Common Ground

I thought it might be interesting to start a thread where all of us interested in this case could discuss areas we are all in agreement with, this is not really a place to debate evidence, but rather to come to a consensus on some common ground. There are so many people here with a wealth of knowledge, it might be interesting for us to come together on a few things, and discuss them.

So basically the idea is to get a list of things we all agree on, then use that list to take a bit of a fresh look at things without pinning those items on a specific suspect, or attach a theory to them.

Interesting idea for a thread. I'll have to think about it, but the first things that spring to mind are Vicki Hutchinson, and Dale Griffis/the Satanism stuff. I doubt many people on either side regard Hutchinson or Griffis as credible witnesses to anything, and apart from a small minority of rather odd conspiracy theorists, I don't know any non who still believes this was a Satanic ritual murder.

Yep, I agree with that for sure, shall we just like posts we agree with, then if something gets posted someone doesn't agree with pipe up? Anyway totally agree with the so called Satanic Ritual BS .. should never have been brought in.

Those were the times they lived in I suppose, Satanic Panic was in full flow in the early 90s.

shall we just like posts we agree with, then if something gets posted someone doesn't agree with pipe up?

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Good idea.

Another one I just thought of - any supporter knowledgeable enough to be debating the wm3 here would surely know enough to see that Damien wasn't just targeted for black t shirts and heavy metal music. His problems ran alot deeper than that.

LOL same here with the Satanic Panic, the priest at the church I went to actually tried to recruit some members of our youth group to 'look into' student goings on at school to see if there were any satanists (OMG) he also thought AC/DC was a sign .. that was the '80s here, so it wasn't just the USA.

I have a question ..

Are all the supporters in agreement that the boys were murdered in the woods, or is there debate about that?

Are all the supporters in agreement that the boys were murdered in the woods, or is there debate about that?

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There is considerable debate about that, and a further debate about where in the woods.

I like the idea of trying to see what exactly is agreed upon by all. I'll have to give it some thought because right now the only things I can think of are the most basic of information such as the 3 boys were murdered, the 3 boys were tied up, the 3 boys were found in the ditch.

I would be curious in knowing what, if anything, is agreed upon as far as the WM3's alibi witnesses. For example, for those that believe in guilt, do they believe the statements concerning cutting the grass but nothing after that? Is there a point in time that everyone is in agreement as to what the invididuals were doing that day and at what point in time do opinions start to differ.

I hope that we all agree that the most important thing is to assure that justice is served. Too often, it seems to me that that concept gets lost in the fray. If we agree that justice is the most important thing, could someone please explain how a new trial, with all evidence being presented, wouldn't further that goal? It's probably a moot point now, but I've never heard a reasonable argument for not doing so.

Cappuccino said:

I don't know any non who still believes this was a Satanic ritual murder.

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I don't believe the prosecution ever suggested that the murders were commuted in the course of any ritual, as I've yet to find anyone able to actually quote the prosecution doing as much and have searched the transcripts myself to no avail.

Cappuccino said:

Another one I just thought of - any supporter knowledgeable enough to be debating the wm3 here would surely know enough to see that Damien wasn't just targeted for black t shirts and heavy metal music. His problems ran alot deeper than that.

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I've seen a lot of attempts to minimize Echols psychological problems in my time here. One [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9066054&postcount=55"]even went so suggest[/ame] Echols was simply going through "a little purple hair rebellion" and go on to argue as if anyone who insists the three are guilty simply "dont like or approve of that type of clothing, hairstyle, attitude etc.", and that got five thanks while nobody took issue with the argument other than me.

reedus23 said:

For example, for those that believe in guilt, do they believe the statements concerning cutting the grass but nothing after that?

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Which statements exactly? The 5/9 report with Baldwin, Echols, and Teer saying that after cutting the grass they were picked up by Echols' father at laundromat at 6? Or the 5/10 report with Echols saying it was his mother who him picked Teer and him up at the laundromat, but not Baldwin, and Teer was driven home in time for Echols to to get to the Sanders by around 3. Or the 9/10 report with Teer putting Kennith Watkins at the grass cutting along with her, Baldwin, Echols, and her and Echols not making it to the laundromat until "about dark or just before it got dark" (around 7:45)? Or the 6/4 interview with Gail and Terry Grinnell, Baldwin's parents, in which they say Baldwin mowed his uncle's lawn from around 4:30 to 6 or 6:30, and was accompanied by Echols and Watkins but not Teer? Or perhaps the 6/14 statement from Hubert Bartoush, Baldwin's uncle, which also has Baldwin alone mowing the lawn from 4:30 to 6:30, with no mention of Echols, Teer, or Watkins? Surely you aren't referring to the 9/16 interview with Watkins where he said the grass cutting didn't take place until the weekend after the murders, but I'm including it for the sake of completeness.

