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  1. #1
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    Analyzing the area where Hailey was found

    Here's another look at the difference between Lake JB Thomas in October 2008 and November 2012. I noticed a reference marker on the Google Maps and have highlighted it with a red arrow. Compare the lake level in 2008 with late 2012. Those of us who are local know that the worst of the drought did not start until around 2010, so the lake would not have lost that much water between 2008 to 2010. The past two years have been so dry, that some lakes have dried up altogether, and many communities have been left wondering where they were going to get their water supply and have been on water restrictions.

    It is conceivable that SA dumped Hailey's body in the lake water, just at the edge of the lake. Someone mentioned her body floating to the top, but that only happens as the body releases gases that cause bloating. When decomposition sets in, those gases are expelled from the body, and the body sinks again. That's why lakes, ponds and rivers are dredged for bodies when someone is missing. Unfortunately, Lake JB Thomas was not searched thoroughly, and certainly not during the short time that Hailey's body would have resurfaced.

    It could be that Hailey's body resurfaced, or was only partially covered by water and/or mud, and when it became visible, it attracted wild animals who scattered her remains.

    Interestingly enough, Hailey's remains were found very close to where the Google reference point is shown on the map. We don't know the exact location of where she was found, but it was in that basic area. You can see how the water has receded from where Hailey would have been placed in Dec 2010 until now. When Hailey disappeared, we did not know we would have an extended drought during the next 28 months that continues to this day. Neither did her killer.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
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    South Carolina
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    Analyzing the area where Hailey was found

    Working off other folks map data, I came up with this. According to the Texas Wildlife Dept website, the lake was impounded in 1952. I located a historical topo of the lake area for 1951. (I used the Ira SW one in the list. The 1951 that was revised in 1975 shows the reservoir. As a side note, TX Wildlife Dept list the visibility of the lake at less than 1 ft.)

    Conservation pool level is 2,258 ft. On December 27, 2010, the pool level for the reservoir water was 2213 ft.

    In March 2013, the pool level was 2202 ft.

    I will try to find the time today to do an overlay by taking the historical topo, layering it on the aerials and make the topo somewhat transparent to show the depths of the lake bed. This would also show us another view of what area of the lake was exposed from in 2013 that was underwater in 2010 with elevation data. If someone else out there has the skills to do this, please, 'have at it', you won't be stepping on my toes.

    ETA: Please ignore the attached thumbnail. I grabbed the wrong image and attached it. The reservoir land is further west.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Ruby Sue; 04-28-2013 at 06:58 AM. Reason: need more coffee...

  3. #3
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    Oct 2011
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    South Carolina
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    Using ArcGIS Explorer Online, I did 2 overlays of the cove/inlet area that Cherokee pointed out on aerials provided by Oliveleaf in an earlier post as where Hailey was found.

    I used these layers: USA Topo Maps and World Imagery. There are a lot more available. If you are interested in it, using the ArcGIS Explorer Online is free and you can really zoom in, change the opacity of different layers etc. You can get a much better view of the area using the site than looking at the attachments to this post.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Ruby Sue; 04-28-2013 at 09:56 AM.

  4. #4
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    May 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Here's another look at the difference between Lake JB Thomas in October 2008 and November 2012. I noticed a reference marker on the Google Maps and have highlighted it with a red arrow. Compare the lake level in 2008 with late 2012. Those of us who are local know that the worst of the drought did not start until around 2010, so the lake would not have lost that much water between 2008 to 2010. The past two years have been so dry, that some lakes have dried up altogether, and many communities have been left wondering where they were going to get their water supply and have been on water restrictions.

    It is conceivable that SA dumped Hailey's body in the lake water, just at the edge of the lake. Someone mentioned her body floating to the top, but that only happens as the body releases gases that cause bloating. When decomposition sets in, those gases are expelled from the body, and the body sinks again. That's why lakes, ponds and rivers are dredged for bodies when someone is missing. Unfortunately, Lake JB Thomas was not searched thoroughly, and certainly not during the short time that Hailey's body would have resurfaced.

    It could be that Hailey's body resurfaced, or was only partially covered by water and/or mud, and when it became visible, it attracted wild animals who scattered her remains.

