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  1. #1
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    i come to refute!

    for all of you anti-RDI theorists out there, i was curious as to how you would address a few pieces of undisputed evidence. please don't offer additional evidence, as that is not the purpose of this thread. only address the evidence presented with regards to how it can implicate someone other than a ramsey. if you feel it is disputed, please say so...

    1-patsy's shirt fibers were entwined in the knot on the garrotte.

    2-the ramseys lied about burke being asleep at the time of the 911 call. this is evidenced in the enhanced 911 call, as well as an interview with PR with NE.

    3-JR went down in the basement earlier in the morning, noticed the broken window, and did not mention it to police. the entire reason for him searching the house at that time, was to look for forced entry and anything out of place. he knew 100% that was a point of entry, and saw a broken, open window, but said nothing??? it almost seems like he "unstaged" the scene by closing the window. was he stalling?

    4-JR and PR claim to have put JBR directly to bed from the car. however, the police reports suggest that they read to her, and one would think that someone who wets the bed would not get put to sleep without using the bathroom.

    5-why didn't burke wake up from JBR and ?? opening the fridge and getting pineapple? why didn't burke wake up from PR and JR running around the house and screaming that morning? the bonita papers say that he told the psychologist that he woke up when someone so much as went to the bathroom in the middle of the night.

    think that's it. anyone want to step up to the plate?

  2. #2
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    1. Patsy lived in that house and the paintbrush handle was used in the garrotte. I can't believe she sexually abused her daughter, tasered her, and choked her to death. It's easier to believe her fibers are in the house because in fact, that's her house.

    2. I don't know any evidence about that specifically, and specifically, if that's Burke's voice on the tape because I can't hear it.

    3. It is in fact a point in his favor that he doesn't run around screaming look at the broken window, look at the broken window. How does failing to report what might be an entry place point to his guilt? It points to his innocence, his preoccupation with finding his daughter, or whatever. Someone who's trying to cover his tracks would quickly point out a possible point of entry for an intruder.

    4. Stuff happens. My oldest wet the bed until he was 4 or 5, sometimes he went to bed straight from the car. Why would they lie about reading to her/not reading to her?

    5. Why does opening the fridge wake up someone in a huge house? You could set off a bomb in my house and my kids wouldn't necessarily wake up. We have severe storms and they don't wake up. One time a felon was loose in the neighborhood and the cops came in, having found his scent in my garage (we had arrived home recently), asked if they could search the house with rottweilers. My Jack Russell Terrier was barking his head off, the rotties were searching my boy's room with the lights blazing and THEY DID NOT WAKE UP. It depends on what sleep cycle they're in. My youngest son will tell you he wakes easily, and sometimes he does, but not always. Jessica Lunsford's parents slept through that drug addict walking through the trailer going through everyone's rooms, and even the dog slept through that too. It means nothing that a 9 year old slept through someone opening the refrigerator.

    When I think of Patsy Ramsey being involved in this, I just can't get there from here. You really have to suspend reality. Beat that girl to death for peeing in the bed? Give me a break! People who beat their kids to death for peeing in the bed, or for some other infraction, no one is surprised because that's their basic personality.

    Why is it so hard for people to believe what seems absolutely obvious? That a sexual predator broke in, tortured and murdered her.

    Why is it easier for people to believe her parents killed her and then did a darn good job of making it look like a sexual predator killed her, or that Burke killed her and then someone else wrote the ransom note and tied the garrotte and covered his tracks completely? How bizarre is that?

    I have to ask, Voice of Reason. Did you have an opinion on the Jessica Lunsford case? Did you think it was the grandmother, or the grandfather, or the dad? Or did you believe the obvious, that it was an intruder?

    Edited to Add: VOR, why do you call your statements "undisputed"? The National Enquirer is a hopeless rag of lies, you can't take anything seriously although sometimes they do get some things right, you can't call it "undisputed".

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatherineQ
    1. It's easier to believe her fibers are in the house because in fact, that's her house.
    but i'm not referring to her fibers in the house. i'm referring to her fibers that were actually tangled up inside the knot that made the garrotte.

