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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zapped View Post
    I dont think so, a star is one of the first symbols a kid learns how to draw...right behind a square and a circle. If the edges had been a little rounded I could see that but these look to be done that way deliberately, especially considering the sharpness of the other points and the symmetrical nature of the rounded corners.
    Straight lines in drawing can be a skill for some. And straight lines in tattooing are even more of a skill, and this is an amateur tattoo. This tattoo is full of imperfections and inconsistencies. The rounded sides are not on the same side.

    If this were a heartagram or something like that before HIM "invented" it, the bottom point of a heart would be more pointed than this.

  2. #32
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    Jason had a second tattoo not the star. Unfortunately I can't attach the image. Has anyone seen it and have any ideas?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mae View Post
    Straight lines in drawing can be a skill for some. And straight lines in tattooing are even more of a skill, and this is an amateur tattoo. This tattoo is full of imperfections and inconsistencies. The rounded sides are not on the same side.

    If this were a heartagram or something like that before HIM "invented" it, the bottom point of a heart would be more pointed than this.
    totally agree. it also wouldn't have faded that much if it were a professional tattoo. if the guy is maximum age 30 then the tattoo couldn't be more than 10 - 12 years old. they don't fade like that if they're done by a pro.

  4. #34
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    Links to the faded tattoo, remember they're upside down

    https://identifyus.org/en/medias/full/17058
    https://identifyus.org/en/medias/full/17059

  5. #35
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    Another good point, masootz. Same with the other tattoo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beamie View Post
    Links to the faded tattoo, remember they're upside down
    So this is a tattoo that is upside down on this leg? On his upper thigh? In the front or back? If in the front, this makes me think he was possibly tattooing his own leg giving the direction and location.

    That goes along with it being unfinished, inconsistent, and faded. The type and quality of ink in a professional tattoo would not fade like this.

    It's possible he was dabbling in tattooing. This does not really narrow things down unfortunately as anyone can tattoo themselves with some basic materials with no paper trail in the non-professional setting.

    EDIT: NOT the leg. From Doe "Faint veining pattern over the right upper arm resembling a faint tattoo."

    It was on the upper arm so it's likely that he just knew someone who did home tattoos if it is indeed a tattoo.

    Are there any other theories on what it could be?
    Last edited by mae; 06-04-2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason: Correct info added

  6. #36
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    Just brainstorming here.

    Could be a cheap jailhouse tattoo as well.

    If he was right handed theres no way he tattooed his own shoulder.Its physically impossible.

    The lightness of the pigment certainly points to an amateur of some sort.

    Do they routinely do cheap tattoos at Grateful Dead Concerts?

    Also looking back at the photos I can see what you were talking about in regards to the overall sloppiness of the design.

    Still waiting to hear back from the band H.I.M as well.

    Stars are also associated with Wicca...could someone have started and then stopped either due to pain or lack of time and not put the circle around it?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by zapped View Post
    I dont really have a theory on this but this guy looks an AWFUL lot like a guy wearing a tye died shirt a friend and I picked up on Route 1 from Florida to Va when I was 21....That was 22 years ago so Im not sure the math is right.This guy was a HUGE Grateful Dead fan who told us he was travelling the country following them wherever they played.

    I remember him because he actually saved our lives.We were having trouble with our catalytic converter which I fixed before we picked him up at a service station in SC I believe. I had been driving 10 hours straight under very stressful conditions (30mph top speed going across the Savannah bridge in rush hour traffic) until I knocked a hole in the converter with a hammer.

    I was falling asleep behind the wheel and my friend didnt have a license. I actually dozed off and ran off the road a number of times before this guy talked me into letting him drive. I asked him if he was going to kill us in our sleep and he laughed and said no so I handed him the keys. I was THAT tired to trust a total stranger to drive.

    We dropped him off in Richmond Va about 6 hours from his goal of New York.
    So that would have been in 1991? If the age estimation is correct, that would have made him 17 or younger at that time. Possible?
    I can't complain but sometimes I still do. Life's been good to me so far. - Joe Walsh

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie4b1g View Post
    So that would have been in 1991? If the age estimation is correct, that would have made him 17 or younger at that time. Possible?
    Id say closer to 20-24. Its not uncommon for those estimated to be off by a couple of years either way.

  9. #39
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    Yes for sure.
    I can't complain but sometimes I still do. Life's been good to me so far. - Joe Walsh

  10. #40
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    Jun 2013
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    Hi there, I am a brand newbie to this site- this is my first post so hoping I am doing it right I have been trying to catch up on this case... I was at those Dead shows, and it seems to me that he wasn't a major Dead Head or he would be hitching a ride to the next shows not going the other direction. (As a side note, I have family somewhat near where the crash was...) Folks following the Dead around rarely bought corporate show shirts, like the one he was wearing. So I seriously doubt he was "On Dead Tour" ie following them from show to show. I am betting that he bought the tickets and wasn't miracled them- it could be a challenge to get a miracle ticket for cute young hippy girls, and even harder for guys, especially if they had on a shirt like his. He may have bartered for them, but since there were no drugs in his system, which probably rules out that he traded drugs for them, and he doesn't seem to be a tour kid with other things to sell and trade, he most likely paid cash. I am guessing he lost his stuff or it was stolen, there were some shady people around there. The star of David tattoo- there are so many reasons he could have that- there is even a gang associated with it- but I am guessing he did it himself.
    I am very curious about the reports that the driver stopped to see his dad and girlfriend- do they remember anything that may not seem like anything to them, but that could give us a clue? Did they meet?
    Oh, and yes there was plenty of mud at the shows.
    The fact that he had no dental issues, money to get the tix and shirt, and was heading south makes me wonder if he is from a conservative southern family that disagreed with his choices? I know my mom was afraid I was joining a cult when I went on tour lol! Maybe that is why the lack of claiming him?
    Another thought that doesn't go with the good teeth theory so much, is that when foster kids age out of the system, who follows them? Maybe he didn't have family....


