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  1. #1
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    the whites

    I just read Kolar's book after reading here it was on kindle. It made me wonder if there is any one good resource that addresses the White's involvement from go to woe? I really don't know much about all that but it seemed like maybe they were one of the only personal advocates for JonBenet.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozazure View Post
    I just read Kolar's book after reading here it was on kindle. It made me wonder if there is any one good resource that addresses the White's involvement from go to woe? I really don't know much about all that but it seemed like maybe they were one of the only personal advocates for JonBenet.
    I think it is safe to say that FW became suspicious fairly soon after arriving at the Rs that morning. He was the first to look IN the WC that morning (Officer French- the first LE on the scene- couldn't figure out how to open the door). FW saw nothing- unable to find the oddly placed wall switch for the WC lights. Later it was determined that there should have been enough ambient light from the hallway to see JB in that white blanket. Later, when FW followed JR into the room, she was right there near the doorway. (I believe JR moved her body closer to the door during the time he was "missing" from Det. Arndt's sight).
    FW was there to observe the Rs that morning and I believe his suspicions grew as he began to sort things out in his mind. The R's refusal to cooperate with police confused and angered him and a bitter fight resulted. The friendship was severed at that point. As soon as JR began to realize that FW suspected him (of at least a coverup) and suspected the Rs KNEW what happened, JR began to make veiled (and not so veiled) accusations against FW and PW. The intent was CLEAR that JR and his lawyers would actively pursue legal action against FW should he continue down that road, as well as naming him as a possible perp to LE. FW backed off, and to this day has remained silent. It is unknown how much of his suspicions were voiced to police or whether he will ever come forward with more information.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  3. #3
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    the fact that FW was "visited" by the Ramsey team so early after the murder says a lot....they were afraid of what he had witnessed,wanted to know what he knows...it's not like they wanted to ask him about an intruder....JR says it himself in his depo,the team wasn't hired to look for the killer,they were hired to prepare a defence....it's obvious then why they were afraid of what FW has to say
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  4. #4
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    I hadn't really thought about this, but the fact that FW didn't see JonBenet...are we suggesting that she had been "hidden" out of the way to dispose of elsewhere later?

    Or simply hidden out of the way like how you push something away in an attempt to distance yourself from it without any real thought of what to do after.

    I'm thinking like how you push your dinner away when you've had enough, but without thinking "well, I'll have to take this to the kitchen later" or "someone take this away, I don't want to look at another mouthful".

    ??

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderllama View Post
    I hadn't really thought about this, but the fact that FW didn't see JonBenet...are we suggesting that she had been "hidden" out of the way to dispose of elsewhere later?

    Or simply hidden out of the way like how you push something away in an attempt to distance yourself from it without any real thought of what to do after.

    I'm thinking like how you push your dinner away when you've had enough, but without thinking "well, I'll have to take this to the kitchen later" or "someone take this away, I don't want to look at another mouthful".

    ??

    Hmmm. Interesting. I always figured if the body had been moved it had originally been some other place -other than the WC.

    If JR is going to decide "now is the time to find her" and he knows she's in the WC, he doesn't really need her closer to the door. And of course, JR knows where the light switch is - though, if I recall correctly, FW said JR yelled before he switched on the light.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  6. #6
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    I'm not sure about the issue of visibility in the train room - I'm pretty sure in Kolar's book he says experiments showed that John wouldn't have been able to see her in the light conditions yet he exclaimed immediately upon opening the door, before he hit the light. So that potentially explains why FW wouldn't have seen her. Either way, something is up with how she is discovered in that room.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozazure View Post
    I'm not sure about the issue of visibility in the train room - I'm pretty sure in Kolar's book he says experiments showed that John wouldn't have been able to see her in the light conditions yet he exclaimed immediately upon opening the door, before he hit the light. So that potentially explains why FW wouldn't have seen her. Either way, something is up with how she is discovered in that room.
    She was in the wine cellar, not the train room. Long ago I had read that LE tested the ambient light that would shine into the dark wine cellar from the area just outside- if someone was standing at the door to the WC looking in to the dark room with the light coming in behind him. They had said that there should have been enough light to see at least the white blanket she was wrapped in had she been in the spot where JR "found" her later.
    However- the wine cellar was L-shaped. There was just a short section of the room i front of you as you stood at the doorway. To see "further" into the room, you had to step inside and look to your left. FW admitted he did not actually do this.
    Part of out problem is that we also don't know how LONG he looked. He may have given just a cursory glance, saw nothing and shut the door again. She MAY have been there, just a tad to the left, and he simply did not allow time for his eyes to adjust to the dark room. OR JR may have moved her a bit closer (sliding her along the floor still wrapped in the blanket).
    It is also possible that originally JR hid her deeper inside the house's most hidden room because he did not WANT her to be found. It is very possible that the Rs were under the (very mistaken ) impression that LE would leave them alone in the house at some point, after which they would decide how to tell them she had been returned or found. When it became apparent that LE were NOT going to just leave and allow the family to remain unsupervised inside the home, plans had to be adjusted or run the risk of having her rotting corpse found by cadaver dogs. NO open coffin with tiara and pageant dress. I think they never thought the whole house would be considered an active crime scene- since she had been "kidnapped" and was not supposed to be in the house. This is my theory as to why she was hidden only to be found later by JR. I have never felt they were going to dump her outside or leave her behind. Had that "escape" by plane that JR was prevented from doing actually happened, I believe he'd have sent someone he trusted into the house to "find" her.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    She was in the wine cellar, not the train room. Long ago I had read that LE tested the ambient light that would shine into the dark wine cellar from the area just outside- if someone was standing at the door to the WC looking in to the dark room with the light coming in behind him. They had said that there should have been enough light to see at least the white blanket she was wrapped in had she been in the spot where JR "found" her later.
    However- the wine cellar was L-shaped. There was just a short section of the room i front of you as you stood at the doorway. To see "further" into the room, you had to step inside and look to your left. FW admitted he did not actually do this.
    Part of out problem is that we also don't know how LONG he looked. He may have given just a cursory glance, saw nothing and shut the door again. She MAY have been there, just a tad to the left, and he simply did not allow time for his eyes to adjust to the dark room. OR JR may have moved her a bit closer (sliding her along the floor still wrapped in the blanket).
    It is also possible that originally JR hid her deeper inside the house's most hidden room because he did not WANT her to be found. It is very possible that the Rs were under the (very mistaken ) impression that LE would leave them alone in the house at some point, after which they would decide how to tell them she had been returned or found. When it became apparent that LE were NOT going to just leave and allow the family to remain unsupervised inside the home, plans had to be adjusted or run the risk of having her rotting corpse found by cadaver dogs. NO open coffin with tiara and pageant dress. I think they never thought the whole house would be considered an active crime scene- since she had been "kidnapped" and was not supposed to be in the house. This is my theory as to why she was hidden only to be found later by JR. I have never felt they were going to dump her outside or leave her behind. Had that "escape" by plane that JR was prevented from doing actually happened, I believe he'd have sent someone he trusted into the house to "find" her.
    Well, if they didn't expect cops to hang around, then it makes some sense that PR called 911 - not expecting the body would be found.

