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  1. #31
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    Thankfully we are not responsible for a decision in this case. I certainly will not be celebrating the verdict no matter what it turns out to be. The whole thing just makes me sad.

  2. #32
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    Jun 2013
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    No matter the verdict, I want to thank many WS members for insightful opinions, facts and well-argued posts that shed more light onto the case, eg. the possibility of gun recoil that could account for GZ's bleeding nose in the absence of GZ DNA on TM, details about Florida's self-defense laws, etc. Please keep them up, they are valuable information. IMO

  3. #33
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    Did anyone else come into this thinking George was guilty?

    Ans what changed your mind?

    I thought he was guilty until may of last year when the truth finally started coming out. IMO

  4. #34
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    Atlanta
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    I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

    Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

    Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crgft-rtNOA#t=55s"]Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSjFFZtXDdE"]Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb8wZ1kCMDU#t=50s"]KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube[/ame]

    This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnSc3Dtb-_Y"]Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube[/ame]

    It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

    Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:



    It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

    Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:



    Now, onto the question about hollow points.

    It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

    Let's dissect this one by one:

    Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

    The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

    This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

    In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.



    All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkz View Post
    Wondering if the pic shown yesterday on TV (reportedly shown to the jury early on in testimony) has changed any minds here.

    The pic is very graphic and I will not post a link, but it sure puts the skipping due to baggy pants to rest, shows minimal grass stains and seriously TM does not even look like he was in a roll on the ground tussle. WOW just WOW.

    TM was wearing khakis, skinny khakis.
    I have no idea how any of this proves what he did or didn't do. He had grass stains on knees, he was seen on top of gz.
    The picture is sad and emotional. It is a horrible thing that he is gone. But it still does not prove that gz killed him with ill will. That he wanted tm dead.

    And that is what matters. Did the state prove that gz killed tm with ill will. That he wanted him dead.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  6. #36
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    Aug 2009
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    122
    It is too bad that George Zimmerman's involvement in getting justice for a black homeless man beaten up by the then Sanford Police Chief's son was not widely publicized. Anything pro GZ in the media isn't widely reported.
    Interestingly enough, the current Judge Nelson was also the judge in the previous case.
    http://www.nejamelaw.com/rick-jancha...probation.html

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/...eless_man.html
    From article:
    Upset at the lack of media attention, Zimmerman and his wife Shellie printed fliers demanding that the community "hold accountable" officers responsible for any misconduct.

    They then drove the fliers around to area churches and passed them out on a Sunday morning. Later, at a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line."

    This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, Police Chief Brian Tooley, whom Zimmerman blasted for his "illegal cover-up and corruption," was forced to resign.

    Ironically, perhaps, Zimmerman headlined his fliers with a famous quote from Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He would have been better off quoting another Anglo-Irishman, Oscar Wilde: "No good deed goes unpunished."

    <modsnip>


    .....................
    No good deed goes unpunished. Indeed.
    Last edited by Harmony 2; 07-13-2013 at 12:47 PM. Reason: snipped to comply with copyright rule

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJ View Post
    Just praying that whatever verdict is reached that there is no violence afterward!
    IMO, there should be no violence anywhere, no matter the verdict. Whatever the outcome, it was determined via a jury trial, which is at the very core of our constitution.

  8. #38
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    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by nnglas View Post
    IMO it's not hard to have no probable cause when you don't conduct an investigation.

    TM's hands weren't bagged in order to get evidence that gave the injuries to GZ.

    RJ wasn't contacted to see what if anything she heard.

    The only investigation was listening to GZ.

    And don't forget that Serino wanted GZ charged and this police chief refused.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Read the article I gave the link to. Mr Lee disputes that, and says when news outlets were claiming there was no investigation, these same news organizations were posting pictures showing they were out in full force doing just that. The police chief got it right....there was zero evidence to show it was anything other than self defense.
    These are my opinions, and the last time I checked, I was still entitled to them.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    7,556
    At this stage of the trial I don't think folks on here are going to change their minds about Zimmerman's innocence or guilt. It's just nice having this little niche of our own while we wait for the verdict. I have some nice cheese pizza to keep up my strength. Of course once they tell us that there is a verdict I'll be a nervous wreck.

    Hopefully there will be peace all around regardless of the verdict. Prayers for everyone to keep it together.

  10. #40
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    So if George is found guilty he will have to stay in jail for at least 18 months correct?

    I also hope this jury votes out of fear that riots will start if they do not give the correct verdict.


