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  1. #31
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    And I agree with those of you who think he had more than 11 victims. He was simply traveling around TOO much to only have had 11.

    He said he had victims in 10 states. We know he killed the Curriers, so that is 2 in VT. That implies that he would only have have had one person per state beyond that. Well didn't he say he killed a couple and buried them in Washington? That would not be consistent with only 11 killed in 10 states. And, of course, he was basically silent on those killed in other countries (Canada? Mexico? Belize? El Salvadore?, where he went on cruises?).

    Just sayin'.

    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    Therefore, send not to know, for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    ~John Dunne


    #TeamCivilization

  2. #32
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    I just finished watching the last video and wonder if the photo he asked to see again at the 1 hr 11 minute mark was of items found either in the boat that was being discussed or at the NY property? The female talks about gun parts right after he looks at the photo but earlier they had been talking about a knife. Did he have a secret compartment in the boat or a cache hidden on the property? Was he was studying the photo to see if that area had been disturbed and realized he was being lied to and that LE had way more info on him than he thought they did? Could the gun parts be traced as belonging to a possible victim from another state?
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~Aristotle~

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by puppyraiser View Post
    I just finished watching the last video and wonder if the photo he asked to see again at the 1 hr 11 minute mark was of items found either in the boat that was being discussed or at the NY property? The female talks about gun parts right after he looks at the photo but earlier they had been talking about a knife. Did he have a secret compartment in the boat or a cache hidden on the property? Was he was studying the photo to see if that area had been disturbed and realized he was being lied to and that LE had way more info on him than he thought they did? Could the gun parts be traced as belonging to a possible victim from another state?
    In the FBI interview videos there is a little confusion over the knife. At first an investigator says he thinks they found a knife on the boat (one of the two Keyes talked about, may be linked to WA victims) but then later on in the video he says they did not find a knife, and it wasn't on "the list". It was sorta confusing but I wouldn't be suprised if they did find the knife and just didn't want IK to know, fumbled in interview, IDK. I don't believe LE was being totally truthful with him, I believe they were trying to trap him, catch him in a lie, etc. Who knows. *sigh*

  4. #34
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    Another thought..... as someone who Geocaches, I wonder if IK marked his caches as waypoints on an online map, much like Geocaches are marked on Groundspeak. Could he have been a member of that site and entered the locations to keep track of them but never published them for the general public to find? He'd have a listing in his profile but none of them would have been active.

    I've been looking through the area he hid the Essex cache and if the location is correct (Susie Wilson Road and Route 15 Essex Vermont) there are at least 11 traditional caches and numerous other multi's (which don't mark the final location precisely as you have to solve a series of clues first to get the final) in and around that Nature Area. The way he hid that orange bucket is very much like we would hide a cache. Surprised no Geocachers stumbled upon it while looking for a spot to hide their own Cache.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~Aristotle~

  5. #35
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    LE are very keen on missing person cases as opposed to cold murder cases.

    http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/index.html

  6. #36
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    cemeteries

    I really don't know where it would be best to post this -- might be more helpful in the "region" threads, where people are actively sleuthing for possible victims among missing persons, but I wouldn't know which "region" thread to choose, so ... posting here.

    Remember how IK said that, back when he "was smart", he let the victims come to him, in remote areas? bbm:

    ...“Investigators believe Keyes did not know any of his victims prior to their abductions,” the FBI news release said. “He described several remote locations that he frequented to look for victims – parks, campgrounds, trailheads, cemeteries, boating areas, etc. ..."
    http://q13fox.com/2013/08/12/fbi-rel...blic-for-help/

    Just wondering whether he may have actually taken someone from or near a cemetery? Any persons reported missing under those circumstances?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backwoods View Post
    I really don't know where it would be best to post this -- might be more helpful in the "region" threads, where people are actively sleuthing for possible victims among missing persons, but I wouldn't know which "region" thread to choose, so ... posting here.

    Remember how IK said that, back when he "was smart", he let the victims come to him, in remote areas? bbm:

    http://q13fox.com/2013/08/12/fbi-rel...blic-for-help/

    Just wondering whether he may have actually taken someone from or near a cemetery? Any persons reported missing under those circumstances?
    Backwoods, imo, IK would have prolly focused on historical or rural cemeteries which would only get scant media coverage in the local rag. Due to statistics, lack of resources, etc., many, if not most rural LEAs would perceive the perp to be a local and the case would eventually fade with time..imo..

