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  1. #151
    I could imagine Keyes making caches just before search points. He probably had many just before the Canadian border his whole life. If we map a trip from smyrna maine to montreal (he admitted to visiting hoser hookers while living in maine) sometimes the road goes thru Norton Vt, where Lorraine had a cabin. Maybe something caught his eye while caching a stache. I seem to remember during the interviews that were published that keyes admitted to checking the glove box, and seeing a photo, to see if it was the right house. AND THEN, he gave the "ranch house, no pets,...no kids...."explanation. Always had the impression from the interviews that the curriers weren't really random.

  2. #152
    Join Date
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    central Georgia, USA
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    WA - Gilbert Mark Gilman, missing 6-22/24-2006, Olympic National Park, Thurston Co.

    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods View Post
    Promos for an upcoming TV special on Israel Keyes (see IK General Discussion thread) reveal that the special suggests Gilbert Gilman as a possible IK victim. I've gathered links for us to a little information about him and his disappearance (which is reported as on June 22 by some sources and June 24 by others):

    Charley Project:

    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_gilbert.html

    NAMUS:

    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22763/455


    Some archived articles at Porchlight International:

    http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t5856.htm


    http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/team...f-missi/nDrSp/



    Finally, this more recent article about another disappearance (Bryan Lee Johnston, in August 2013) at the park also has a good bit of info about Gilman:

    http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/ar...-national-park

    Quoting myself from awhile back to post this follow-up info/link:

    FBI comes up empty on new information on murders by former Neah Bay resident Israel Keyes

    ...Investigation Discovery Network's “Dark Minds” program had suggested in its April 2, 2014, installment that there was a link between Keyes and the June 24, 2006 disappearance of Gilbert Gilman, the head of policy and legislative affairs for the state Department of Retirement Systems.

    “That's something we could very easily rule out,” Goeden said.

    “We can concretely place [Keyes] somewhere else at that particular time.” ...
    more at: http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/ar...NEWS/302029967

  3. #153
    Yeah, seems like they rule out everyone as a possible victim. Almost like FBI made a deal with Keyes to keep his crimes secret. Sucks.
    Last edited by scoobydoobie; 03-02-2015 at 11:03 AM.

  4. #154
    ...because if they can "concretely place" him somewhere else on the day Gilman disappeared, Sat 6-24-06, then why is the FBI timeline of Keyes' whereabouts blank for that date? Where was he on 6-24-06 FBI? Why isnt there an entry? The timeline says on Thursday 6-22-06 Keyes traveled from Northern Washington to Northern Oregon to buy ATVs for work. About a 6 hour drive. So it makes sense that he probably left Neah bay Thursday morning and arrived in Oregon Thursday afternoon. He probably spent the night in Oregon and then brought the ATVs back the next day. Where else would he go with ATVs he bought for work? He was working in Neah Bay for the Makahs. So I infer he was probably in Neah Bay on the afternoon of 6-23-14, delivering the newly bought ATVs to his workplace. At this point he is only 160 miles from Staircase Ranger Station. The next day Gilman was last seen alive at Staircase. Am I wrong?

    Is Goeden the publisher of the timelines? It seems like Keyes moved to Alaska pretty soon after the Gilman murder. Did he commit this murder knowing he was soon moving out of state, or maybe he moved away afterwards because he was paranoid of being caught.
    At the end of the day i suppose im just speculating. Very few facts to play with here. I just think it is a little odd that there has really been no new information released after the initial Koenig-Currier information was released. And i remember during the interrogation tapes somebody (atty Kevin Fieldis?) telling Keyes that killers sometimes make confessions in a deal where the facts admitted are kept top secret. I feel like the FBI is keeping Keyes' dirty little secrets secret!
    Last edited by scoobydoobie; 03-04-2015 at 04:36 AM.

  5. #155
    As discussed before, Keyes may have murdered Thomas Wales. I reread some stuff and found another bit of info to support that theory. Below is a comment about Keyes, followed by a comment about Gidget(Wales killer, imo) and his letter.

    About Keyes:
    "Doll said Keyes was interested in suspense and crime movies and books"

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/alaska-seri...ry?id=17933675


    About Gidget:
    "It has a staccato-type rhythm that we would anticipate seeing from someone who is a fan of that genre, P.I. novels," said Shawn Van Slyke, an FBI supervisory special agent working on the case."