    Myself, I don't buy your theory. I don't see how reasonably intelligent people were going to think the cops would just take a few notes and then leave. Even if that would happen, they'd have to have anticipated tracking dogs (or cadaver dogs). Had dogs been brought in, the body would be found within minutes. (K9 unit was on standby, but never called in, so there is nothing far fetched about anticipating a K9 unit) They'd have had to anticipate undercover police surveillance of the house because they'd have to know they would be suspects in a missing child case. They'd have to have anticipated phone taps - which in fact happened. I don't think there is any reasonable argument to be made that their plan was to have the body discovered in the house after the police left. Once the police were called there is really no way for the body to be "returned" or later discovered in the house w/o the police knowing it had been there all along.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  9. #9
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    I think they (eventually) decided that LE was going to find the body, or maybe another volunteer searches (White). But when that didn't happen and morning dragged on JR had to "find" her himself.
    The 911 call had to be done and at that time. Everyone knew they were getting up in the morning to fly out, so they should have noticed JBR missing at around that time. They really couldn't have made the call any later. JMO

  10. #10
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    sorry, i meant the wine cellar.

    i do think they expected her to be found and he was impatient for it to happen. i don't know if FW should have been able to see her and so she wasn't there at that point, or JR shouldn't have been able to see her and yet pretended he did. i think the latter makes more sense, he didn't need to move her to a more visible spot to find her himself. he just had to pretend he saw her when she wasn't visible to get the show on the road.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by deca View Post
    I think they (eventually) decided that LE was going to find the body, or maybe another volunteer searches (White). But when that didn't happen and morning dragged on JR had to "find" her himself.
    The 911 call had to be done and at that time. Everyone knew they were getting up in the morning to fly out, so they should have noticed JBR missing at around that time. They really couldn't have made the call any later. JMO
    Some phone calls had to be made, but it didn't have to be the 911 call.

    It was their airplane, so they could have cancelled or delayed the flight at a whim. They could call the pilot, cancel the flight, and didn't even have to give a reason. If the two adult Rs were working together on a coverup, then they were in complete control of the timing of events, including the 911 call.

    The only two calls that had to be made were a call to the pilot to cancel their flight on their own aircraft, and a call to the adult kids who were to fly commercial to meet up in Mich.

    In both cases, the RN gives them the perfect "explanation" for cancellation, even if the explanation comes a day or two later.

    Since the flight had not been cancelled (or looking at it the other way -since the flight had been scheduled) this seems a good indication that the murder was not premeditated? At least not very far in advance.

    The 911 call did not have to be done until the next day, as per "tomorrow" in the RN. The threats of imminent death for JB if instructions were not followed to the letter provides them with the perfect cover for not calling as soon as they "discovered" that JB was missing.