    I do remember where multiple murders were committed in a TN cemetery, but can't remember which one..

    While sleuthing the Mickey Shunick(LA-2012) abduction, whose body was located in a shallow grave in a historical cemetery.
    Kenneth Allen McDuff; “The Broomstick Killer”, was discussed several times on the WS thread.

    McDuff and Henry Lee Lucas; Otis Toole's luver, are both buried in the Captain Joe Byrd Cemetery, TX. Since it is verified that IK studied other serial killers prior. Imo, he would have been familiar with both of these notorious serial killers.

    http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairba...ve_robbing.php

    Texas' Serial Killers: Someone's Selling The Dirt From Their Graves On eBay Online

    This first came to light when Andy Kahan, the world's leading expert on murderbilia (he literally coined the phrase) noticed that a well-known dealer of murderbilia was trying to sell bags of dirt from the graves of serial killers Henry Lee Lucas and Kenneth McDuff. Both are buried at Captain Joe Byrd Cemetery, which is owned by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice
    __________________________________________________ ________-

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_qyj7_CkXg"]Kenneth McDuff - Serial Killer - Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

  8. #38
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    I find it interesting that IK's mom and siblings are part of a religious cult the Church of Wells outside Lufkin, Texas in Wells, Texas

  9. #39
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    IK made a point of saying that he did all his" dirty deeds "away from home so that he would not be a suspect. This apparently changed after his attack on SK in his home town.

    Could it be that he is lying to protect his wife and child and family/work or anyone/thing else that was important to him?

    They say sk's usually begin first kills close to home then as confidence builds, they move outward...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotr View Post
    IK made a point of saying that he did all his" dirty deeds "away from home so that he would not be a suspect. This apparently changed after his attack on SK in his home town.

    Could it be that he is lying to protect his wife and child and family/work or anyone/thing else that was important to him?

    They say sk's usually begin first kills close to home then as confidence builds, they move outward...
    dotr, he stated to investigators he only meant to rob the coffee stand, he was not planning a murder that evening????...but when he saw Samantha, he talks of how the urge just took over and of course we all know the outcome

    Keyes was not married, he lived with a lady and he had his daughter in this home.....he moved to Alaska in 2007 so technically speaking this was not his home...I personally feel Keyes always felt that Wash. State was his home and I believe that is where the 1st victim will be found....but also he told about going to one park in Alaska and scouting out 2 younger people parked in that park in a car, then a policeman drove up to them to tell them the park was closed, he confessed he started to take out all 3, but then another back-up officer came up also and he thought to himself "This could have got very ugly" he got on his bike and rode away that night, but also confessed he had a cache in another park area several miles from this park...so he was planning on more killings in Alaska............


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshark View Post
    I find it interesting that IK's mom and siblings are part of a religious cult the Church of Wells outside Lufkin, Texas in Wells, Texas
    Hello Bullshark, if I am remembering correctly he has 1 brother, 3 sisters and his Mom that belong to this church....Personally I do not know about it being called a cult, I know they must live much like the Amish because where they was located became to populated by subdivisions, therefore they sought out another isolated location and that being in Wells Texas, I'm sure they live off the land since on the church website, the 2 sisters are doing well making home-made soap of various scents, personally I would not call it a cult, I have read the website and some beliefs are such as mine as far as being saved and being baptized but from there I feel like they have similar beliefs of the Amish in not partaking in things of the world, keeping to themselves, no outside communication and etc.

    But Keyes has 3 brothers that seem like really nice men...<modsnip>
    Last edited by bessie; 09-10-2013 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Sleuthing the personal social media pages of family and friends is not allowed.

  12. #42
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    We know what we know about IK from what told to his interigators and from that, what they chose to disclose. He has painted a picture of himself as a serial killer who kiled for the thrill of it but was so cunning that even with all the "hints" he gave, most of his kills will never be figured out.

    I am suggesting a "revisionist" theory. I suspect that the Curriers were his first and they were some kind of finacial scam; not a thrill kill at all. SK was pretty much a rape but he was trying to make some money off of it (and botched the job pretty badly; impulsive, amateur stuff).

