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  1. #1
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    Happenings of December 26

    Madeleine made a recent comment on another thread about the Ramsey behavior and comments on the 26th 'before they were able to get their stories straight'.

    We spend a lot of time talking about all the clues of the case, but I wonder if we take time to just consider what happened and was said between the time French arrived and the time the R's were driven away from the home, if it would give us another look at details of the crime as seen from the perspective of LE just that day.

    If the Ramseys would have been taken into custody that day, we might never have had to consider anything else the Ramsey's said. What might be the theory we arrive at of who murdered JB just by considering the first 12 - 15 hours after the 911 call was placed?

    Lets start with this: Patsy made the frantic 911 call, and met Officer French outside the front door of their home, nearly streetside, wearing a red sweater and black velvet jeans, looking well coifed and made up. She had admittedly worn this clothing the night before to attend a Christmas Party as the White's. She ushered French into the home, where he was met by John, who was freshly groomed and wearing fresh khakis and a striped shirt, which were not worn by him to same party. Patsy reported that day that she believed John was in the shower when she awakened, went to her bathroom and prepared herself to begin their early day just prior to flying in the private plane to meet the older children in Minnesota before going on to their planned gathering in Michigan.
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwest mama View Post
    Madeleine made a recent comment on another thread about the Ramsey behavior and comments on the 26th 'before they were able to get their stories straight'.

    We spend a lot of time talking about all the clues of the case, but I wonder if we take time to just consider what happened and was said between the time French arrived and the time the R's were driven away from the home, if it would give us another look at details of the crime as seen from the perspective of LE just that day.

    If the Ramseys would have been taken into custody that day, we might never have had to consider anything else the Ramsey's said. What might be the theory we arrive at of who murdered JB just by considering the first 12 - 15 hours after the 911 call was placed?

    Lets start with this: Patsy made the frantic 911 call, and met Officer French outside the front door of their home, nearly streetside, wearing a red sweater and black velvet jeans, looking well coifed and made up. She had admittedly worn this clothing the night before to attend a Christmas Party as the White's. She ushered French into the home, where he was met by John, who was freshly groomed and wearing fresh khakis and a striped shirt, which were not worn by him to same party. Patsy reported that day that she believed John was in the shower when she awakened, went to her bathroom and prepared herself to begin their early day just prior to flying in the private plane to meet the older children in Minnesota before going on to their planned gathering in Michigan.
    midwest mama,
    Well depending on your favorite theory, JR and PR have had an informal chat prior to meeting Officer French, or one of the two is deceiving the other, so they are acting independently of events.

    One striking observation is that JR appears the picture of normality: showered, gelled, clean clothes, hair combed etc. Whereas Patsy appears the opposite: same old clothes, no shower or wash, possibly some deoderant.

    Despite some theories that claim it was all JR and that he duped Patsy, with her unexpectantly dialling 911. The above image suggests the opposite, its as if Patsy has been so busy all night, she has never had time to change, anyway she knows her forensics are all over JonBenet?

    So what would Columbo make of this: Mr Ramsey showers and dresses in clean clothes, Mrs Ramsey does neither, why the different approach?

    .

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    So what would Columbo make of this: Mr Ramsey showers and dresses in clean clothes, Mrs Ramsey does neither, why the different approach?

    .
    Well, if you don't mind, I am going to put a few ideas out there.
    I think this could mean several things

    1. They both knew she was dead and both were involved in coverup. JR was not bothered too much over JBR's death. He was calm, cool and collected and freshened up, while Patsy was to distraught to function.

    2. JR didn't know what was going on until after he had dressed.

    3. JR NEEDED to shower, he was sweating from running all over the place and staging, or he needed to get evidence off of him.

    4. They were both planning on showering, but started to run out of time. They had to notice JB's disappearance at about the time they would be getting up to get ready to leave for the flight to make the story work.

    Those are some of the ones I can come up.

  4. #4
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    JR's attempt to "flee the state" shortly after JB's body was "found" speaks volumes IMO. I'm surprised BPD didn't arrest them both right then and there. Funny, they were supposed to be headed to MI that day, back to Boulder a couple days later, and to FL for a cruise immediately after that. Where did the "urgent business meeting" in Atlanta come from?