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1970208



    Also, I've been wondering if Keyes was truly a 'serial killer'. My understanding is serial killers repeat specific behaviors. But with Keyes it seems like he was a methodical - opportunist criminal. From the crimes they say he did it seems like he lived his everyday life but then would spend several days in a row on a crime spree out of town. Like a spree criminal, but organized and planned out at the same time. Burglarizing-kidnapping-raping-murdering-bank robbing in one stretch. Then back to everyday life. What made me think about that was the following from the first article I quoted:

    "his ideas were his own. He was very clear about that distinction. That mattered a lot to him."

    "He never identified himself as a serial killer," she said. "That was one of the things that he wanted very much, as this investigation progressed, to keep from being identified as."

    ps. I just realized keyes suicide note has some staccato style to it
    Last edited by scoobydoobie; 04-02-2015 at 07:43 AM.

  6. #156
    Expounding on my previous post script, I wasn't 100% what staccato meant, so I google'd and found some staccato poetry by Maia Szekeley:


    airplanes float
    unmoving in the sky
    tiny orbs of light
    like stars, flickering
    all those people
    going somewhere
    --
    i want to feel you with palms,
    and fingers, and fingertips,
    mouth too, lips




    Now here are some parts from the gidget letter that remind me of that style:

    "...Nice talking lady, I didn’t know her name, she called me, talked to me by name, and asked if I needed some money..."

    and

    "...The wife was out of town, I had no witnesses here, I was curious about who knew me so well. I used cash to pay for all my expenses to avoid an audit trail. No cell phone..."



    And now some staccato parts of Keyes suicide note:

    "Where will you go, you clever little worm, if you bleed your host dry?
    Back in your ride, the night is still young..."

    and

    "...Get in your big car, so you can get to work fast, on roads made of dinosaur bones. Punch in on the clock and sit on your ass, playing stupid ass games on your phone. Paper on your wall, says you got smarts..."


    Regardless of writing style, the lines "I used cash to pay for all my expenses to avoid an audit trail. No cell phone" remind me of how Keyes would do the same, or 'go dark', while commiting crimes .

    And the openning line, "OK, so I was broke and between jobs" I'm pretty sure at the time of the murder Keyes was between jobs too, after discharge from the Army but before the Makah tribe job. I wonder if Keyes left little clues, being a crime novel fan like he was.
    Just now i was looking at the picture of the gidget letter, notice that there are two stamps. I always thought that was weird. I thought the envelope probably only held one 8.5x11 piece of paper. I figured it was because the dude really wanted to ensure it wouldnt be rejected for insufficient postage. But that is stupid. He wouldn't have written so illegibly or placed the stamps so far offset from the side if he was so worried about delivery. There must be a reason. There are two stamps, two different vehicles. The one on the right is a motorized car. The one on the left is an unmotorized wagon. The postmark looks like tread marks. It looks like the wagon ran over the car. The stamps are probably offset from the side to make the postmark line up like this. And maybe the wagon tilted so the end of the post mark is in line with the rear of the wagon? Maybe a hidden anti - technology message? Wagon trumps car! Parts of his suicide note sounded like he was anti - technology, and according to himself he was raised amish.

    http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2006...lope_vegas.jpg

    Of course, I'm sure the feds can concretely place him in another, unnamed part of the country during Wales' murder and the letter mailing
    Last edited by scoobydoobie; 04-02-2015 at 08:41 AM.

  7. #157
    And if you look close after Gidget in the return address it looks like there is a faint postmark, where Gidget ' s last name would be. I had always thought that if it were Keyes that wrote it that gidget was a reference to Gidget Gein from the death metal band Marilyn Manson (or whatever u would call that music, idk). The musician Gidget Gein actually quit music back in the day and went to work for the medical examiner as a "bag boy". "Retreiving and cleaning up after the deceased" according to one site. Did the author put that mark there as a clue? Did the FBI white it out for investigative whatever integrity you call it? It does seem like there should be a last name, and now that I notice a faint postmark where it should be I'm intrigued.
    Furthermore, from the low resolution picture I have it seems like the faint postmark is only where the last name would be and not through Gidget like it would be if it was from transfer from a freshly inked letter. If that that is a faint mark I see, only in the space to the right of Gidget and above the charleston/chesterton/skeleton whatever word that is, then I would think he is indicating a surname, and the only Gidget I know with a surname ain't that surfer girl.

