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  1. #1
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    Any Elisa Updates At All?

    Sometimes this board gets so inundated with threads and posts, it's hard to keep track. I search every week online. No new updates on this case. I feel bad for Elisa and her family. I do hope she gets justice, if it was indeed foul play.
    "How many more laws are we going to have to name after our dead children before we wake up and do something about it and stop this from happening."
    ---Sam Thompson, father of Somer Thompson

  2. #2
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    I don't believe there has been an actual update in the case in weeks. The toxicology test seems to be the only relevant thing anymore, which implies to me that the police believe foul play was not involved. I can't imagine they the LE would be saying absolutely nothing for this long if they were actively engaged in a murder investigation, but that's just my feeling.

  3. #3
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    That's usually the case with suicides, they won't comment further in the media. But the media is also not doing any follow-ups. To me, this just seems a bit too elaborate of a method to kill oneself. They never mentioned any suicide notes, and even if it was death by misadventure, they would still say something. It's very strange they are keeping a tight lid on this, not even any leaks. We can keep speculating till our faces turn blue, it doesn't mean a thing unless they release more information. I want to find out if her limbs were broken, as one chinese media outlet reported a week or two after her body was found. That would certainly rule out suicide. As would her being found nude, and her clothing wasn't in the area.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shlock Homes View Post
    That's usually the case with suicides, they won't comment further in the media. But the media is also not doing any follow-ups. To me, this just seems a bit too elaborate of a method to kill oneself. They never mentioned any suicide notes, and even if it was death by misadventure, they would still say something. It's very strange they are keeping a tight lid on this, not even any leaks. We can keep speculating till our faces turn blue, it doesn't mean a thing unless they release more information. I want to find out if her limbs were broken, as one chinese media outlet reported a week or two after her body was found. That would certainly rule out suicide. As would her being found nude, and her clothing wasn't in the area.
    I just posted about how there seem to be a media blackout but that got shot down. This, in spite of the fact there was a reporter on a Canadian News Station who informed viewers that they had an interview schedule with LAPD, but they called the day before and canceled stating that they were told by higher ups to not talk about the case at all.

    Agreed with you on the suicide. Breathing is such a primal function it seems your brain and body would fight at all costs. Suicide by drowning is extremely rare:

    Suicide by drowning is the act of deliberately submerging oneself in water or other liquid to prevent breathing and deprive the brain of oxygen. Due to the body's natural tendency to come up for air, drowning attempts often involve the use of a heavy object to overcome this reflex.

    It is among the least common methods of suicide, typically accounting for less than 2% of all reported suicides in the United States.[3]
    source: Wikipedia

    I would think this natural instinct would kick in if one was having a psychotic break ; the experts here have said she could still at times be quite lucid, so I question that she ended up in the tank due to a break with reality either. Although she could have realized what she had done then panicked. If that were the case there is usually always physiological evidence that the person fought to surface, from what I have read.

    I know the media is now ethically not supposed to report suicides as lead ins due to potential copy cats, though I can't imagine anyone wanting to climb into a water tank. If a suicide, waiting the full 2 months on the toxicology report with no hint in between on the investigation is just going to command that much more attention by the media when released, imo.

    The only other time other than suicide when media seem to work more in tandem with police is when there may be serial murder evidence. Not saying this is the case but how can we rule it out at this point?

  5. #5
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    I haven't been on the board in ages, just been so busy and so far behind in the posts. Bu I do check for news on Elisa every few days an am saddened that nothing new is being said. It's like the case dropped off of the face of the earth.

    She was found on feb 19.... Tox tests were estimated in 6-8 weeks correct? So we're at the 6 week mark now. Hopefully in a few more we will learn something new that will bring us closer to what happened to Elisa.

    I just don't believe she killed herself by drowning...but maybe she took something, an overdose, in the tank and died in there? So nobody would find her and try to resuscitate her? Especially if she was staying in a shared room? Far fetched but there is so much we don't know


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  6. #6
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    Hey, Li'l! Can I call you Li'l?

    It's good to see you around.

    If and when they ever announce anything definitive about what happened to Elisa, I don't think anything will surprise me. Well,... okay, maybe if it has to do with the tuberculosis test or the Chinese "ghost" phenomenon.
    TAPU'S BLOG
    Murder in the Hills

  7. #7
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    Just found these "updates" in Chinese. The free online translation is poor; however, they are dated 2/25 and 3/29. Looks like the police is in contact with Canadian media on the status of the case and LE's Tumblr confirmed by press.