    Quote Originally Posted by KatherineQ
    2. I don't know any evidence about that specifically, and specifically, if that's Burke's voice on the tape because I can't hear it.
    the tape is debateable, but the ramseys candidly admitted to the national enquirer that burke was awake. i understand NE is not always the best source, but it was a full-on interview. a quote is a quote. i can't find the link right now, but it is out there. i just can't understand why an innocent person would lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by KatherineQ
    3. It is in fact a point in his favor that he doesn't run around screaming look at the broken window, look at the broken window. How does failing to report what might be an entry place point to his guilt? It points to his innocence, his preoccupation with finding his daughter, or whatever. Someone who's trying to cover his tracks would quickly point out a possible point of entry for an intruder.
    i agree this situation is odd, and it may swing both ways, but keep in mind, at the time, JR was not looking for his daughter in the house. she was presumably kidnapped. he was looking for how this happened, so the police could better investigate. if my child were kidnapped, and i found a broken window, i would most certainly be screaming "look at the broken window."

    Quote Originally Posted by KatherineQ
    I have to ask, Voice of Reason. Did you have an opinion on the Jessica Lunsford case? Did you think it was the grandmother, or the grandfather, or the dad? Or did you believe the obvious, that it was an intruder?
    honestly, i was afraid of family involvement, but i did not pass judgment. in my gut, i thought that it was going to turn up that someone in that house did something very wrong, but in my heart, i hoped that was not the case. it was solved before i had really formed any firm opinions, and i didn't follow it that closely. JBR is 8+years old. i'm hypothesizing based on what we know. FWIW, i don't think that you have to say PDI to feel that a ramsey or more was somehow involved. there's also burke and john, and the idea that someone did the deed, and they covered...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
    the tape is debateable, but the ramseys candidly admitted to the national enquirer that burke was awake. i understand NE is not always the best source, but it was a full-on interview. a quote is a quote. i can't find the link right now, but it is out there. i just can't understand why an innocent person would lie.







    .
    I don't normally get involved in the discussions but I do have this to say about the interview and Burke being awake.

    I see people making it sound as though the Ramseys admitted to Burke being awake and so that means he was downstairs. But..... They said in the interview that they found out later that Burke was awake and pretending to be asleep. He was still in bed and pretending when the officer looked in the room.

    So, they may have admitted to him being awake but I feel the rest should be told. Why leave it always that he was awake and making it sound as though he was downstairs when that was not said in the interview? Burke admitted later that he was "playing possum" and the Ramseys decided to tell the truth about it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
    for all of you anti-RDI theorists out there, i was curious as to how you would address a few pieces of undisputed evidence. please don't offer additional evidence, as that is not the purpose of this thread. only address the evidence presented with regards to how it can implicate someone other than a ramsey. if you feel it is disputed, please say so...

    1-patsy's shirt fibers were entwined in the knot on the garrotte.

    2-the ramseys lied about burke being asleep at the time of the 911 call. this is evidenced in the enhanced 911 call, as well as an interview with PR with NE.

    3-JR went down in the basement earlier in the morning, noticed the broken window, and did not mention it to police. the entire reason for him searching the house at that time, was to look for forced entry and anything out of place. he knew 100% that was a point of entry, and saw a broken, open window, but said nothing??? it almost seems like he "unstaged" the scene by closing the window. was he stalling?

    4-JR and PR claim to have put JBR directly to bed from the car. however, the police reports suggest that they read to her, and one would think that someone who wets the bed would not get put to sleep without using the bathroom.

    5-why didn't burke wake up from JBR and ?? opening the fridge and getting pineapple? why didn't burke wake up from PR and JR running around the house and screaming that morning? the bonita papers say that he told the psychologist that he woke up when someone so much as went to the bathroom in the middle of the night.


    think that's it. anyone want to step up to the plate?

    You CANNOT EXPLAIN AWAY THE DNA HON!!!
    1) Patsy as with in me in my home.... would have all that entwinded with her fibers...... she LAYED ON HER CHILD WHEN SHE WAS BROUGHT UP FROM THE BASEMENT.... how can that NOT crosscontaminate???