    And on second thought, maybe the postmarks are supposed to look like speed lines, with the wagon (author) outrunning the car (feds)
    Last edited by scoobydoobie; 04-02-2015 at 01:33 PM.

  8. #158
    Join Date
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    Location
    denver
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    Crossing over from the general discussion, this is the post I was referencing about two missing women in WA: (posted by WyomingSkyAngel in October 2014)

    I also strongly suspect he is responsible for the disappearance of 2 females who disappeared in a state park in Washington State in either 2006 or 2007. I remember being deeply alarmed about this because I lived in NW Montana at the time & was worried about my personal safety.
    I realize this MIGHT be referring to Mary Cooper and Susanna Stodden, but I'm looking at other options because a.) they didn't "disappear", they were murdered; and b.) if the poster was concerned for her safety it suggests that this may be something that occurred in the eastern part of WA (i.e. close to NW Montana), rather than the western part, where the mother and daughter were killed.

    I'm confused on this one though because I lived in Seattle in 06 and early 07 (coincidentally, my time in Seattle was actually VERY close to the entire time Keyes was living and active in the region--September 01 to I think February 07--but whatever) and I don't remember hearing anything about such a thing, whereas Mary Cooper and Susanna Stodden were huge news. Though to be fair I don't remember hearing about Del Sample or Stephen Mason either, and only vaguely remember Gilbert Gilman.

    But I can't find a thing about anyone disappearing in WA that matches what's been suggested above.


    As a sort of side note, I feel like based on Keyes' statements and the discussion about the eastern/western districts that there HAS to be a victim in the eastern portion. I don't believe everything he had to say, and I know it's dangerous to pick and choose, but I do believe him on the Ellensburg piece.

    On that, it would make sense that Ellensburg was a calculated reference point, and if that's the case it makes Gregory Brown a very strong possible victim (I know he's been mentioned at least a couple times on here). I don't like Keyes for MacKenzie Cowell for sort of similar reasons to why I don't really think he killed Tom Wales, although, as with Wales, I sure wouldn't rule him out entirely on that.

    I do think there's a fair chance that Kate Huether was a victim, but I'm pretty sure (although not 100%) that Skamania falls in the western region.

    I wonder if maybe the "couple" in question could have been immigrants (possibly illegal) from the Yakima area. This is nothing but a vague/random consideration, and it's based on nothing but a total absence of other known possibilities for the couple, plus the Ellensburg reference point and Yakima being an area just east (or, technically, southeast) of Ellensburg that is a medium-sized city with a massive immigrant population that could easily disappear with no reports whatsoever.

    Thoughts?

  9. #159
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    75
    If you guys are interested, I have a list of missing persons from circa 2001-2007 that could be potential Keyes victims. All are from the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana.

    2001:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...bank_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/franks_jason.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tolley_kyle.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/frick_steven.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/beck_janice.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hoopes_amber.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/larsen_gary.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...lemtsehay.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/engle_nicole.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/o/ocain_rex.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hyatt_eugene.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/arias_aqueda.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4896/0
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22341/4
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/11874/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/21860/9


    2002:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...rt_samuel.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...i_michael.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...le_brendt.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/davis2_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...h_kenneth.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barnes_celia.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._nicholas.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...uson_anne.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mckoen_jerry.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...aid_karen.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lee_ken.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/z/zakia_shanaz.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...oks_debra.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...on_howard.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/benjamin_jay.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7304/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7265/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7697/3
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7308/4
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25072/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/15253/6
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7742/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/21965/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25657/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25658/3
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20370/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25594/10
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/19589/11


    2003:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/juarez_sofia.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...s_michael.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...r_darlene.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/gray_cameron.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burke_casey.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ez_carlos.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_raymond.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sells_scott.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...aw_austin.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._fernando.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ey_donald.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jung_dong.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/theis_allen.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25833/0
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/2874/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4527/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25829/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25667/0