    Interestingly enough, Hailey's remains were found very close to where the Google reference point is shown on the map. We don't know the exact location of where she was found, but it was in that basic area. You can see how the water has receded from where Hailey would have been placed in Dec 2010 until now. When Hailey disappeared, we did not know we would have an extended drought during the next 28 months that continues to this day. Neither did her killer.
    Cherokee, what goes on at Lake JB Thomas? Do alot of people go there?
    What are the roads like in the area where Hailey’s remains were found?
    Do you think investigators will be able to find footprints and tire threads in the mud?
    Thank you.

  5. #5
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    Aug 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    Cherokee, what goes on at Lake JB Thomas? Do alot of people go there?
    What are the roads like in the area where Hailey’s remains were found?
    Do you think investigators will be able to find footprints and tire threads in the mud?
    Thank you.
    Hi Bluesky, before I answer your questions, I want to say to everyone that I did not start this thread! I had made this particular post in another thread and apparently, the mods decided to move it and start a thread with it ... which is fine ... but I didn't want other posters here to think I thought my post was worthy enough to start a whole different thread!

    1. Do alot of people go there?

    Not anymore. It used to be people would fish there a lot. The lake has dried up so much, the boat ramp doesn't even go into the water now. The latest report is the lake is only at 3% of capacity. That tells you something about how much it has dried up in the past few years.

    Here's a link that shows what the lake area used to look like and the location of picnic shelters, etc. You can compare it to the photos above, and you'll see how much water has been lost, even before 2008. Since 2010, the extreme drought has accelerated the water loss. You can orient yourself to the photo by seeing the "Bull Creek" finger on the north end of the lake hasn't existed for quite awhile. Then look at the southeast end where Hailey was found, and you'll see that area used to be covered by water at one time.

    http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat...s.phtml#pointa

    2. What are the roads like in the area where Hailey’s remains were found?

    They are all dirt roads.

    3. Do you think investigators will be able to find footprints and tire threads in the mud?

    I don't know for sure, but my first thought is that they won't. It has been extremely dry and dusty for so long, it will be hard to find any evidence on those roads. I believe the perp parked in that area, then carried Hailey and put her in at the edge of the water or half-buried her in the mud. Then, the water receded and her remains were exposed. The way her remains were described as being scattered and not a complete skeleton leads me to believe a wild animal, probably a coyote, could have pulled Hailey's body away from where the edge of the lake area was in 2010.

    The drought has been hard on local wildlife as well. They are desperate for water, and have even come into towns looking for it. We see more coyotes, foxes, etc. inside city limits. IMHO, that's probably another reason Hailey's remains were found away from where the lake edge is now.

    It makes no sense for the perp to drive all the way to Lake JB Thomas and not try to hide her in the water or the mud. He could have dumped her body anywhere LESS VISIBLE on an oil lease or ranch land. In 2010, people were still going out to the lake to fish. The perp was counting on the water and mud to destroy evidence on Hailey's body that a "dry" dumping of her body would have retained. It's also obvious the perp KNEW about Lake JB Thomas because they purposefully removed her body from Colorado City and drove north to that specific place. This wasn't a random dumping of a body, as is done by a transient killer.

    Here is a photo that shows the proximity of the lake edge (in March 2013) to where Hailey's scattered remains were found. Remember, this area used to be under water or was a mud flat several years ago. You can see the current mud/water of the lake edge just above the inset photo of the man who is searching. With many thanks to "crankycrankerson" -

    http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cra...ml?sort=6&o=42
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #6
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    Here is another photo that shows the same area from the opposite direction. You can see the current lake edge/mud flat area in the upper left hand corner behind the KTXS logo.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
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    Cherokee have you visited this thread which is downstairs in our members only section? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...25084&page=138
    Those posting there, never gave up on finding Hailey and worked tirelessly on her behalf.
    You are the anchor to my soul, you won't let go ...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Cherokee have you visited this thread which is downstairs in our members only section? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...25084&page=138
    Those posting there, never gave up on finding Hailey and worked tirelessly on her behalf.
    No, I haven't. Thanks for that link. I so much appreciate everyone who searched for Hailey and who worked tirelessly on her behalf. Because of physical limitations, I was unable to search for Hailey in person. I do not live in Colorado City or Snyder, but in the area of west Texas where they are located.

