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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

    Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

    Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
    KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

    This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

    Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

    It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

    Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:



    It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

    Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:



    Now, onto the question about hollow points.

    It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

    Let's dissect this one by one:

    Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

    The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

    This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

    In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.



    All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.
    Thank you for your post. Makes perfect sense.

  2. #47
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  3. #48
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    Mar 2012
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    Atlanta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahouston69 View Post
    You are showing no one laying on the ground, wrestling for control of the gun, twisting, turning, arms pushed and pulled- seconds to line up the shot with the non dominant hand and firing this pistol between two bodies, just inches from his face!! There is no video of that scenario- or the injuries that would occur from a twisted barrel flip and recoil. He wasn't just standing there firing like on a firing range while Trayvon held still.
    "Twisted barrel flip and recoil"?

    Do you understand how weapons work? Honestly, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky.

    Do you understand the issues with small weapons, like the Kel-Tec PF9?

    If the barrel was twisting around and Zimmerman had such a poor grip on it, he would have been a victim of what is called "limp wristing". This is when the force of the recoil is lost on the movement of the hand/wrist and does not allow the battery to fully cycle on the pistol. You can see this occurring in the second video I posted where the man was standing there, with a full grip on the weapon.

    This is a very real issue in smaller weapons because of the amount of recoil produced versus the weight of the gun. Traditionally, the force of the blowback mostly goes into moving the slide back and forth. This is much easier to control with larger, heavier-framed weapons and why revolvers and heavier guns are suggested for females.

    If the person does not have full control over the firearm, the weapon will not cycle fully. The round may or may not be ejected - it may stovepipe. The next round will not be cycled into the chamber. The Kel-Tec PF9 is notorious for this. If Zimmerman was holding it so loosely that the barrel was twisting around, going back into his head and slamming his head on the ground, then how did another round get chambered for the police to eject upon clearing his weapon?

    The entire scenario is improbable, and doesn't even begin to align with the evidence.


  4. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Small Town Missouri
    Posts
    1,534
    Hi WS'ers, I have stayed away from posting on this trial because I like being here. But today I will state that the state did not have a case to begin with and their underhandedness has proved to me my initial thoughts were true. Oh yes, in case you haven't heard the IT Director who testified that the state did NOT turn over information to the Defense has been FIRED. Guess it doesn't pay to tell the truth in Sanford FL. If George is convicted it will be yet another miscarriage of justice in FL. CA got off with killing Caylee.......will GZ pay for defending himself? ALL is JMO.
    Team Travis

  5. #50
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    Apr 2012
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    5,749
    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    So if George is found guilty he will have to stay in jail for at least 18 months correct?

    I also hope this jury votes out of fear that riots will start if they do not give the correct verdict.
    He'll have to stay in jail until Nelson is reversed on appeal, imo. I don't think that will take as long as it otherwise might since it's clear that the DCA is paying attention and the integrity of (what remains) of the Florida judiciary is on the line. jmo

  6. #51
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    Nov 2009
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    Vancouver
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    IIRC, they did go door to door, the investigation lasted for several hours.

    George never said Trayvon was a **** intent on burglary.

    He thought he might be one, but he never right out said that he was. IMO
    No they went door to door close by to find witnesses - not to identify Trayvon. They sent out no notices - just left him lying in the morgue as an identified AA young male.

    didn't he? What excuse did he say about Trayvon supposively walking through the complex and "circling his car"?
    When there is Justice - there is Peace.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    1,592
    Morning all

    There are two things I'm looking for, and wondering if anybody can help.

    1. Does anybody know if the police checked pings from Trayvon's phone on the day of Feb 26? If they did, can anybody provide details? This would be to establish where he physically was between let's say 4pm and 7pm.

    2. Can anybody point me to a site that shows pics of Trayvon's hands/knuckles. Don't post them here, just point me to where they can be found. Can't seem to find anything online.

    Thanks

    IMO
    Visit my blog at: www.juror13lw.wordpress.com

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    5,658
    Justice for George. I hope the jury comes back soon with a not-guilty verdict so he can try to repair the damage done to his life by the media and the civil rights industry. imo
    Justice for GEORGE!

  9. #54
    Hey. I don't have a link, but apparently Kurbidos(?) the guy who leaked the phone records was fired yesterday.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    923
    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

    Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

    Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
    KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

    This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

    Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

    It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

    Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:



    It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

    Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:



    Now, onto the question about hollow points.

    It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

    Let's dissect this one by one:

    Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

    The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

    This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

    In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.



    All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.
    Matter of fact, after watching all of these, video examples, (shooting by men with two hands, standing up).......and still significant recoil.....I am convinced now more than ever that one handed, the non-dominant one at that, on the ground, on his back with only inches between them- caused his facial injuries. Thank you for posting!
    "You are free to choose, You are not free from the consequences of your choices."