    2) I TOO, LIKE YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF EQUIPMENT.... what I don't have is a vivid imagination. THERE'S NOTHING ELSE. EVEN NBC DID a segment and could not find a shred of additional conversation!!!!!

    3) IF John broke the window LONG AGO LIKE HE SAID.... why would that be a "suspicious" thing to report???? There were remnants of me breaking into my grandma's home cause I forgot my key... you can still see a "little" damage today! WHY would I mention that as suspicious to the police????

    4) Potty training my kids... including my daughter when she was ALREADY 6, I would not make her go to the bathroom if I brought her in sleeping. It was never a big deal. Children's bladders grow at different rates. Who cares... why would that make anyone a murder suspect. GOD!!!!

    5) DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY CHILDREN OF YOUR OWN???? I used to SLEEP at loud weddings! My kids could sleep through a train running through our house!!!! OHHHHHHHHHH Incidently, they DID. we were camping last summer and we were 40 feet away from train tracks. They didn't even stirl when the FRICKING TRAIN railed through with horns blarring.

    anything else?

    you know what this all tells me????? REASONABLE DOUBT. WHICH IS WHY THIS HAS NOT GONE TO TRIAL!!!!!!!!!

    The parents DID NOT DO IT. GET OVER IT ALREADY.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueclouds
    You CANNOT EXPLAIN AWAY THE DNA HON!!!
    1) Patsy as with in me in my home.... would have all that entwinded with her fibers...... she LAYED ON HER CHILD WHEN SHE WAS BROUGHT UP FROM THE BASEMENT.... how can that NOT crosscontaminate???

    2) I TOO, LIKE YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF EQUIPMENT.... what I don't have is a vivid imagination. THERE'S NOTHING ELSE. EVEN NBC DID a segment and could not find a shred of additional conversation!!!!!

    3) IF John broke the window LONG AGO LIKE HE SAID.... why would that be a "suspicious" thing to report???? There were remnants of me breaking into my grandma's home cause I forgot my key... you can still see a "little" damage today! WHY would I mention that as suspicious to the police????

    4) Potty training my kids... including my daughter when she was ALREADY 6, I would not make her go to the bathroom if I brought her in sleeping. It was never a big deal. Children's bladders grow at different rates. Who cares... why would that make anyone a murder suspect. GOD!!!!

    5) DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY CHILDREN OF YOUR OWN???? I used to SLEEP at loud weddings! My kids could sleep through a train running through our house!!!! OHHHHHHHHHH Incidently, they DID. we were camping last summer and we were 40 feet away from train tracks. They didn't even stirl when the FRICKING TRAIN railed through with horns blarring.

    anything else?

    you know what this all tells me????? REASONABLE DOUBT. WHICH IS WHY THIS HAS NOT GONE TO TRIAL!!!!!!!!!

    The parents DID NOT DO IT. GET OVER IT ALREADY.
    apparently, you missed the part of this thread where i said it is not a thread to introduce other evidence, it is simply to discuss certain concrete evidence. but actually, the DNA can be explained. see tricia's post on a recent thread regarding this.

    point 1 - the fibers were TIED INTO THE KNOT. that is not possible if you did not tie the knot. please read carefully!

    point 2 - you may have a lot of equipment; i may have a lot of equipment; and NBC may have a lot of equipment. but neither of us has the equipment that was used by the FBI and NASA. the ramseys have since recanted their statement that burke was asleep. this is a fact.

    point 3 - if the police ask how someone could have broken into your house to kidnap your child, and there is a broken window that you know for a fact is a way in your house because you have personally used it, and you look directly at it that morning as the police are in your house, that is exactly the type of info the police are looking for. think about it. wouldn't you mention it to the police?????

    point 4 and 5 - you make good points. this thread was to encourage discussion, not argument, and here we succeed!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
    1-patsy's shirt fibers were entwined in the knot on the garrotte.

