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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by walklikeacat View Post
    Did you ever read about what happen in Woodlands, Singapore in May, 2011? A man dragged and lifted his girlfriend from the elevator, up on the roof through a locked and alarmed door. Up through the ladders and on the top of the water tank, opened the latch and lowered her into the tank.

    So it sure can be done. I am not convinced that this was an accident, it is rather difficult to accidentally fall into a 14 inch hole.
    I had not heard of that! Gosh.

    We have to take into consideration that a person high on certain drugs or even just adrenaline can become very strong.


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  2. #32
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    Hope these don't blow the margins.

    The initial email was received around 9.30 pm Australian eastern time, which is something like 4.30 am la time.



    And here is the second email:




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    Last edited by LittleWing; 06-21-2013 at 08:29 AM.

  3. #33
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    I'd be curious to know how they would determine "Accidental" versus "Suicide." One reason I always thought this could not be accidental is because of the size of the opening on the water tank. If you start to fall into a small opening, your reflexes would automatically cause your arms to move away from your side. If you still fell in, the sides of your arms would be seriously bruised. Unless that bruising could not be seen after a while in the water tank, I would be reluctant to call this an accident without that kind of evidence. But, who knows? I'm not privy to all the information, so maybe the coroner's ruling is correct.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueShoe View Post
    I'd be curious to know how they would determine "Accidental" versus "Suicide." One reason I always thought this could not be accidental is because of the size of the opening on the water tank. If you start to fall into a small opening, your reflexes would automatically cause your arms to move away from your side. If you still fell in, the sides of your arms would be seriously bruised. Unless that bruising could not be seen after a while in the water tank, I would be reluctant to call this an accident without that kind of evidence. But, who knows? I'm not privy to all the information, so maybe the coroner's ruling is correct.
    I agree.

    But Elisa did not have to have fallen in in order to wind up drowning accidentally. She could have gotten in purposefully for whatever reason and simply was unable to get out.


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueShoe View Post
    I'd be curious to know how they would determine "Accidental" versus "Suicide." One reason I always thought this could not be accidental is because of the size of the opening on the water tank. If you start to fall into a small opening, your reflexes would automatically cause your arms to move away from your side. If you still fell in, the sides of your arms would be seriously bruised. Unless that bruising could not be seen after a while in the water tank, I would be reluctant to call this an accident without that kind of evidence. But, who knows? I'm not privy to all the information, so maybe the coroner's ruling is correct.
    Yes, I am thinking the same in describing what you actually do with your body when you about to fall. That if I her reflexes were working normally. And how did she get up there at that heights? There are usually no ladders available, if you donīt make it from the roof of the store room...which would be with great danger. I think it will be much more to say about this case and I will need an explanation how she did get up there.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by walklikeacat View Post
    Did you ever read about what happen in Woodlands, Singapore in May, 2011? A man dragged and lifted his girlfriend from the elevator, up on the roof through a locked and alarmed door. Up through the ladders and on the top of the water tank, opened the latch and lowered her into the tank.

    So it sure can be done. I am not convinced that this was an accident, it is rather difficult to accidentally fall into a 14 inch hole.
    Wow I hadn't heard that story. I assume that the woman must have had marks or bruises on her body after that, depending on whether she was dead or not.

    Personally, I do not think she accidentally fell into the tank. I've always suspected she crawled in, and not necessarily because she was running from a real or imagined person/thing. It's impossible for us to be inside her (most likely deluded) mind, but there are countless reasons she could have gotten in.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by findinganatta View Post
    Who knows why they didn't release the drowning info earlier? Personally, I don't see what that has to do with the conclusion. I do know that, according to the FBI website, determining a drowning is actually quite simple, even with a body that has significantly decomposed. So I'm confident they determined it earlier, and simply didn't release it until now for whatever reasons.

    .
    I think the inital release of cause of death undetermined and deffered to toxicology report is significant. As you said yourself it is fairly easity to diagnose drowning. yes, I know there are exceptions, but for the most part the evidence of drowing in ones body is pretty easy to determine at autopsy. Thus, from the undetermined cause of death released from the initial autopsy I have to ask was drowning an autopsy finding or a conclusion after the fact? I can think of no reasons not have simply released cause of death drowning, manner of death undetermined pending toxicology results. It may seem like nit picking words but for some reason it does not sit will with me. Maybe because the whole picture of Ms. Lam's death is so difficult to digest. I absolutly believe this could have been an accident if she was in a psychosis. However, I think other scenerious are much more probable. I have to ask if we did not have the elevator footage would we even consider this death as accidental?