Hi Kyleb .. this is really just a place to list things we all agree on .. debates can be taken off this thread onto relevant ones .. really determined that we don't get into the nitty gritty here .. This is a thread to find common ground ..

Do we all agree that LE should have recorded all witness interviews from the beginning, ESPECIALLY the first one with Jessie?

I don't agree, as when they first started interviewing Misskelley they had no reason to believe he knew anything about the murders, at least no more than anyone else Echols associated with other than William Wilford Jones who they did get on tape. Granted, it would be nice to have recordings, video preferably, of Misskelley from the first moment police spoke to them, and all the hundreds of other people spoke to for that matter. If I could wish into existence one recording it wouldn't be of Misskelley though, but rather Echols' 5/10 interview personally. One can't rightly expect a police department to recorded everything whether they know if it will prove useful or not though, particularly in a rather impoverished town, and back in the days of cassettes at that.

As for my bit about the grass cutting, I was just making a point about how vague Reedus' question was. I agree that discussion of the alibi claims deserves it's own thread, at least if anyone thinks they can manage to come up with a reasonably coherent alibi out of the various witnesses for the convicted.

Mrs G Norris said:

Do we all agree that LE should have recorded all witness interviews from the beginning, ESPECIALLY the first one with Jessie?

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It would have certainly been beneficial. I would like to see a National law requiring video taping of all interrogations - from beginning to end.

I'd prefer our government respect the Fourth Amendment far more than they currently do, including only recording any conversations either with expressed consent of those to be recorded or after demonstrating probable cause to a grand jury to do otherwise.

kyleb said:

I'd prefer our government respect the Fourth Amendment far more than they currently do, including only recording any conversations either with expressed consent of those to be recorded or after demonstrating probable cause to a grand jury to do otherwise.

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Although I agree with your basic premise, the interrogation of a suspect, when recorded, is recorded with full disclosure to the person being recorded. IMO, it's not the same thing as the government (or anyone) secretly recording my phone conversations or reading my emails. IIRC, that is illegal - and should be!

Here’s something we can all agree upon. The records from Damien’s mental health evaluations show that Damien Echols is a very mentally disturbed person.

[Mother] was most concerned about son “not learning to deal with anger and rages”. [Mother] mentioned her belief that son may be responding to outside stimulation. Voiced fear “son may be crazy.”

"He is quite paranoid.” Elsewhere a nurse wrote, “Verbalized concern that there is surveillance cameras behind his mirror & under his desk in his rm — cautioned peer that staff are constantly watching them

Approx. three hours after Damien arrived, he was sitting in rec. area with several other residents. One of the boys had scraped his arm a little, and it was bleeding some. Without warning, Damien grabbed the arm that was bleeding, and began to suck the blood from it. The boys all stated he had been saying he had not taken his medication the night before, and he was about to “go off on them”. Damien was asked why he did this, and he stated “I don’t know.” He also told staff he had threatened to kill his father and eat him.

Although frequently unsuccessful in these aims, this teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others.

Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. The spirit was put inside him last year. He indicates that a month ago the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband. When questioned about how he feels with this spirit or what the difference is, Damien is able to relate that he feels stronger and more powerful with this spirit. He has not seen the spirit but does hear the spirit. In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits.

Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He states “it makes me feel like a God”. Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength. He remembers doing this as far back as age 10.

[Patient] has made threats to kill himself by hanging w bed sheet or tying socks together & told grandmother today that he would cut his mother’s throat.

The patient appeared to be sniffing the air around him as if he were responding to an external stimulus. When he was questioned as to what he was doing, the patient gave an inappropriate smile and was unwilling to discuss what he was doing. Upon several occasions, the patient also cut his eyes in one direction or the other as if he were hearing or thinking of something before he spoke.

The patient denies suicidal or homicidal ideation at this time, however, in talking with family members, they state that he made it quite clear that he had thoughts of harming other people

Mr. Echols has been evaluated on three separate occasions by three different psychologists, each of whom administered a battery of tests. A prominent feature of each evaluation was the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI), which was administered on June 8, 1992; September 2, 1992; and February 20, 1994. The independent test results were quite consistent; all revealed valid profiles and strong indications of depression, mania, severe anxiety, delusions and psychosis.
Test results for the June 8, 1992, MMPI reflected elevations on scores of psychotic thinking, including hallucinations, paranoid ideation, and delusions, as well as severe anxiety and other related emotional disturbances. The suggested diagnoses were schizophrenia, disorganized type; and bipolar disorder, manic. Individual responses on this test revealed that Mr. Echols was afraid of losing his mind, had bizarre thoughts, and had very peculiar experiences. Three months later, on September 2, 1992, a second MMPI was administered. The test results very closely paralleled the findings of the earlier MMPI. Shortly before Mr. Echols’ trial began in 1994, he was administered the MMPI a third time for the purpose of identifying mitigating evidence. Like the other two, this MMPI revealed psychotic thought processes consistent with schizophrenia.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/gwoods.html

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

I think we can all agree that WMP should have interviewed all the parents.