    From what I can see, from the time he got out of the army in 2001 and 9/06 when he moved to Alaska, he had a steady job, he did the sort of modest traveling that someone with steady work in the building trades could be expected to afford and he did not attract any attention as having a standard of living that exceeded his income. Conclusion: he was not engaging in significant property crime activity. Was he going around killing random people? We have no evidence that he did but there are plenty of murdered/missing people that might or might not fit.

    Beginning 9/06, he moves to Alaska and everything changes. He starts travelling all over the lower 48 as well as foreign holliday destinations. He is spending so little time in Alaska that there is no way he could build up a "contracting" business and earn enough to support such travel. He was off commiting crimes (or spending his ill gotten gains on pleasure travel) and he was only going back to Alaska to "lay low" and perhaps do enough self employment to launder his money.

    Robbing banks is a likely activity. He may have figured out that bank robbery is pretty risky and his luck would run out eventually. Perhaps he was looking for other angles. The Curriers may have been an extortion attempt; perhaps one of them was intened to be a hostage while the other embezzeled from an employer or looted their own bank account. These kinds of capers usually don't involve killing anyone. Something went wrong.

    I think he was running short of money, afraid that he might be linked to the Curriers and more than a little desparate. SK may have been a chance to act on a fantasy he had always had while he prepared to live on the lam. He figured out that if got arrested and was facing Life or the DP, he would try to convince LE that he was a big time Serial Killer rather that a second rate bank robber/rapist with a few murder charges to back them up. . Playing games with the Alaska DA's seemed a lot more fun than sitting in a jail cell waiting for a chance to snuff himself before he was shipped off the Death Row.

  13. #43
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    Sleuthing IK's family and friends through their personal social media pages is not allowed. Discussing IK's background, i.e., childhood, family life, and the environment in which he was raised, is allowed IF the information is gleaned through MSM or the FBI. I've even set up a thread for that purpose.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220893"]ISRAEL KEYES: Profile and Background - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
    PODCAST ROW

    WEBSLEUTHS ON FACEBOOK
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    Always give generously of yourself to support your beliefs. And when you're knocked down, give more.




  14. #44
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    hey, kemo,

    I had some similar thoughts so I listened to all of the interviews (incl. the audio-only ones) many times over until the shock value was gone and I could pay attention to the cadence of his voice around certain kinds of information.

    I think there is some obfuscation/misdirection as well, but I do think there were earlier murders.

    here's what I doubt:

    -- the whole long story about lying in wait and shooting the couple, then also the trooper. Something is "off" about it. He told that story in the first interview after he educated himself about federal death penalty qualification. Violence against LE/judges/politicians is a huge factor in death penalty recommendations. He also threw in a gratuitous reference to his "white supremacist roots. I totally don't buy it. At no time did he show any overt or suppressed racism nor hostility toward LE. I think he made up the whole cop incident.

    -- something is "off" about the Currier murder, as well. I even though of murder for hire. I am very doubtful about the "random" claim. I do believe he compulsively breaks and enters and burglarizes. I wondered if he had broken into their cabin (they had one in the woods upstate) either a few days before or in 2011 and saw their address. He stressed that the Curriers were random, picked for the layout of their house only after he tried for a single guy in a parking lot. It seemed to mean a bit too much to him that they be seen as random rather than stalked/targeted, perhaps because he did not want to be lumped in with peeping tom/stalker types.

    -- the two murders of women we know about included rape/strangulation. but both of the men he admitted to killing put up a fight and he hit one over the head and shot the other, before he had meant to kill them. So I was very curious about whether he *really* had ever targeted/killed a man, not as part of a couple.

    -- I believe he killed someone in 2011 and buried the body in upstate NY. This has to do with the kill-bank robbery sequence pattern I found believable and substantiated at least in the SK case. In addition, his voice when he says there is a body in NY, after a very very long pause and a certain reluctant mouth-noise he makes right before giving up something major. He sounds the same way as when he has told verified stories, including the gun location, arson, and tupper lake bank robbery.

    -- I find an early and unbroken history of house break-ins, robberies, and arson very believable. Because of this, and the intensity of the murders we do have confirmation of, I think there were other murders prior. But I think they might have had some shame associated with them. He really really does not want to give details, and not just for strategic/negotiating reasons, imo. Perhaps they were prostitutes, drug addicts, homeless -- sort of tawdry, un-daring murders.