    mjak

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueShoe View Post
    I'd be curious to know how they would determine "Accidental" versus "Suicide." One reason I always thought this could not be accidental is because of the size of the opening on the water tank. If you start to fall into a small opening, your reflexes would automatically cause your arms to move away from your side. If you still fell in, the sides of your arms would be seriously bruised. Unless that bruising could not be seen after a while in the water tank, I would be reluctant to call this an accident without that kind of evidence. But, who knows? I'm not privy to all the information, so maybe the coroner's ruling is correct.
    I do not think of "accidental" as meaning she didn't crawl inside on purpose... I just think it means she didn't crawl inside with the intention of dying. Just like some people drown in pools of 'misadventure' or 'accidental' death, yet they didn't fall into the pool, something just happened while they were in there that caused drowning. In this case, I know bipolar psychosis (and even 'regular,' non-psychotic bipolar symptoms) can cause people to think they have powers/abilities that they don't have, and even to feel invincible. So she may have thought she could pull herself back out. Or maybe she didn't actually think that far ahead because she was in a mentally ill state (that could even happen to a common drunk person). Or maybe she held onto the rim thinking she could hang down into the water, but then couldn't pull herself back up and had to drop into the water eventually. Etc, etc, there are a number of distinct and realistic possibilities. People die of really bad judgement everyday, even many people who have no mental illness at all.

    That's my take on how an 'accidental' situation would have happened in this case I don't think that she fell in. That just doesn't fit with the facts, in my opinion.

  9. #39
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    - Hopefully any building with a water tank will now learn from this sad story....and keep all tanks locked.

    - a little common sense could have prevented this tragedy.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjak View Post
    I think the inital release of cause of death undetermined and deffered to toxicology report is significant. As you said yourself it is fairly easity to diagnose drowning. yes, I know there are exceptions, but for the most part the evidence of drowing in ones body is pretty easy to determine at autopsy. Thus, from the undetermined cause of death released from the initial autopsy I have to ask was drowning an autopsy finding or a conclusion after the fact? I can think of no reasons not have simply released cause of death drowning, manner of death undetermined pending toxicology results. It may seem like nit picking words but for some reason it does not sit will with me. Maybe because the whole picture of Ms. Lam's death is so difficult to digest. I absolutly believe this could have been an accident if she was in a psychosis. However, I think other scenerious are much more probable. I have to ask if we did not have the elevator footage would we even consider this death as accidental?

    mjak
    I guess I interpreted the first autopsy findings differently than you did. I thought the inconclusive part were the details associated with how she drowned, not whether or not she did drown. Which would have lead the coroner to rule it inconclusive, because his/her job was to determine more than just whether or not she drowned.

    But if you're right, and they couldn't even determine if she died by drowning or not, that is a little different. I suppose it's possible that the level of decomposition combined with the fact that it's fresh drinking water could affect that. The reason I say the fresh water part is because I know one of the big markers of drowning is bacteria from the water being found in the throat and lungs, but that kind of evidence may not be present in fresh drinking water. But I would think chemicals like chlorine would be present in her lungs, but who knows.


  11. #41
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    When I first saw the video I thought it was a very sad-showing a woman in mental distress. However, some people here argued that they didn't believe she was bipolar and some were even offended that the medical professionals who remarked here stated that it looked like she was presenting from what they knew as bi-polar. That usually was some of the ones stating they thought it was foul play. I hope in death she is at peace.
    No regrets! Mistakes are just lessons I needed to learn!

  12. #42
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    Well Im bipolar so I hope I'm never murdered because then people might think oh well pageantmom is off her meds.
    Anyway.
    I am so surprised at the findings. I dont know. I dont think I will ever believe this death was accidental. Or suicide. No matter what they say I still think she was murdered. MOO.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageantmom View Post
    Well Im bipolar so I hope I'm never murdered because then people might think oh well pageantmom is off her meds.
    snipped.
    But it didn't happen that way. They didn't just assume died on accident because she bipolar. They did a forensic investigation, questioned everyone in the hotel, brought a lot of public attention to the investigation, did multiple autopsies, toxicology test, etc... they investigated this for much longer than the average death. And after seeing everything, they came to the conclusion that it was an accidental death. The fact that she was bipolar simply helps explain the 'why' of what happened.

    They also undoubtedly did a lot of things we aren't aware of, like search her computer, phone, belongings, question her friends and family, etc.

  14. #44
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    She didn't run out of medicine because the police found her medicine and she still had plenty. I don't think she stopped taking it either because it all showed up in her tox screen.

    If missing ONE dose can make someone cocobananas then o.k. I wasn't standing over her watching her take her medicine. But, to show in her tox screen with there barely being any blood in her body (fresh water drowning effect) then surely she was taking it pretty regularly.

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