    What parent wants to get as far away from their dead child as they can, as fast as they can? Did JR set up some kind of meeting that morning, and if so why and with whom? If not, then why was he so anxious to get to Atlanta and out of Boulder? What innocent explanation can there possibly be?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nom de plume View Post
    JR's attempt to "flee the state" shortly after JB's body was "found" speaks volumes IMO. I'm surprised BPD didn't arrest them both right then and there. Funny, they were supposed to be headed to MI that day, back to Boulder a couple days later, and to FL for a cruise immediately after that. Where did the "urgent business meeting" in Atlanta come from?

    What parent wants to get as far away from their dead child as they can, as fast as they can? Did JR set up some kind of meeting that morning, and if so why and with whom? If not, then why was he so anxious to get to Atlanta and out of Boulder? What innocent explanation can there possibly be?
    IIRC, Archuletta also suggested later that day that he use the private plane to go to Minneapolis after all to meet the kids and bring them back to Denver to make that leg of the trip easier for them, but JR said no because he wanted to keep the plane "available". Shouts out that JR had being able to get somewhere else quickly at the front of his mind.

    Another thing about this case that seems so 'off' to me is the aforehand assistance of JR that the first family Christmas celebration with the older kids should be held in Michigan - with only 2 days (part of which would have to be used for transportation) between Christmas and the R's needing to be back in Boulder to gear up for the Disney trip which included a commercial flight out on the 28th.

    But, now in recognizing JR's insistence that the plane be kept at the ready, it makes me think that the only way he could have had a plane available that day is because of the planned Michigan trip. He spent about 3 hours on Christmas day readying the plane himself on the 25th, just so it would be ready on the 26th. Otherwise, without the planned trip, there would have been no plane at the ready to go to get him to the "business that he had to attend to in Atlanta" and leave that day.

    The first Christmas with the older kids should have been planned for Boulder, not Michigan, allowing for all the extra work Patsy had to throw in the mix of already adding the Dec 23 party to her schedule. Using the Michigan house required even more additional maneuvering from Patsy.
    And the kids certainly could have been ushered to Boulder via the private plane for Christmas much more easily. In supposing this was the plan, an intruder surely would have had no clue, and JB's death might still have happened just as it did.

    Yep, the Michigan trip then achieved two things: Keep the older kids away, and make sure the plane was ready to be used first thing the 26th.
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwest mama View Post
    IIRC, Archuletta also suggested later that day that he use the private plane to go to Minneapolis after all to meet the kids and bring them back to Denver to make that leg of the trip easier for them, but JR said no because he wanted to keep the plane "available". Shouts out that JR had being able to get somewhere else quickly at the front of his mind.

    Another thing about this case that seems so 'off' to me is the aforehand assistance of JR that the first family Christmas celebration with the older kids should be held in Michigan - with only 2 days (part of which would have to be used for transportation) between Christmas and the R's needing to be back in Boulder to gear up for the Disney trip which included a commercial flight out on the 28th.

    But, now in recognizing JR's insistence that the plane be kept at the ready, it makes me think that the only way he could have had a plane available that day is because of the planned Michigan trip. He spent about 3 hours on Christmas day readying the plane himself on the 25th, just so it would be ready on the 26th. Otherwise, without the planned trip, there would have been no plane at the ready to go to get him to the "business that he had to attend to in Atlanta" and leave that day.

    The first Christmas with the older kids should have been planned for Boulder, not Michigan, allowing for all the extra work Patsy had to throw in the mix of already adding the Dec 23 party to her schedule. Using the Michigan house required even more additional maneuvering from Patsy.
    And the kids certainly could have been ushered to Boulder via the private plane for Christmas much more easily. In supposing this was the plan, an intruder surely would have had no clue, and JB's death might still have happened just as it did.

    Yep, the Michigan trip then achieved two things: Keep the older kids away, and make sure the plane was ready to be used first thing the 26th.


    BBM You nailed it MM! I always knew there was something fishy about JR insisting on that trip to MI, but I couldn't figure out how it would benefit him. You're exactly right. Had the two older kids, and the fiance, been in the house the night of the 25th or the morning of the 26th, it would have been too risky. I think he hoped to pull off the intruder, pedophile, monster theory, but if that didn't work, he wanted a way to get out fast. Since the plan, IMO, to get her out of the house was foiled by PR's 911 call, he probably expected to be arrested on the 26th. Plus obviously, by his own statements, intended to skip town that day, and if he was suspected by LE, he knew he'd never be able to get on a commercial flight.

    What would have happened had LE not overheard his plans to fly to Atlanta? Would anyone ever have seen JR, PR, or BR again?