  11. #56
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    20,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy Puppy View Post
    From time to time (like right now, lol) it occurs to me that this trial is geographically near the location of the Casey Anthony trial. Given the public outcry against the Casey Anthony verdict, I am wondering if this could work against the defense in this case?
    Ya know...I really don't think so. This case just has a whole different vibe, IMO.
    The State here sure could have learned something from the prosecutors of that case.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    1,592
    Thanks for opening this thread today, mods.

    I was like a junkie last night after hours searching for cheap forums hoping to get a fix
    Visit my blog at: www.juror13lw.wordpress.com

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    746
    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyinMO View Post
    Hi WS'ers, I have stayed away from posting on this trial because I like being here. But today I will state that the state did not have a case to begin with and their underhandedness has proved to me my initial thoughts were true. Oh yes, in case you haven't heard the IT Director who testified that the state did NOT turn over information to the Defense has been FIRED. Guess it doesn't pay to tell the truth in Sanford FL. If George is convicted it will be yet another miscarriage of justice in FL. CA got off with killing Caylee.......will GZ pay for defending himself? ALL is JMO.
    ....and so it begins...

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    7,230
    Hoping the jurors do the right thing, look at the fact and evidence and give the only correct verdict, an acquittal . I have faith in this jury.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Vancouver
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    16,024
    Quote Originally Posted by m00c0w View Post
    I have seen something repeatedly discussed in the thread that, IMO, is an unfounded assertion based on little evidence.

    Let's try to take an objective look at the notion that Zimmerman's weapon recoiling into his face may have cut his nose, bloodied it, potentially broken it, and slammed his head into the ground.

    Here are three videos of the weapon being fired:

    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Day (Part 1) - YouTube
    Kel-Tec PF9 Range Review: EDC or Closet Bound? - YouTube
    KEL-TEC PF-9 ~ RANGE DAY - YouTube

    This is not the amount of recoil I would expect to see to cause significant injury to someone. Even in one video where the individual isn't controlling the weapon well:

    Kel-Tec PF9 range day - YouTube

    It's still easily controlled, doesn't ever go flying out of the shooter's hands, and clearly doesn't expend enough force to give someone black eyes, a broken nose, and slam their head into the ground.

    Let's take another look at the laceration on his nose:



    It is off to one side, and maybe a quarter of an inch long. If it was a gun recoiling so hard that it slammed his head back into the sidewalk, why is the injury so small? Logically, if the weapon hit the very center of his nose, it would have stopped there... but the lacerations would be equilateral - there would be two lines from the rear sights on each side of his nose. If the weapon only hit one side, and was with such great force... It seems to me that the weapon would have kept travelling, creating a much larger laceration down the side of his nose and possibly even an eye injury if we're to believe the force of the recoil was enough to bloody his nose, cause significant swelling, and potentially slam his head into the ground.

    Let's not forget that his nose was, in fact, swollen and bloody:



    Now, onto the question about hollow points.

    It was asserted factually by someone that hollow points kill instantly or close to instantly. That they're meant for killing, and that someone who shoots someone with a hollow point round wishes to kill that person. It's also been stated numerous times that hollow points are used because they're so frangible.

    Let's dissect this one by one:

    Police almost exclusively use hollow point rounds because of the desire to not over-penetrate and their effectiveness at stopping the threat. However, I'm sure we are all aware that everyone the police shoots does not die. In fact, people have been hit multiple times by multiple police officers and still lived. The assertion that hollow points are some magical killer bullet that kills everyone instantly or close to instantly is patently false. Many factors go into death by gunshots, and a surprisingly large number of people live despite being shot.

    The second assertion is that they are meant for killing. This is pretty true. However, the assertion makes it seem as if all types of rounds (except LTL, of course) are not meant for killing. If you are using deadly force, you are beyond the point of trying to keep someone alive. The whole premise behind deadly force is that the person will possibly die. You don't just shoot someone to wound them. You don't use a round to defend yourself based on how well it doesn't stop a target.

    This leads into the third point - hollow point bullets expand inside the body. They aren't necessarily any more "frangible" than a regular fully-jacketed round. .223 rifle slugs are well-known for their frangibility and they're high-speed FMJ rounds. The point behind hollow point bullets is that they expend all of their force inside the body cavity/wound channel by expanding outward and mushrooming. This delivers a more devastating wound, depending on where the individual is hit, and also helps to prevent the round from exiting the body. Because all of the force is used up when the bullet mushrooms, the velocity of the round is greatly reduced when it enters the body and the threat of over-penetration and possibly hitting something you did not intend to hit is greatly lessened.

    In my opinion, using hollow points is vastly more responsible than using fully jacketed rounds. If you're using deadly force, the threat needs to be stopped - HPs help effect this. You also don't want to over-penetrate and hit someone or something you did not intend to hit - HPs win in this category again.


    .


    All in my opinion as someone that is very proficient with firearms, works in the industry, has shot everything from .22LR to .50BMG, regularly places in the top third of shooting competitions, and has a concealed carry permit.
    Well let's assume GZ is indeed lying on his back and TM is above him and the gun is 4 inches away from TM's chest. How far away from GZ face is it? Easily a recoil IMO
    When there is Justice - there is Peace.

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