the roof. Were they just checking for the sake of checking, or did the dogs lead them there only to quickly lose the scent.

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