  11. #41
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    I don't know, I think it's a slim chance anyone can completely, accurately theorize about Grateful doe.

    I've been looking at UID cases for almost ten years, and from watching here at WS when people have been identified or murderers have been caught, there were so many bizarre theories floating around the boards that a lot of it is wild speculation. Not all the time, but certainly many cases come to mind where posters were guessing things that were just way off. And I've done it too.

    I think he could be anyone. And here in Canada, it's very rare to have a man over the age of 25 who is not circumcised. It used to be done regularly before people realized it isn't medically necessary by any means.

    I wish this young man would be identified but I tend to think that whoever called the police station or morgue and inquired about him, was probably the guardian and didn't have the resources to claim him or didn't want to be identified for whatever reason.

  12. #42
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    Is it possible he was Amish? Maybe he was participating in Rumspringa.That would certainly explain the lack of money and why no family member has attempted to contact the police.

    The age seems right for this as well. I wonder if theres a way to show this photo in the Amish communities in Ohio and Pennsylvania?

    Still nothing from the band H.I.M

  13. #43
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    If the driver stopped to see his dad and girlfriend, those people would be able to identify an American accent. They would have said if he had an accent unfamiliar to them. It's probably a more reliable indicator than circumcision. I'm not sure what the population of the US was at that point in time, but it doesn't really narrow the field much to know if a male who died in the US was officially an American male. Just moo.

    My theory is that the family knows, but for whatever reason hasn't spoken out about it.

  14. #44
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    just to be clear - i believe the driver stopped at his father's house but no one was home. i think he was picking something up or dropping something off. i remember reading that le talked to neighbors to see if they saw our doe with him and no one saw anything. correct me if i'm wrong but i think that's how it went.

  15. #45
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    Apr 2013
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    This is my first post, but I've been a lurker on Websleuths for awhile. I've also been aware of this case for a few years too. Forgive me if these things have been said or I present this poorly or non-SOP!

    Here are a couple of my thoughts for random theories:

    I think the Anabaptist angle has some plausibility, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Amish/Hutterite/Mennonite, etc. He could have come from an Evangelical or Southern Baptist or Jewish upbringing (or a number of religious backgrounds) that are less accepting of certain lifestyles. Maybe he got into drugs for awhile or just experimented and his deeply southern baptist family disapproved and disowned him; maybe he left of his own accord because of their strict rules and they didn't think he was necessarily "missing", just transient/living a new life. The estimated age of 16-21 puts him at an average of 18 and a half, which is legally an adult, and the perfect age of someone who left home or was kicked out legally (no CPS/LE/school officials to notice his absence) and has been on his own for long enough to know how to get around hitchhiking, but not to have lost markers of his middle class upbringing (good dental hygiene, etc.).

    If it is true that a sister called the ME with specific non-public descriptions of him, then it's possible someone from his family heard about the Doe on the news and thought it might be him, but the rest of the family did not approve of them looking for him. Maybe she was too young (a minor) to collect the body, much less have the resources for a proper burial.

    He might even have been gay or had some other reason that a family of certain beliefs disapproved of him and wasn't looking for him (if it wasn't drugs, since his tox results came back clean). I realize the note from the Carolines looked somewhat flirtatious, so that would rule out being gay, but I think I read on here somewhere that the letter was found outside of the vehicle and not in his pocket as originally thought, and LE said it was a dead end.

    I also do not think that he was a deadhead in the typical sense. He might have loved the band as much as any other deadhead, but I don't think he was following the tour and was in with that crowd as a regular. I have never been into the GD, but as with most types of die hard fans, it is pretty unusual to buy a T-shirt from a tour/concert/show and wear it either to the band's concert or immediately after. With non pop music it is usually unfashionable to even buy the "corporate" shirt. If he was from a stricter upbringing, it would make sense that he didn't know those scene faux pas or didn't care because he wasn't part of the crowd. I also think if he was a deadhead, he's have gone North to the next show, which I believe was in PA?

    I definitely don't think HIM was popular here at that time (in reference to the possible heartagram or star tattoo), or even known really. He'd have to have really known about them very, very early, which IMO means he would have to have known about them from being in Finland at some point, which seems implausible. This was also not the age of huge internet use of social media. Livejournal would have been an early social media avenue, but I don't think that was even launched for a few years yet. And not to say that people can't be fans of multiple genres of music, but HIM and GD are not too similar. Based on those facts I don't think the tattoo was from HIM. Probably a poorly homemade star. Stars have always been popular tattoos (homemade or professional).

    I think the foster kid aged out scenario is also possible. He would have either entered the system later in childhood/teen years or had a "good" group home/foster parent situation to keep up with his dental health.

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