    When Hailey first went missing, I read everything I could find here, but I mostly just lurked. We'd see reports on our local news, and I knew it would just be a matter of time before she was found, probably within a 50 mile radius of Colorado City and Snyder.

    I know I could be wrong about the perp trying to put Hailey's body in the water/mud of Lake JB Thomas, but I'm just offering my opinion based on knowledge of the area and the extreme drought.

    LE often "muddies" what they report publically because they know the perp knows facts only detailed by the crime scene. That's why they don't release all the information they have collected. They keep some info close to their chests, which is frustrating for us, but necessary for a possible conviction.

    It is true that where Hailey was found was not covered by water, nor had it recently be covered by water. However, she was found close enough to the lake edge that I believe she may have originally been placed there in 2010. As I said before, where Hailey was found was probably not where the perp put her body. Because her remains were scattered, and LE took four days to scour the area where she was found, that is evidence of the work of wild animals who may have dragged her from the water's edge up to where they could do their work. It's not a pretty image, and not one I like to think about, but it is often reality when a body is left in open country.

  9. #9
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    Glad you came out of lurkdom, your efforts in this thread are also appreciated.

    What you surmise about the edge of the lake (soft areas in which to dig) make sense. Just wish we knew more about how the remains appeared. Pointhunter (the man who discovered Hailey) just joined the forum today. Hopefully he will chime in and be able to answer questions for you.
    You are the anchor to my soul, you won't let go ...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knox View Post
    Glad you came out of lurkdom, your efforts in this thread are also appreciated.

    What you surmise about the edge of the lake (soft areas in which to dig) make sense. Just wish we knew more about how the remains appeared. Pointhunter (the man who discovered Hailey) just joined the forum today. Hopefully he will chime in and be able to answer questions for you.
    Thank you, Knox. I really do believe the perp tried to bury/hide/dispose of Hailey's body at the edge of the lake. If he didn't actually put her in the water, then the soft dirt of the mud flat next to the water would have been the easiest place to bury the body. The ground out here in west Texas is HARD. Even when we've had rain, it can be hard to dig farther down than an inch or two, so in a drought, it's really difficult to dig deep enough to hide a body. Our topsoil is not the soft loam of back east. It's mostly clay and sand.

    I honestly believe Hailey's remains "reappeared" because she was placed in a shallow water or mud grave that was worn away by the drought, and her body was found by wild animals who dragged it away from the original location and her remains were scattered in the area where Mr. Lloyd walked.

    I'm am so glad to hear Mr. Lloyd (Pinpointer) has joined WS! That is awesome news! I am anxious to hear what he has to say about where he found Hailey.


  11. #11
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    Just for clarification, his username is pointhunter, not pinpointer. He hunts for arrowheads! Thanks for all your info Cherokee. You have good insight I think.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nannymo View Post
    Just for clarification, his username is pointhunter, not pinpointer. He hunts for arrowheads! Thanks for all your info Cherokee. You have good insight I think.
    You're welcome, nannymo, and I'm sorry I got his hat mixed up. That's what comes from trying to do too many things at once.

    I hope Pointhunter will join us on this thread.
    Last edited by Cherokee; 04-28-2013 at 08:01 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Hi Bluesky, before I answer your questions, I want to say to everyone that I did not start this thread! I had made this particular post in another thread and apparently, the mods decided to move it and start a thread with it ... which is fine ... but I didn't want other posters here to think I thought my post was worthy enough to start a whole different thread!

    1. Do alot of people go there?

    Not anymore. It used to be people would fish there a lot. The lake has dried up so much, the boat ramp doesn't even go into the water now. The latest report is the lake is only at 3% of capacity. That tells you something about how much it has dried up in the past few years.
    <snipped to save space>

    Thank you Cherokee. In 2010 people were still fishing at Lake JB Thomas so in your opinion, would the person who took Hailey there go during the night to avoid being seen?

    Do you think the person who took Hailey there used a shovel or anything?

  14. #14
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    Oct 2008
    Location
    LA-Lower Alabama
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    1,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
    Hi Bluesky, before I answer your questions, I want to say to everyone that I did not start this thread! I had made this particular post in another thread and apparently, the mods decided to move it and start a thread with it ... which is fine ... but I didn't want other posters here to think I thought my post was worthy enough to start a whole different thread!

