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  1. #1
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    Angry Child gun deaths occurs roughly twice as often as publicly reported.

    According to a front-page New York Times report ("Children and Guns: The Hidden Toll") published Sunday, accidental child gun deaths occur roughly twice as often as publicly reported.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us...l.html?hp&_r=0


    The National Rifle Association cited the lower official numbers this year in a fact sheet opposing “safe storage” laws, saying children were more likely to be killed by falls, poisoning or environmental factors — an incorrect assertion if the actual number of accidental firearm deaths is significantly higher.

    Because of maneuvering in Congress by the gun lobby and its allies, firearms have also been exempted from regulation by the Consumer Product Safety Commission since its inception.

    This is a pretty damning report. It'll be interesting (and predictable) to see how the NRA spins this one....

  2. #2
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    "When children are killed in unintentional shootings, medical examiners and coroners classify many as homicides, or even suicides."

    The entire article is disturbing and yet worth reading, but for those who don't want to read down to where the undercount is explained, see above. "Homicide" just means killed by another person; it doesn't specify intention or lack thereof.

    What is perhaps most disturbing is that California has 4 times the population, but fewer than half the childhood gun deaths (accidental or intentional or total) as Georgia or North Carolina. I wonder why...
    Last edited by Nova; 09-29-2013 at 06:50 PM.

  3. #3
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    The rifle association’s lobbying arm recently posted on its Web site a claim that adult criminals who mishandle firearms — as opposed to law-abiding gun owners — are responsible for most fatal accidents involving children. But The Times’s review found that a vast majority of cases revolved around children’s access to firearms, with the shooting either self-inflicted or done by another child.
    The above statement seems quite believeable and the article's rebuttal makes no sense. Firearms that are "mishandled" by criminals includes leaving them around, getting high and dropping ones pants (with gun) on the floor, leaving loaded firearms around small children etc.... The criminal element "mishandles" the firearms and then the children in the house end up firing them.

    It happens once or twice a year in the nearby (high crime) city. Half the time the scumbags "hide" the gun and then call 911 to report the shooting as if no one will ask what happened to it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonya610 View Post
    The above statement seems quite believeable and the article's rebuttal makes no sense. Firearms that are "mishandled" by criminals includes leaving them around, getting high and dropping ones pants (with gun) on the floor, leaving loaded firearms around small children etc.... The criminal element "mishandles" the firearms and then the children in the house end up firing them.

    It happens once or twice a year in the nearby (high crime) city. Half the time the scumbags "hide" the gun and then call 911 to report the shooting as if no one will ask what happened to it.
    Considering the source, I also would focus on the definitions of "mishandling" and "children," especially since a lot of gun related deaths are linked to gang violence with children getting caught in the crossfire or hit by random shots through walls, doors and window. And a lot of the gangbangers are, technically, still "children."

    jmo

  5. #5
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    The thread title is a little misleading, isn't it? It says that child gun deaths are more common than reported but what the article says is that accidental gun deaths are more common than reported. Whether classified as a homicide or an accident it's still a gun death so this issue shouldn't change the number of child gun deaths altogether. I think those things are in different statistical categories. Gunshot wounds are counted under causes of death and accidents, suicides, homicides are counted under manner of death.

    I don't care if you're a gangbanger or a law abiding, card holding member of the holy saints; if you let toddlers play with your loaded gun it makes you a criminal in my book, and should a child die, you're as good as a child murderer.

    There is just no excuse for this to happen, ever.

    In all, fewer than 20 states have enacted laws to hold adults criminally liable if they fail to store guns safely, enabling children to access them.
    Yeah, whatever, it's just children, totally disposable. Whyever should adults be required to behave responsibly?

    Human beings being such selfish creatures, you'd think that everybody who needs guns laying around readily accessible to "protect themselves" would also give a thought or two to the fact that it could be them that the toddler kills with the gun that lays around.
    Last edited by Donjeta; 09-30-2013 at 04:58 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
    The thread title is a little misleading, isn't it? It says that child gun deaths are more common than reported but what the article says is that accidental gun deaths are more common than reported. Whether classified as a homicide or an accident it's still a gun death so this issue shouldn't change the number of child gun deaths altogether. I think those things are in different statistical categories. Gunshot wounds are counted under causes of death and accidents, suicides, homicides are counted under manner of death.

    I don't care if you're a gangbanger or a law abiding, card holding member of the holy saints; if you let toddlers play with your loaded gun it makes you a criminal in my book, and should a child die, you're as good as a child murderer.

    There is just no excuse for this to happen, ever.



    Yeah, whatever, it's just children, totally disposable. Whyever should adults be required to behave responsibly?