    I wasn't going to respond to this nonsense, but here I am. What source did you get this from because it's news to me and I've followed the case from the very beginning. I know that JB's hair was tangled in the garrote but not Patsy's shirt fibers. Please back up this allegation.
    Karen

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuntieKaren

    I wasn't going to respond to this nonsense, but here I am. What source did you get this from because it's news to me and I've followed the case from the very beginning. I know that JB's hair was tangled in the garrote but not Patsy's shirt fibers. Please back up this allegation.
    Karen
    Yes, please back this up.

  9. #9
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    Yes, the facts mentioned are far from indisputable,they are questionable as ever being facts.
    Here's one for ya'
    There was a Sas shoe print outside the window well, two others of the same origin found inside the house, no one in the Ramsey home wore Sas shoes, these shoes are normally known as "comfort shoes" for nurses, and housekeepers. The only person we KNOW who owned a pair is Pam Griffin. Do we suspect she and the photographer were on a mission? No ,because we can realize there are many who own Sas shoes, that we can't name.
    The fibers are the same, sure they are consistent with any other red fibers of the same synthetic material , and we know ,as well, that this was Christmas,the season for red fibers. Santa suits are red, wasn't there one found in that basement?
    As to the garotte having red fibers entwined, I would love the source, as I have been with this case since the beginning, and realize how difficult it is to separate the forum guesses from the actual facts, I do find this one suspect.

    The rest of the items aren't on my fact list either, sorry.
    Last edited by sissi; 03-31-2005 at 01:37 PM.

  10. #10
    Oh my Goodness! If the National Enquirer had a full lenth article it must be true!!!!! The Grand Jury must of not of had that article.The only thing National Enquirer , Globe, The Star , etc... is good to line my cat litter box.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dottierainbow
    Oh my Goodness! If the National Enquirer had a full lenth article it must be true!!!!! The Grand Jury must of not of had that article.The only thing National Enquirer , Globe, The Star , etc... is good to line my cat litter box.
    i agree completely, but there is a big difference between a NE article, and an interview. interviews with direct quotes must be taken at face value. i will be posting a followup message soon with all the sources people are requesting. i just want it to be complete and thorough so i avoid double-posting.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
    i agree completely, but there is a big difference between a NE article, and an interview. interviews with direct quotes must be taken at face value. i will be posting a followup message soon with all the sources people are requesting. i just want it to be complete and thorough so i avoid double-posting.

    The source for the fibers was the August 2000 interviews in Atlanta while interviewing Patsy Ramsey. The following was a discussion between Bruce Levin and Lin Wood:

    BRUCE LEVIN: "Based on the state of the art of scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket she's wrapped in, and were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

    LIN WOOD: "Right. Not without -- I mean with all due respect, Bruce, even the discussion we had, as I can best recall it, we didn't get a consistent description of the fiber results on the question of the paint tray. You are sitting here making a record saying that it is a fact, and I don't know that."

    BlueCrab

    EDITED to add fibers were also found on the blanket.
    Last edited by BlueCrab; 04-01-2005 at 10:07 PM.

  13. #13
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    Sources

    okay, here are all the sources for the 5 points at the start of this thread.

    1-patsy's fibers in the knot (and on the inside of the duct tape, too, which is just as incriminating)

    see BlueCrab's post above, but also, The Abrams Report from July 17, 2003. The guest panel was: Michael Kane, Larry Pozner, Wendy Murphy, Lawrence Schiller and Lin Wood.

    MURPHY: "Don’t forget for a minute that nobody really disputes Patsy Ramsey’s sweater fibers were on the tape" and "wrapped inside the garrote."

    2-burke was awake at the time of the 911 call.

    National Enquirer, 4/3/01...I do not trust the NE either, but a quote is a quote.

    "Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

    "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

    my note: if JR "thought" he was asleep, how does he know he had tears in his eyes?

    3-JR discovering the window and saying nothing.

    4/30/1997 - BPD Interview

    ST: And you mentioned when you went down in the morning, the 26th, and it was unlatched, did that strike you as odd or did you bring that to anybody’s attention?