    2004:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/finck_gary.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...in_joshua.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...christine.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._giovanna.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cawston_tina.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...reva_olga.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ck_thomas.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lei_jenny.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ht_shelby.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...hman_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/pennie_glenn.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...y_douglas.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ss_jeromy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/bilet_tor.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._kimberly.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...s_jessica.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...nd_august.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ard_ahren.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._kathleen.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/18380/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22339/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12738/11
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25703/3
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/2114/4


    2005:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/fry_donald.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...s_deborah.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...le_delmar.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barton_brian.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/marl_cynthia.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sloan_ellen.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/dehoop_wendy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kuich_pamela.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ndez_luis.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._lawrence.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...on_roxann.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...y_valerie.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/elkins_kevin.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jung_roger.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_patrick.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/carroll_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...gh_glenda.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/stephens_roy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/andrews_john.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ist_kevin.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/o/ohana_lyn.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/23370/6
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/23090/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22746/9
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7293/10
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/18350/11
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25596/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/18936/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20361/5
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/25697/7
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20042/8
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7513/12


    2006:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...er_joseph.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...s_russell.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tademy_cris.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...mule_levi.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_jeffery.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...out_sandy.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/d/duna_iulian.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_patrick.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ph_ernest.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...son_brian.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_stephen.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...n_gilbert.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...katherine.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...anda_jose.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/mclean_james.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/white_caleta.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/adame_laura.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...ke_samuel.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...gsun_seth.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/...salvatore.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22335/1
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13826/10
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22338/11
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22578/0
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12054/2
    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7998/5
    http://www.nampn.org/cases/lee_alicia_renee.html


    2007:
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/kempf_darrel.html
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burt_jeramy.html


    https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/22393/0
    Last edited by cgon4872; 10-09-2015 at 11:08 PM.

  10. #160
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    75
    I personally think that if the "couple" in question were indeed immigrants, the chances of them being reported missing are extremely low. I've looked though almost all missing person reports from 2001-2007 in the western United States and none fit the criteria you describe. I also feel that if a victim wasn't reported missing, Keyes would have felt obligated to tell LE about it. I don't have any way to prove (or disprove) that, but it's a hunch I've always had.

    My favorite for the couple victim has always been Kami Vollendroff and Eugene Hyatt who went missing from Depoe Bay, Oregon on November 21, 2001. They went missing from Boiler Bay state park, but LE believes they both drowned and the case has pretty much stalled at that theory.


  11. #161
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    Location
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    Right, that was my thinking behind the immigrant possibility--it is unknown because it was not reported.

    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about Keyes feeling obligated to tell LE about unreported victims, because as far as I know there's nothing about him ever saying anything to that effect (aside from, depending on your definition of "unreported", the Curriers). I have nothing to prove or disprove the contrary to what you're suggesting though, and mine is weak even as "hunches" go, so I'm open to whatever.

    In any case though, I'm with you no doubt on Kami and Eugene. If we're looking at the known disappearances in the region, to me that is the most likely couple for sure.

  12. #162
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    I'm very interested, and it's awesome having them compiled in sequence, thank you. I've read the Charley Project but I've never had a list with both location and timing together. I'll go through it in the near future.

    One from the list that sticks out that maybe doesn't directly fit in but that I've had on the radar for a while as "suspicious" is Seth Morningsun (10/19/06).

  13. #163
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    So apparently I was WAY wrong about Seth Morningsun, apparently he is alive! Wildness.

    http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-man-ar...rsuit/34885640

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Iwatchingeye View Post
    I can't find a working link to the news story posted previously on Maura Murray's WS Thread but it has IK running a marathon June 2006 in Olympia WA. When I try searching of course the first million suggestions are of the recent story and correction to the recent story. I don't know if this is good enough,

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8188279"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8188279[/ame]

    It is post 182 by OldSteve

    I have read that Gilbert was in the area for a marathon as well. I remember very early in this story if you put in a search for Isreal Keyes marathon their was a page listing the people who placed and what place and he was listed (wish I had saved). Again I'm not sure this is within posting guideline or not.
    Link to the site, just enter his name:
    https://www.athlinks.com/Result/Sear...Israel%20Keyes

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