    Do we know exactly when the trip was first mentioned? How far before the 26th? I can't remember. This just makes me believe all the more that her murder was planned ahead of time, and he knew they would never be going to Charlevoix. Atlanta would be a good place to fuel up before heading out of the country too.... Drop the older kids off and split. I'd bet if they'd checked, there would be searches on the computers for countries that don't extradite back to the states.

  7. #7
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    Nom de plume - from your post:
    Atlanta would be a good place to fuel up before heading out of the country too.... Drop the older kids off and split. I'd bet if they'd checked, there would be searches on the computers for countries that don't extradite back to the states.

    Wow, wouldn't that be interesting? But, with all the international dealings that JR's company had, could searches like that have gotten shuffled into the mix? Google just provided a comprehensive list of countries that do not have extradition treaties with the US, but who do share diplomatic practices. But there are still several who do neither.
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?

  8. #8
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    Iirc, there was published talk about the Ramseys having been set to head fly to Spain not many months after JonBenet's death. Patsy and John responded that the trip was for John's business ventures and (paraphrased) "how dare you imply we were trying to get out of Dodge."

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwest mama View Post
    Madeleine made a recent comment on another thread about the Ramsey behavior and comments on the 26th 'before they were able to get their stories straight'.

    We spend a lot of time talking about all the clues of the case, but I wonder if we take time to just consider what happened and was said between the time French arrived and the time the R's were driven away from the home, if it would give us another look at details of the crime as seen from the perspective of LE just that day.

    If the Ramseys would have been taken into custody that day, we might never have had to consider anything else the Ramsey's said. What might be the theory we arrive at of who murdered JB just by considering the first 12 - 15 hours after the 911 call was placed?

    Lets start with this: Patsy made the frantic 911 call, and met Officer French outside the front door of their home, nearly streetside, wearing a red sweater and black velvet jeans, looking well coifed and made up. She had admittedly worn this clothing the night before to attend a Christmas Party as the White's. She ushered French into the home, where he was met by John, who was freshly groomed and wearing fresh khakis and a striped shirt, which were not worn by him to same party. Patsy reported that day that she believed John was in the shower when she awakened, went to her bathroom and prepared herself to begin their early day just prior to flying in the private plane to meet the older children in Minnesota before going on to their planned gathering in Michigan.

    IMO the fact that PR is in the same clothes she wore to the party argues strongly that she was not involved.

    How many episodes of CSI does one need to watch to know better than to present the police with forensic evidence?

    As an aside, I think we "webslueths" have forensics on the brain much more so than most people - and much more so today than in '96. Still, with even a modicum of forensic awareness, would PR have called the police to her home to display herself in the clothes she wore all night if she were involved? It's seems unlikely. Shower, change, throw last nights clothe in the washer - pretty elementary stuff. She didn't bother, probably because she wasn't involved.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Iirc, there was published talk about the Ramseys having been set to head fly to Spain not many months after JonBenet's death. Patsy and John responded that the trip was for John's business ventures and (paraphrased) "how dare you imply we were trying to get out of Dodge."
    The reaction they had is called "filibustering" according to Wendy Murphy's book. Included in that category is offensive language retorts, i.e. "Bullsh**" spouted by Jr a couple of times during his interviews. Lawyers coach suspects on how and when to do it, and it is most usually used by those who are highly suspect of being guilty.

    The trip to Spain was sometime between Christmas 1997 and Feb 6, 1998.
    The R's declined to attend a special Memorial Service on Dec 14 at the First United Methodist Church in Boulder arranged by friends, because they did not want to deal with the media. According to DOI, the R's had decided to spend Christmas 1997 in Florida. Jim Marino's info about the Ramseys going to Spain appeared in the Rocky Mountain News on Feb 6, 1998:

    John Ramsey went to Spain recently to investigate a possible business venture, not to scout locations for a new home, a longtime friend said Thursday.

    Ramsey, now a consultant for Lockheed Martin Corp. in Atlanta, traveled to Spain with his wife, Patsy, to check out a software company that produces a video software package, Jim Marino said.

    "He is not looking to move to Spain. He was looking at the possibility of buying the rights to distribute the software in the U.S.,'' said Marino, who has been a Ramsey friend and business associate for more than 20 years.

    Speculation that the Ramseys were planning to move overseas began after a reporter for a supermarket weekly followed them on a recent trip to Spain. Rumors spread that the Ramseys wanted to flee to Spain to avoid extradition if they were ever charged in the murder of their 6-year-old daughter, JonBenet.