    It is true that when they eventually call police they'll have to have made the "discovery" at about the time they'd normally get up. But the 911 call definitely didn't have to be made that morning.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  12. #12
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    I don't think the Rs expected tracking dogs or cadaver dogs to be used in the house. The main reason for claiming a "kidnapping" was to deflect suspicion AWAY from the house and the residents.
    As for the 911 call- I don't see how it could have been made any other time. By the next day she would have been considerably more decomposed, the smell would have been unmistakable to any LE who entered the house. I can see them canceling the flight (I assume this was done) but what would they have said to the adult kids? JB isn't coming along because she is kidnapped? But we haven't called police?
    In a more advanced stage of decomp, it would have been obvious to the coroner she had been dead LONG before the call. That would really have incriminated the Rs as it would have raised suspicions as to why they waited so long to call. Especially as the odor of death would be noticeable to the family.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I don't think the Rs expected tracking dogs or cadaver dogs to be used in the house. The main reason for claiming a "kidnapping" was to deflect suspicion AWAY from the house and the residents.
    It would be a reasonable thing to anticipate. Tracking dogs would come to the house and get JBs scent. Even if this were done outside, with a piece of her clothing, the dogs would pick up the scent and make a b-line for the basement. I don't see how they could have not anticipated dogs. The dogs were in fact on standby. Even outside, the dogs are going to smell a body, and if they get her scent, they will know she's in the basement.

    As for the 911 call- I don't see how it could have been made any other time. By the next day she would have been considerably more decomposed, the smell would have been unmistakable to any LE who entered the house.
    Well first, you seem to be assuming they wanted the police to find the body in the house. Even if that's true, they still have some leeway in making the call. In point of fact the body wasn't "found" for 7 hours, and no one was complaining about the smell of a decomposing body.

    If they didn't want the body found in the house, then they were completely at liberty to wait and make the call the next day after the kidnappers failed to return the girl after the ransom drop -per the RN.

    I can see them canceling the flight (I assume this was done) but what would they have said to the adult kids? JB isn't coming along because she is kidnapped? But we haven't called police?
    They could have told the adult kids JB was kidnapped, and not to call authorities, and that they'd keep them updated. I doubt they would have. The obvious thing to tell them is one (or both) kids have the flu, or something along those lines.

    In a more advanced stage of decomp, it would have been obvious to the coroner she had been dead LONG before the call.
    Well, that's true. If they waited until the next day, they'd have one rotten corpse to deal with. Of course TOD was established anyway, and we know it was several hours prior to the 911 call. So yes, if they actually wanted the body found in the house, they couldn't wait until the next day. We do know they could have waited until about 12 noon.

    That would really have incriminated the Rs as it would have raised suspicions as to why they waited so long to call. Especially as the odor of death would be noticeable to the family.
    Yes. But again, it's much more likely the plan was to dump the body, so the call didn't really need to be made at 5:52.


    It's theoretically possible they wanted the body found in the house, along with the phoney RN. IMO it's not very plausible, but it is possible.

    It really isn't even possible that their plan was to wait until the police left then "find" her, or claim she'd been "returned" by the kidnappers. Neither of the adult Ramseys were incapable of anticipating normal police practices. There was simply no way to pull that off and have it believed.

    The plan was either to dump the body (IMO by far the most likely plan) or to have the body found in the house along with a fake RN.
    I'm just playing detective here. I have no idea who killed JonBenet. It's just an opinion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I don't think the Rs expected tracking dogs or cadaver dogs to be used in the house. The main reason for claiming a "kidnapping" was to deflect suspicion AWAY from the house and the residents.
    As for the 911 call- I don't see how it could have been made any other time. By the next day she would have been considerably more decomposed, the smell would have been unmistakable to any LE who entered the house. I can see them canceling the flight (I assume this was done) but what would they have said to the adult kids? JB isn't coming along because she is kidnapped? But we haven't called police?
    In a more advanced stage of decomp, it would have been obvious to the coroner she had been dead LONG before the call. That would really have incriminated the Rs as it would have raised suspicions as to why they waited so long to call. Especially as the odor of death would be noticeable to the family.
    DeeDee249,
    Good points. Well we do have an aborted kidnapping. I reckon the R's expected JonBenet to be found quite quickly. This is after they have cleaned up as much forensic evidence as possible. With the Abduction Scenario they were simply making the best of a bad hand.

    JR knew full well with the kidapping staging he was creating a scene of plausible deniability, he continues to this day, co-opting religion to enhance his plausibility.

    The RN is the R's cover for not knowing where JonBenet is and why she was relocated to the wine-cellar. Nobody is claiming this is foolproof, its just that proving it wrong is difficult.

    Staging JonBenet's person at all, should be evidence enough that the R's fully expected her to be found.

    Use of a disposal site must mean JonBenet and all the forensic evidence should travel with her, and that this never be found again, since it all links back to the R's.

    So if you are going to dump JonBenet outdoors, how she is dressed, or if she is bleeding is secondary to this purpose. All that is required is something to wrap JonBenet in, as is the case in most homicides.

    .

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
    Well, that's true. If they waited until the next day, they'd have one rotten corpse to deal with. Of course TOD was established anyway, and we know it was several hours prior to the 911 call. So yes, if they actually wanted the body found in the house, they couldn't wait until the next day. We do know they could have waited until about 12 noon.
    Chrishope,
    So patently the R's put JonBenet's date of death on her tombstone, because they knew you had worked out what the plan really was?



    .

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