    1. Do alot of people go there?

    Not anymore. It used to be people would fish there a lot. The lake has dried up so much, the boat ramp doesn't even go into the water now. The latest report is the lake is only at 3% of capacity. That tells you something about how much it has dried up in the past few years.

    Here's a link that shows what the lake area used to look like and the location of picnic shelters, etc. You can compare it to the photos above, and you'll see how much water has been lost, even before 2008. Since 2010, the extreme drought has accelerated the water loss. You can orient yourself to the photo by seeing the "Bull Creek" finger on the north end of the lake hasn't existed for quite awhile. Then look at the southeast end where Hailey was found, and you'll see that area used to be covered by water at one time.

    http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat...s.phtml#pointa

    2. What are the roads like in the area where Hailey’s remains were found?

    They are all dirt roads.

    3. Do you think investigators will be able to find footprints and tire threads in the mud?

    I don't know for sure, but my first thought is that they won't. It has been extremely dry and dusty for so long, it will be hard to find any evidence on those roads. I believe the perp parked in that area, then carried Hailey and put her in at the edge of the water or half-buried her in the mud. Then, the water receded and her remains were exposed. The way her remains were described as being scattered and not a complete skeleton leads me to believe a wild animal, probably a coyote, could have pulled Hailey's body away from where the edge of the lake area was in 2010.

    The drought has been hard on local wildlife as well. They are desperate for water, and have even come into towns looking for it. We see more coyotes, foxes, etc. inside city limits. IMHO, that's probably another reason Hailey's remains were found away from where the lake edge is now.

    It makes no sense for the perp to drive all the way to Lake JB Thomas and not try to hide her in the water or the mud. He could have dumped her body anywhere LESS VISIBLE on an oil lease or ranch land. In 2010, people were still going out to the lake to fish. The perp was counting on the water and mud to destroy evidence on Hailey's body that a "dry" dumping of her body would have retained. It's also obvious the perp KNEW about Lake JB Thomas because they purposefully removed her body from Colorado City and drove north to that specific place. This wasn't a random dumping of a body, as is done by a transient killer.

    Here is a photo that shows the proximity of the lake edge (in March 2013) to where Hailey's scattered remains were found. Remember, this area used to be under water or was a mud flat several years ago. You can see the current mud/water of the lake edge just above the inset photo of the man who is searching. With many thanks to "crankycrankerson" -

    http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cra...ml?sort=6&o=42
    Are the cars in the photo when LE was searching?
    The question I have since Google marks the dirt ending ending maybe where the cars are and it seems the road continues to the lake...

    From where the cars are located going north is the dirt road usable...can a car go there or would you need a truck etc...it is sandy and need a 4 x 4?


    But you would need local knowledge about the lake and maybe the road IMO
    Trying to come to an informed decision using incomplete data...... is well "guessing"

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesky#1 View Post
    <snipped to save space>

    Thank you Cherokee. In 2010 people were still fishing at Lake JB Thomas so in your opinion, would the person who took Hailey there go during the night to avoid being seen?

    Do you think the person who took Hailey there used a shovel or anything?
    IMHO, I seriously doubt if many people would have been fishing at the lake in the cold weather, but some die-hards might have been there. The area around the lake is fairly deserted as you can see on the map.

    The closest I could find for the time of sunrise and sunset on December 27, 2010 for Colorado City/Lake JB Thomas was Abilene, TX, which is about an hour NE up I-20.

    http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...&afl=-11&day=1

    Dec 27, 2010 7:39 AM to 5:41 PM

    Since Lake JB Thomas is a little west of Abilene, we can probably add a few minutes to that time. However, dusk would have fallen between the time that a certain POI had time that is unaccounted for - between 3 and 6:15 p.m. At 5:30 p.m., it would have been very close to dark, and most people would not have been able to see anything in detail at a distance without extra lighting.

    It is conceivable, and within the available timeframe, that the POI killed Hailey, took her to Lake JB Thomas and then drove to Snyder to pick up Billie from work.

    As for your second question, the POI could possibly have used a shovel, but if he dumped Hailey's remains at the water's edge or buried her in the shallow mud, it wouldn't have taken much digging. She was just a little mite.

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