    "That sounds like a ridiculous proposition, because we do have an extradition treaty with Spain,'' said Curt Bradley, a University of Colorado professor of international law.

    "That treaty certainly covers murder.''

    The Ramseys have insisted they are innocent in the Dec. 26, 1996, death of JonBenet, whose battered body was found in the basement of the family's Boulder mini-mansion by her father. Police have said the Ramseys remain under an "umbrella of suspicion.'' No arrests have been made and no charges brought in the 14-month-old investigation.

    Ramsey attorneys have said the couple and their 11-year-old son, Burke, have no plans to leave Atlanta, where they moved last summer and are surrounded by family and close friends.

    Ramsey became a Lockheed consultant after the company traded his Boulder-based Access Graphics to a division of General Electric Co. in a $2.8 billion stock swap in November. Ramsey, who built Access into a $1 billion company, also has been investigating other business opportunities, Marino said.

    "John's a hands-on guy. He went out and looked at (the software company) on his own,'' Marino said of the Spain trip. "It's not a done deal. It's just something he's interested in.''John Ramsey went to Spain recently to investigate a possible business venture, not to scout locations for a new home, a longtime friend said Thursday.

    Ramsey, now a consultant for Lockheed Martin Corp. in Atlanta, traveled to Spain with his wife, Patsy, to check out a software company that produces a video software package, Jim Marino said.

    "He is not looking to move to Spain. He was looking at the possibility of buying the rights to distribute the software in the U.S.,'' said Marino, who has been a Ramsey friend and business associate for more than 20 years.

    Speculation that the Ramseys were planning to move overseas began after a reporter for a supermarket weekly followed them on a recent trip to Spain. Rumors spread that the Ramseys wanted to flee to Spain to avoid extradition if they were ever charged in the murder of their 6-year-old daughter, JonBenet.

    "That sounds like a ridiculous proposition, because we do have an extradition treaty with Spain,'' said Curt Bradley, a University of Colorado professor of international law.

    "That treaty certainly covers murder.''

    The Ramseys have insisted they are innocent in the Dec. 26, 1996, death of JonBenet, whose battered body was found in the basement of the family's Boulder mini-mansion by her father. Police have said the Ramseys remain under an "umbrella of suspicion.'' No arrests have been made and no charges brought in the 14-month-old investigation.

    Ramsey attorneys have said the couple and their 11-year-old son, Burke, have no plans to leave Atlanta, where they moved last summer and are surrounded by family and close friends.

    Ramsey became a Lockheed consultant after the company traded his Boulder-based Access Graphics to a division of General Electric Co. in a $2.8 billion stock swap in November. Ramsey, who built Access into a $1 billion company, also has been investigating other business opportunities, Marino said.

    "John's a hands-on guy. He went out and looked at (the software company) on his own,'' Marino said of the Spain trip. "It's not a done deal. It's just something he's interested in.''


    What I find interesting is that as a consultant for Lockheed, certainly JR would have had to make other trips of this kind, but the press did not feel it necessary to "validate" each of them. The rumors of Ramseys looking for an out of country residence at that time must have been pretty strong.
    We want the truth, but can we handle the truth?


  11. #11
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    I wonder if they had passports for everyone. If they perhaps intended to move there they would have also had a passport for Burke. Did they ever travel overseas, and take the children? If they did JBR would have had a passport too, and when did those passports originate?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    IMO the fact that PR is in the same clothes she wore to the party argues strongly that she was not involved.

    How many episodes of CSI does one need to watch to know better than to present the police with forensic evidence?

    As an aside, I think we "webslueths" have forensics on the brain much more so than most people - and much more so today than in '96. Still, with even a modicum of forensic awareness, would PR have called the police to her home to display herself in the clothes she wore all night if she were involved? It's seems unlikely. Shower, change, throw last nights clothe in the washer - pretty elementary stuff. She didn't bother, probably because she wasn't involved.
    Chrishope,
    As per usual your grasp of reasoning lets you down.

    Wearing the same clothes and viewing CSI which comes after the first statement have no connection, other than whatever matches your personal theory.

    Otherwise you must argue PR had knowledge which predates all the CSI programs, duh!

    What does Iggy Pop say in his adverts: Get A Life?

    .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Chrishope,
    As per usual your grasp of reasoning lets you down.

    Wearing the same clothes and viewing CSI which comes after the first statement have no connection, other than whatever matches your personal theory.

    Otherwise you must argue PR had knowledge which predates all the CSI programs, duh!