    -- Aside from the NY body, none of the other 4-7 murders the FBI believes he committed were originally revealed by him on any publicly released interview. Nor was the "Ted Bundy" admiration, the claim he could not wait to get out of the army to kill, or the narrative of the 1998 rape. All of that info is second-hand, from LE, but obviously based on interviews because none of it came from independent physical or eyewitness evidence. The thing is, I would really like to hear his actual words, and how the interview was going, because I tend to doubt the way LE frames the events (based on their statements to the media versus when you listen to the full interviews).

    -- Details of the "Washington murders" and that there was one couple and 2 separate single-person murders, seem to originate not from his statements, but from some letters that prison officials took from his cell. Who this writing was intended for, and whether it was truthful or meant to misdirect, I am not sure. He seemed slightly amused when he said he should have realized they'd take the writing, whether this was wry defeat or totally disingenuous I couldn't tell.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    We know what we know about IK from what told to his interigators and from that, what they chose to disclose. He has painted a picture of himself as a serial killer who kiled for the thrill of it but was so cunning that even with all the "hints" he gave, most of his kills will never be figured out.

    I am suggesting a "revisionist" theory. I suspect that the Curriers were his first and they were some kind of finacial scam; not a thrill kill at all. SK was pretty much a rape but he was trying to make some money off of it (and botched the job pretty badly; impulsive, amateur stuff).

    From what I can see, from the time he got out of the army in 2001 and 9/06 when he moved to Alaska, he had a steady job, he did the sort of modest traveling that someone with steady work in the building trades could be expected to afford and he did not attract any attention as having a standard of living that exceeded his income. Conclusion: he was not engaging in significant property crime activity. Was he going around killing random people? We have no evidence that he did but there are plenty of murdered/missing people that might or might not fit.

    Beginning 9/06, he moves to Alaska and everything changes. He starts travelling all over the lower 48 as well as foreign holliday destinations. He is spending so little time in Alaska that there is no way he could build up a "contracting" business and earn enough to support such travel. He was off commiting crimes (or spending his ill gotten gains on pleasure travel) and he was only going back to Alaska to "lay low" and perhaps do enough self employment to launder his money.

    Robbing banks is a likely activity. He may have figured out that bank robbery is pretty risky and his luck would run out eventually. Perhaps he was looking for other angles. The Curriers may have been an extortion attempt; perhaps one of them was intened to be a hostage while the other embezzeled from an employer or looted their own bank account. These kinds of capers usually don't involve killing anyone. Something went wrong.

    I think he was running short of money, afraid that he might be linked to the Curriers and more than a little desparate. SK may have been a chance to act on a fantasy he had always had while he prepared to live on the lam. He figured out that if got arrested and was facing Life or the DP, he would try to convince LE that he was a big time Serial Killer rather that a second rate bank robber/rapist with a few murder charges to back them up. . Playing games with the Alaska DA's seemed a lot more fun than sitting in a jail cell waiting for a chance to snuff himself before he was shipped off the Death Row.

    Excellent post Kemo!!

    Your post is very well thought out and you have raised many good points.

    I do tend to differ in terms of my opinion though. As per the part of your quote that I bolded, I have to say that I thought that IK did an incredible amount of traveling in the years leading up to the Curriers' murder.

    Maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but in 2007 he was in WA, AK, CA, WA, UT, WA, AK, IN, WA and back to AK. That doesn't count the drive up to AK through BC and the Yukon, for his move.

    For 2008, it was AK, TX/LA/AL, WA, AK, UT, CA, AK, WA, ND, AZ, CA, WA, MA, WA, AK, HI, Mexico. I don't find this 'typical' travel for the average joe. How much would all of these flights cost?? And only a couple of months later, it was off to CA again!

    I really believe that IK had grown restless by then, perhaps 'stimulated' by his need to kill.

    I still believe that he killed more than 11 people. I think he was keeping his cards close to his chest as he wanted to have something to negotiate with. Without undisclosed information, he had no power.

    Let's face it, these intelligent serial killers are all about power.

    JMO.
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    Therefore, send not to know, for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    ~John Dunne


    #TeamCivilization

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