Pensfan said:

Here’s something we can all agree upon. The records from Damien’s mental health evaluations show that Damien Echols is a very mentally disturbed person.

[Mother] was most concerned about son “not learning to deal with anger and rages”. [Mother] mentioned her belief that son may be responding to outside stimulation. Voiced fear “son may be crazy.”

"He is quite paranoid.” Elsewhere a nurse wrote, “Verbalized concern that there is surveillance cameras behind his mirror & under his desk in his rm — cautioned peer that staff are constantly watching them

Approx. three hours after Damien arrived, he was sitting in rec. area with several other residents. One of the boys had scraped his arm a little, and it was bleeding some. Without warning, Damien grabbed the arm that was bleeding, and began to suck the blood from it. The boys all stated he had been saying he had not taken his medication the night before, and he was about to “go off on them”. Damien was asked why he did this, and he stated “I don’t know.” He also told staff he had threatened to kill his father and eat him.

Although frequently unsuccessful in these aims, this teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others.

Damien relates that a spirit is now living with him. The spirit was put inside him last year. He indicates that a month ago the spirit decided to become part of him and he to become part of the spirit. This is reportedly a spirit of a woman who was killed by her husband. When questioned about how he feels with this spirit or what the difference is, Damien is able to relate that he feels stronger and more powerful with this spirit. He has not seen the spirit but does hear the spirit. In addition, he also reports conversations with demons and other spirits.

Damien explained that he obtains his power by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He states “it makes me feel like a God”. Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength. He remembers doing this as far back as age 10.

[Patient] has made threats to kill himself by hanging w bed sheet or tying socks together & told grandmother today that he would cut his mother’s throat.

The patient appeared to be sniffing the air around him as if he were responding to an external stimulus. When he was questioned as to what he was doing, the patient gave an inappropriate smile and was unwilling to discuss what he was doing. Upon several occasions, the patient also cut his eyes in one direction or the other as if he were hearing or thinking of something before he spoke.

The patient denies suicidal or homicidal ideation at this time, however, in talking with family members, they state that he made it quite clear that he had thoughts of harming other people

Mr. Echols has been evaluated on three separate occasions by three different psychologists, each of whom administered a battery of tests. A prominent feature of each evaluation was the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI), which was administered on June 8, 1992; September 2, 1992; and February 20, 1994. The independent test results were quite consistent; all revealed valid profiles and strong indications of depression, mania, severe anxiety, delusions and psychosis.
Test results for the June 8, 1992, MMPI reflected elevations on scores of psychotic thinking, including hallucinations, paranoid ideation, and delusions, as well as severe anxiety and other related emotional disturbances. The suggested diagnoses were schizophrenia, disorganized type; and bipolar disorder, manic. Individual responses on this test revealed that Mr. Echols was afraid of losing his mind, had bizarre thoughts, and had very peculiar experiences. Three months later, on September 2, 1992, a second MMPI was administered. The test results very closely paralleled the findings of the earlier MMPI. Shortly before Mr. Echols’ trial began in 1994, he was administered the MMPI a third time for the purpose of identifying mitigating evidence. Like the other two, this MMPI revealed psychotic thought processes consistent with schizophrenia.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/gwoods.html

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

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Although I admit to not reading the entirety of exhibited 500, would somebody that is so mentally disturbed as the previous quote would suggest be able to endure 18 years on death row without any psychiatric care or treatment and subsequently return to normal life and evidently show no noticeable signs of such? or did he just snap out of it?

iluvmua said:

I think we can all agree that WMP should have interviewed all the parents.

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This I agree with 100%.

gheckso said:

Although I admit to not reading the entirety of exhibited 500, would somebody that is so mentally disturbed as the previous quote would suggest be able to endure 18 years on death row without any psychiatric care or treatment and subsequently return to normal life and evidently show no noticeable signs of such? or did he just snap out of it?

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Good question, I have created a thread to discuss it here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9557987#post9557987"]Damien Echols Psychiatric History & Treatment - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame] will bring over some posts ..