  11. #41
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    May 2012
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    Northern California
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    923
    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

    Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

    Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
    KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

    This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

    Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

    It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

    Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:



    It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

    Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:



    Now, onto the question about hollow points.

    It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

    Let's dissect this one by one:

    Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

    The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

    This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

    In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.



    All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.
    You are showing no one laying on the ground, wrestling for control of the gun, twisting, turning, arms pushed and pulled- seconds to line up the shot with the non dominant hand and firing this pistol between two bodies, just inches from his face!! There is no video of that scenario- or the injuries that would occur from a twisted barrel flip and recoil. He wasn't just standing there firing like on a firing range while Trayvon held still.
    "You are free to choose, You are not free from the consequences of your choices."

  12. #42
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    Aug 2009
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    122
    I caught the very end of Nancy Grace last night and almost fell out of my chair. She was THISCLOSE to siding with the defense. IMO. She said as a prosecutor she weighed her cases heavily on the ME evidence and this ME failed horribly. She didn't even cut off or insult Taffe who was also on her show. Again I only saw the end but I was very surprised by her non-bias.

  13. #43
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    Feb 2010
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    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by bellaalex View Post
    It is too bad that George Zimmerman's involvement in getting justice for a black homeless man beaten up by the then Sanford Police Chief's son was not widely publicized. Anything pro GZ in the media isn't widely reported.
    Interestingly enough, the current Judge Nelson was also the judge in the previous case.
    http://www.nejamelaw.com/rick-jancha...probation.html

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/...eless_man.html
    From article:
    Upset at the lack of media attention, Zimmerman and his wife Shellie printed fliers demanding that the community "hold accountable" officers responsible for any misconduct.

    They then drove the fliers around to area churches and passed them out on a Sunday morning. Later, at a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line."

    This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, Police Chief Brian Tooley, whom Zimmerman blasted for his "illegal cover-up and corruption," was forced to resign.

    Ironically, perhaps, Zimmerman headlined his fliers with a famous quote from Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He would have been better off quoting another Anglo-Irishman, Oscar Wilde: "No good deed goes unpunished."
    <modsnip>


    .....................
    No good deed goes unpunished. Indeed.
    I had never heard this, but it doesn't surprise me. Too bad your attempt to educate will go unread by most of us here. It's an eyeopener!
    Last edited by Harmony 2; 07-13-2013 at 12:51 PM. Reason: snipped quoted post to comply with copyright
    These are my opinions, and the last time I checked, I was still entitled to them.

  14. #44
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    Jun 2011
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    7,556
    Quote Originally Posted by bellaalex View Post
    It is too bad that George Zimmerman's involvement in getting justice for a black homeless man beaten up by the then Sanford Police Chief's son was not widely publicized. Anything pro GZ in the media isn't widely reported.
    Interestingly enough, the current Judge Nelson was also the judge in the previous case.
    http://www.nejamelaw.com/rick-jancha...probation.html

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/...eless_man.html
    From article:
    Upset at the lack of media attention, Zimmerman and his wife Shellie printed fliers demanding that the community "hold accountable" officers responsible for any misconduct.

    They then drove the fliers around to area churches and passed them out on a Sunday morning. Later, at a public meeting in January 2011, Zimmerman took the floor and said, "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white. It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those that are in the thin blue line."

    This meeting was recorded on video. As a result of the publicity, Police Chief Brian Tooley, whom Zimmerman blasted for his "illegal cover-up and corruption," was forced to resign.

    Ironically, perhaps, Zimmerman headlined his fliers with a famous quote from Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." He would have been better off quoting another Anglo-Irishman, Oscar Wilde: "No good deed goes unpunished."
    <modsnip>


    .....................
    No good deed goes unpunished. Indeed.
    I find it so sad that Zimmerman who went out of his way to help others had no help when he was in urgent need.
    Last edited by Harmony 2; 07-13-2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: snipped quoted post

  15. #45
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    Mar 2012
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    12,667
    Quote Originally Posted by rose222 View Post
    At this stage of the trial I don't think folks on here are going to change their minds about Zimmerman's innocence or guilt. It's just nice having this little niche of our own while we wait for the verdict. I have some nice cheese pizza to keep up my strength. Of course once they tell us that there is a verdict I'll be a nervous wreck.

    Hopefully there will be peace all around regardless of the verdict. Prayers for everyone to keep it together.
    I agree.
    I went into this case as a juror. I assumed him innocent and waited for the state to change my mind. It never happened. They never showed me that with ill will he killed TM.
    The evidence shows that TM beat him and he shot him to protect his person and life as allowed by law. Omo
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

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