    JR: I, I don’t know. I mean when I was, I think, yeah, I think it probably struck me as a little odd, but it wasn’t, I mean sometimes that window would be open because the basement got hot, or one of those windows would be opened. So it wasn’t . . .

    ST: Particularly unusual?

    JR: It was [sic] dramatically out of the ordinary, but, that is, I thought about it.

    <snip>

    JR: I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window, and you would have had to, you could have gotten into the house without that, but you couldn’t have gotten out that window without something to step on.

    my note: so he doesn't say anything that day, but now it's "his theory"? his daughter's missing, and he doesn't mention that the one way to get in the house aside from the front door is that window?

    4 and 5 are mostly sourced from the Bonita Papers. I know many of you object to their truth, so we'll just stick to the first three points.

  14. #14
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    Fibers

    Am I remembering correctly that the fibers found, and shown to be "consistent" with what Patsy was wearing, were red? Wasn't her top red AND black? Does anyone else find it odd that only red fibers were found? Why wouldn't there also be balck fibers? Were these fibers determined to be identical, or only similiar to those in Patsy's top?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dottierainbow
    Oh my Goodness! If the National Enquirer had a full lenth article it must be true!!!!! The Grand Jury must of not of had that article.The only thing National Enquirer , Globe, The Star , etc... is good to line my cat litter box.
    This was YEARS after the GJ. If you had read the article the Ramsey's say they learned about Burke's GJ testimony (which proves once again they lied about vital information) where he stated he was indeed awake that morning, but was pretending to be asleep. The interview was part of a settlement agreement with the NE. Patsy even baked cookies (or so she said) for the interviewers...

    The article also proves the Ramsey's lied when they said they never talked to Burke about anything concerning that day. They couldn't have known anything about what Burke's GJ testimony was and NO ONE may speak about what they testified to (it's illegal to divuldge that information), yet the Rams know what Burke said? Why would they need to know what he said if they "NEVER" talked to him about what happened to JB. Burke also said to the psychologist that he did speak to his father about what happened to JB. Not only are the Rams liars, they're letting everyone know how they don't think the laws apply to them.


    1-patsy's shirt fibers were entwined in the knot on the garrotte.
    I remember fibers "consitant with" but not able to be proven as an exact match were found on the duct tape, but never anything mentioned about them being in the knott.

    2-the ramseys lied about burke being asleep at the time of the 911 call. this is evidenced in the enhanced 911 call, as well as an interview with PR with NE.
    They still stated they didn't know he was awake until they heard what his GJ testimony was. The enhanced (Aerospace) tape has never been made public (that anyone can prove anyway), and only a few people claim Burke's voice is on it.

    3-JR went down in the basement earlier in the morning, noticed the broken window, and did not mention it to police. the entire reason for him searching the house at that time, was to look for forced entry and anything out of place. he knew 100% that was a point of entry, and saw a broken, open window, but said nothing??? it almost seems like he "unstaged" the scene by closing the window. was he stalling?
    That has always been a point of contention. Yes, he was looking for a point of entry, or "anything out of place" yet he closes it and says nothing? BTW the window opens INTO the basement, it would be easy to break the glass and have it fall into the room...

    4-JR and PR claim to have put JBR directly to bed from the car. however, the police reports suggest that they read to her, and one would think that someone who wets the bed would not get put to sleep without using the bathroom.
    And Burke says JB walked into the house and up the stairs on her own! Patsy claimed she and JB said their prayers as well, then changed it to saying she said prayers while JB slept.

    5-why didn't burke wake up from JBR and ?? opening the fridge and getting pineapple? why didn't burke wake up from PR and JR running around the house and screaming that morning? the bonita papers say that he told the psychologist that he woke up when someone so much as went to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
    We know from the Ramsey's own admission that not only was Burke awake, but that he testified to the GJ about it. IOW the Ramsey's broke the law and then flaunted it in the face of every person in Boulder and proved they will lie about anything, anytime, to anyone as long as it cover's their own behinds.

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