    Two big news bits: police speculation she was not in the tank the entire time??

    Murder investigation still ongoing and police have killer's identity but info too sensitive?? investigation is becoming a cold case...

    Have these been translated here?? have not seen them and probably speculation but it "reads" like some of the info may be directly from LAPD...

    Liberty Times: Body moved


    Liberty Times: Cold case
    Last edited by Conductor71; 04-03-2013 at 10:46 AM. Reason: grammar

  8. #8
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    This just found too. Not so sure on reliability of sources but this refers to EL's aunt and originates from Voice of China news in Hong Kong.

    It says EL in LA to meet/see someone.

    She was also considering working in LA?

    Voice of China news (via ohsnap)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conductor71 View Post
    snipped
    Agreed with you on the suicide. Breathing is such a primal function it seems your brain and body would fight at all costs. Suicide by drowning is extremely rare:

    Suicide by drowning is the act of deliberately submerging oneself in water or other liquid to prevent breathing and deprive the brain of oxygen. Due to the body's natural tendency to come up for air, drowning attempts often involve the use of a heavy object to overcome this reflex.

    It is among the least common methods of suicide, typically accounting for less than 2% of all reported suicides in the United States.[3]
    source: Wikipedia

    I would think this natural instinct would kick in if one was having a psychotic break ; the experts here have said she could still at times be quite lucid, so I question that she ended up in the tank due to a break with reality either. Although she could have realized what she had done then panicked. If that were the case there is usually always physiological evidence that the person fought to surface, from what I have read.
    My working theory of how/why she could have drowned, even if she got into the tank herself, is that she simply couldn't get out due to the configuration of the tank in terms of pulling herself back out. If that were the case, either panic or sheer exhaustion could have lead to drowning.

    I definitely doubt that she 'drowned herself' in the sense that she forced herself underwater with express intention of drowning, purely from a physical/psychological standpoint--that seems virtually impossible to do no matter what state you're in. Although it does seem that the possibility of accidentally inhaling water and drowning might increase if she was in an altered state of mind due to mental health issues or drugs/alcohol.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by findinganatta View Post
    My working theory of how/why she could have drowned, even if she got into the tank herself, is that she simply couldn't get out due to the configuration of the tank in terms of pulling herself back out. If that were the case, either panic or sheer exhaustion could have lead to drowning.

    I definitely doubt that she 'drowned herself' in the sense that she forced herself underwater with express intention of drowning, purely from a physical/psychological standpoint--that seems virtually impossible to do no matter what state you're in. Although it does seem that the possibility of accidentally inhaling water and drowning might increase if she was in an altered state of mind due to mental health issues or drugs/alcohol.
    BBM

    I absolutely agree; I can see the argument that she was suffering from a psychotic episode and sought "refuge" inside the tank, and the lid closed on her. Some of us see it preposterous that someone put her there and I see it just as unlikely she did this herself. I will skip the leaps in logic we all need to make at this point as to how she even made it undetected to the roof regardless of what manner of death we favor; either alone or with a killer, it took a lot of effort to get into that tank. I have spent some time researching the tank construction and standards or codes that including safety features because this is where accident and suicide as manner of death fall apart for me.

    First the tanks were not at all being close to up to national code (AWWA). There should have been no ladders readily accessible and the lid should have been retrofitted at the very least unless maybe the Cecil was exempt as an historic building. In addition there are OSHA standards and that looks like a permit is needed for these tanks give that they fit the hazards of working in confined space and have the potential to engulf someone.

    The lid itself, although hinged, looks designed to be either on or off entirely, not with a locking mechanism (like a car hood) to remain partially open on its own. This means EL would have to hold the lid open with one hand while supporting herself with the other to climb into tank on her own. I suppose this is possible, but I think that she would have known the lid would slam closed before she was inside. Of course, I am not sure one would be lucid enough to know this when in a psychotic break but again there I think instinct would take over... maybe it did but a second too late as she was letting go.

    I understand all is possible when some one is disengaged with reality but this just requires way too much knowledge on EL's part of the hotel for this to even happen in the first place. She was not a fan of the building to begin with, so I cannot see her looking for water or a hiding place on the roof. That is actually, if one is attempting to hide, the most obvious place to get trapped. The fire door does not open from the outside, for starters. There is only one other way down beyond the fire escape.