    What does Iggy Pop say in his adverts: Get A Life?

    .
    The connection, obviously, is that even with a minimal awareness of forensics PR would be smart enough not to offer forensic evidence unnecessarily. Had she been up all night murdering/staging she'd have showered, and threw her clothes in the washer to eliminate trace evidence.

    Additionally, there were many people at the party who could confirm what she wore. Why then answer the door (to let in the police she called herself) in the same clothes from the night before?

    You've taken the timeline too seriously. CSI does post-date the murder, but it's not like CSI is the first show ever to deal with forensics. I just use CSI as a stand in for all forensics/detective shows. PR would not have had to have a great deal of forensic knowledge or awareness to take the very basic precautions of changing clothes. Even watching Columbo would be sufficient to tip her she needed to change clothes.

    Yet she didn't change clothes.

    JR showered and changed. Maybe that means nothing. He may have habitually showered in the morning. Some people do. (I prefer to shower before bed). Then again, maybe he had a reason for wanting to shower and change? If PR was co-conspirator, to any extent, she'd have had the same reasons for needing a shower and a change.

    Yet she didn't change.

    It would have taken all of 3 minutes, if that, to change. Surely she had that much time. She had a closet full of clothes to change into. Yet she doesn't change. I don't figure she was phenomenally stupid.
    Last edited by Chrishope; 04-14-2013 at 08:32 AM.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nom de plume View Post


    BBM You nailed it MM! I always knew there was something fishy about JR insisting on that trip to MI, but I couldn't figure out how it would benefit him. You're exactly right. Had the two older kids, and the fiance, been in the house the night of the 25th or the morning of the 26th, it would have been too risky. I think he hoped to pull off the intruder, pedophile, monster theory, but if that didn't work, he wanted a way to get out fast. Since the plan, IMO, to get her out of the house was foiled by PR's 911 call, he probably expected to be arrested on the 26th. Plus obviously, by his own statements, intended to skip town that day, and if he was suspected by LE, he knew he'd never be able to get on a commercial flight.

    What would have happened had LE not overheard his plans to fly to Atlanta? Would anyone ever have seen JR, PR, or BR again?

    Do we know exactly when the trip was first mentioned? How far before the 26th? I can't remember. This just makes me believe all the more that her murder was planned ahead of time, and he knew they would never be going to Charlevoix. Atlanta would be a good place to fuel up before heading out of the country too.... Drop the older kids off and split. I'd bet if they'd checked, there would be searches on the computers for countries that don't extradite back to the states.
    If it had been premeditated wouldn't it have been clearer? That is, wouldn't it be clearly a kidnapping -with the body gone- or wouldn't it have been a sex murder with the body all too obviously on display, and not redressed? Why two competing narratives that are at cross purposes?

    There were both a severe blow to the head -fatal in itself, if time were allowed to pass- then there was the strangulation. Why two different murder methods for a crime well thought out in advance?

    IMO, the crime scene/staging is not consistent with premeditation and prior planning. If the murder was not premeditated then the trip plans were not made with murder in mind.

    I think too much is being read into the Michigan trip. They owned a vacation home in Michigan. They owned a private plane. It doesn't strike me as odd that they'd arrange a Christmas gathering in Charlevoix. That's what vacation homes are for. I will say that the people I've known from Mich would consider it a vacation to be out of state at that time of year - FL/AZ, someplace warm. But JR grew up in Mich, maybe he liked the snowy "White Christmas" feel of the place. I'd always assumed that the Charlevoix house was the "summering" house, but when you think of it Charlevoix is the perfect "Christmas-y" sort of place, if you like that kind of thing.

    It would have been a lot of extra flying for JAR/MR if they'd come to Boulder then back to Mich.

    As pointed out, they could all have had Christmas together in Boulder but what's the fun of owning a 2nd house and a plane if you aren't going to use them?
    Last edited by Chrishope; 04-14-2013 at 09:05 AM.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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    One story that isn't straight on the 26th, or at least not straight with the narrative that develops after LS get's involved, is JRs insistence that the intruder did not break in by force. IOWs, JR is pushing the "inside job" theory.

    JR makes sure the police know he checked all doors/windows to be sure they were locked. He also tells the silly story of breaking the window, months prior, when he supposedly forgets his house key. http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/...-basement.html

    He tells police it must be an "inside job", e.g. someone with a key.

    4 months later, at the police interviews, and ever since, he's pushing the intruder through the window theory.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

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