    Why not stand under a shower for a water source or in a hide in a housekeeping closet? Not to mention, ironically, that her hiding place was so stellar she evaded K9 and police detection for weeks? Statistically, with all respect to our experts, I find little to no reference to anyone dying accidentally as secondary to psychosis by either drowning or being trapped in a confined space. In fact, I think that wanting to be enclosed in a tube would be the last thing someone experiencing paranoia would seek to do, I know it is very possible, just in my opinion, I think it unlikely.

    Everything about this looks staged to me. The LAPD seems to see this as an equivocal death, and they are commendably not rushing to any conclusions. If they are leaning toward suicide or accident; from what I have read, a forensic psychology autopsy might be required. The toxicology will reveal the cause of death, but the manner relies on other evidence. I just hope they come up with enough evidence to know for sure what happened to EL. If this is due to mental health issues, I hope that something good can come of it for others.
    Last edited by Conductor71; 04-04-2013 at 02:43 PM. Reason: can't keep hatch and hinge straight


  11. #11
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    Very well expressed. And to take it a bit further:

    So you are EL, and you for whatever reasons have decided to put yourself in the water tank.

    You have climbed up on the top of the tank, opened the lid, put your legs in the opening and sat down on the edge of the opening.

    There is not ladder inside the tank, and depending on the level of the water, you can feel it with your feet, and possibly see it rippling because of the influx of water.

    Then you have to edge your rear end off the edge, holding one (left) hand on the edge of the opening while the other (right) hand is holding the end of the lid and pulling it to a closed position.

    Then you have to lower yourself further into the tank, using the strength of your left arm while your right hand continues to lower the lid.

    Then you have to let go of the edge of the opening and fall into the tank and let the lid close over you. With no way of reaching up to the lid again, unless the water level rises to the point that you could touch it. And no way of climbing out again.

    Oh, sure.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conductor71 View Post
    Just found these "updates" in Chinese. The free online translation is poor; however, they are dated 2/25 and 3/29. Looks like the police is in contact with Canadian media on the status of the case and LE's Tumblr confirmed by press.

    Two big news bits: police speculation she was not in the tank the entire time??

    Murder investigation still ongoing and police have killer's identity but info too sensitive?? investigation is becoming a cold case...

    Have these been translated here?? have not seen them and probably speculation but it "reads" like some of the info may be directly from LAPD...

    Liberty Times: Body moved


    Liberty Times: Cold case
    From your 'Body Moved' link, using Google translation:

    ----------------------------------------
    Canadian local television report, a close friend of suspected blue children blue girls before being drugged, and murderers hiding in about 15 days. Police speculated that the water quality testing of the Cecil Hotel on February 14 normal, blue child death time around after February 1, so the police analysis, the killer may 14th water quality testing is completed, and only then the blue can children thrown water tower.

    In addition, there are users to find the suspected blue children's blog, which refers to (1) zombie survival game Left 4 Dead (Left 4 Dead), a hurdle in the game, players need to break from the fictional hotel's top floor zombie surrounded Take the elevator to escape.
    ----------------------------------------

    Interesting. This article was dated Feb 25th. It refers to Canadian local TV, yet, I don't recall seeing any online TV reports mentioning any of this. What about her blog and mention of a zombie survival game?

    Does this all sound realistic, or just some fantasy inventions by the chinese media? I mean, she didn't look like she was running or hiding from anything when she firsts enters the elevator. But if she was drugged, that might explain her initial casual walk.

    Edit: I was trying to find information on Left 4 Dead and seeing if they had an real life role playing, but then stumbled across this earlier posting in Websleuths where BlazerJH gave a good analysis of Elisa tumblr and the game.

    [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8918253"]CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2 - Page 20 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shlock Homes View Post
    From your 'Body Moved' link, using Google translation:

    ----------------------------------------
    Canadian local television report, a close friend of suspected blue children blue girls before being drugged, and murderers hiding in about 15 days. Police speculated that the water quality testing of the Cecil Hotel on February 14 normal, blue child death time around after February 1, so the police analysis, the killer may 14th water quality testing is completed, and only then the blue can children thrown water tower.

    In addition, there are users to find the suspected blue children's blog, which refers to (1) zombie survival game Left 4 Dead (Left 4 Dead), a hurdle in the game, players need to break from the fictional hotel's top floor zombie surrounded Take the elevator to escape.
    ----------------------------------------

    Interesting. This article was dated Feb 25th. It refers to Canadian local TV, yet, I don't recall seeing any online TV reports mentioning any of this. What about her blog and mention of a zombie survival game?

    Does this all sound realistic, or just some fantasy inventions by the chinese media? I mean, she didn't look like she was running or hiding from anything when she firsts enters the elevator. But if she was drugged, that might explain her initial casual walk.

    Edit: I was trying to find information on Left 4 Dead and seeing if they had an real life role playing, but then stumbled across this earlier posting in Websleuths where BlazerJH gave a good analysis of Elisa tumblr and the game.

    CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2 - Page 20 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
    Re the Feb 25 info, I've seen numerous online articles where the only change to info is that the date is edited, so am thinking this is just old info with a new date to make it look like up-to-the-minute. FWIW, the snippet re the water quality Feb 14 isn't accurate as she wasn't even found until Feb 19.

    WRT Left 4 Dead role playing, this is real preliminary, but google "l4d irl" and
    it certainly exists. Example:

    http://beefjack.com/features/l4d-irl...8-hours-later/

  14. #14
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    If Elisa were obsessed with Left 4 Dead, I would have expected it to have had a much bigger presence on her Tumblr, among other things. It's one of those things that she mentioned once, and people have run with it saying she was obsessed. Someone in her age range mentioning L4D once is not at all an unusual thing -- it's an extremely popular game. Partly because it's fun to play multiplayer, and partly because zombies are such a huge thing in pop culture right now.

    Besides, the campaign that is often cited is at the tail end (5th level) of just one campaign. There are more than dozen campaigns in L4D1 and L4D2. I see absolutely no reason why she would focus on just a small part of one campaign and "act it out"...when her actions in the elevator are nothing like the game, and the only resemblance between that tiny fraction of L4D and her actions in the first place is that there is a rooftop involved. Nothing about climbing into a water tank, nothing about her strange behaviour in the elevator... There is literally nothing that links her actions to the game, imho.

    I feel very strongly that this is a very big leap in logic, and people are trying to make puzzle pieces fit with very little actual evidence. I have a strong feeling that the folks pushing for a link between L4D & Elisa's actions have never actually played L4D, and so are picking and choosing small aspects of the game with strong confirmation bias, trying to make an explanation fit.

    I hope that doesn't sound too judgemental or disrespectful...I just hate to see an investigation veer off course.
    Last edited by kunibob; 04-05-2013 at 04:20 PM. Reason: clarifying
    Lurker since 2009...finally contributing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kunibob View Post
    If Elisa were obsessed with Left 4 Dead, I would have expected it to have had a much bigger presence on her Tumblr, among other things. It's one of those things that she mentioned once, and people have run with it saying she was obsessed. Someone in her age range mentioning L4D once is not at all an unusual thing -- it's an extremely popular game. Partly because it's fun to play multiplayer, and partly because zombies are such a huge thing in pop culture right now.

    Besides, the campaign that is often cited is at the tail end (5th level) of just one campaign. There are more than dozen campaigns in L4D1 and L4D2. I see absolutely no reason why she would focus on just a small part of one campaign and "act it out"...when her actions in the elevator are nothing like the game, and the only resemblance between that tiny fraction of L4D and her actions in the first place is that there is a rooftop involved. Nothing about climbing into a water tank, nothing about her strange behaviour in the elevator... There is literally nothing that links her actions to the game, imho.

    I feel very strongly that this is a very big leap in logic, and people are trying to make puzzle pieces fit with very little actual evidence. I have a strong feeling that the folks pushing for a link between L4D & Elisa's actions have never actually played L4D, and so are picking and choosing small aspects of the game with strong confirmation bias, trying to make an explanation fit.

    I hope that doesn't sound too judgemental or disrespectful...I just hate to see an investigation veer off course.
    Oh I agree .. I didn't get an impression that she was into it much at all. I just provided some quick info in relation to another WSrs post about whether or not it was played out in real life.

    We have no clue what investigation is on or off course, and at WS we welcome, consider and discuss all theories (well almost ... alien abduction thingies are generally considered out to lunch by most of us )

    PS: Having said that, she did bump up her interest in some guy a notch due to his liking L4D. It was something that impressed her.

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