    Human beings being such selfish creatures, you'd think that everybody who needs guns laying around readily accessible to "protect themselves" would also give a thought or two to the fact that it could be them that the toddler kills with the gun that lays around.
    It's not misleading. We are given statistics on gun deaths. The issue is that the deaths are not being reported as accidental, they are being reported as homicide. So when the NRA and it's minions bleat about how much safer everyone and their dog would supposedly be if we were all armed to the teeth, their bogus statistics can hide the fact that double the amount of children are being killed by "responsible" gun owners than have been previously reported. It's common sense that having a gun in your home with a child is a recipe for disaster, and no amount of spin or propaganda by the NRA changes that. But money speaks louder than children's lives, so carry on NRA, carry on....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonya610 View Post
    The above statement seems quite believeable and the article's rebuttal makes no sense. Firearms that are "mishandled" by criminals includes leaving them around, getting high and dropping ones pants (with gun) on the floor, leaving loaded firearms around small children etc.... The criminal element "mishandles" the firearms and then the children in the house end up firing them.

    It happens once or twice a year in the nearby (high crime) city. Half the time the scumbags "hide" the gun and then call 911 to report the shooting as if no one will ask what happened to it.
    No. The point is that the "accidental" gun deaths of children from gun shots not inflicted during what is considered to be a criminal act are being misreported or under represented as homicides, versus accidental gun deaths. Unfortunately, the perpetrators of these "accidental" deaths typically aren't prosecuted and killing a child due to a gun owner's negligence (not in the legal sense of the word but in the literal sense) isn't considered a criminal act. So the NRA can further misrepresent their propaganda by claiming that guns in the home make us safer, never mind that double the number of children than previously thought are being killed by them. The whole "responsible gun owner" becomes even more of an oxymoron.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by animlzrule View Post
    It's not misleading. We are given statistics on gun deaths. The issue is that the deaths are not being reported as accidental, they are being reported as homicide. So when the NRA and it's minions bleat about how much safer everyone and their dog would supposedly be if we were all armed to the teeth, their bogus statistics can hide the fact that double the amount of children are being killed by "responsible" gun owners than have been previously reported. It's common sense that having a gun in your home with a child is a recipe for disaster, and no amount of spin or propaganda by the NRA changes that. But money speaks louder than children's lives, so carry on NRA, carry on....
    Yes, I got all that and I agree with you. But your headline doesn't say that, it says that children's gun deaths, regardless of the accidental nature or lack thereof or the perceived responsible nature of the gun owners, are twice as common as reported. I don't think the statistics can be so careless as to lose half the children who died.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonya610 View Post
    Do you realize gun sales have skyrocketed during the last year? And the NRA was NOT the driving force behind sales! The government was! I have bought three in the last 7 months, just about everyone I know here that didn't have an AR has since purchased one.

    The more potentially "banned" weapons that are in the hands of the public the less likely there will EVER be a ban in free states.

    Many believe Obama is the best gun salesman in the world! I believe they are right!
    BBM. Of course they are. They propagandize to the fearful and paranoid, and knowingly use false statistics to promote their whole "responsible" gun owner trope. There is no movement to abolish the 2nd amendment in this country, there never was, and yet the NRA continues to talk about "doing away with the 2nd amendment". If people want to give their money to the gun industry, it's their right, but let's not pretend the NRA cares about anything other than making money. And they make that money at the expense of children's lives. The fact that gun sales have "skyrocketed" is a sad commentary on the gullibility of a certain segment of society. I don't know anyone that has a handgun. But getting back to the point of the story, children are being killed in far greater numbers by "responsible" gun owners, and it's not being reported. If we're not going to make it possible for children to live safely in their own homes, at least we should be getting the statistics right so their stories can be told.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by animlzrule View Post
    If people want to give their money to the gun industry, it's their right, but let's not pretend the NRA cares about anything other than making money.
    The NRA is a lobbying group who's sole purpose is to defend MY gun rights. That is why I send them money, that is why millions of other Americans send them money.

    They reflect the will of the gun owners in the U.S. I don't want the NRA to be "reasonable" I want them to fight tooth and nail to protect my rights. The other side isn't "reasonable" and anyone with common sense realizes that we should not be "reasonable" either. I don't want the NRA to give an inch.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
    I don't care if you're a gangbanger or a law abiding, card holding member of the holy saints; if you let toddlers play with your loaded gun it makes you a criminal in my book, and should a child die, you're as good as a child murderer.

    There is just no excuse for this to happen, ever.



    Yeah, whatever, it's just children, totally disposable. Whyever should adults be required to behave responsibly?

    Human beings being such selfish creatures, you'd think that everybody who needs guns laying around readily accessible to "protect themselves" would also give a thought or two to the fact that it could be them that the toddler kills with the gun that lays around.
    Agreed, but you can't outlaw accidents and you can't outlaw stupid.
    This article wasn't written in the hopes of reducing the accidental deaths of children. It uses children to advance the anti-gun agenda. IMO.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackerSam View Post
    Agreed, but you can't outlaw accidents and you can't outlaw stupid.
    This article wasn't written in the hopes of reducing the accidental deaths of children. It uses children to advance the anti-gun agenda. IMO.
    You can't outlaw accidents and you can't outlaw stupid but you CAN outlaw irresponsible storing of dangerous items. That is not an accident, it's a crime (or should be.) Not just guns, for that matter. There are regulations as to how you're supposed to handle and store explosives and many dangerous machines to ensure safety, and laws that point out that you shouldn't carelessly let children shoot each other with your guns exist in many places in the world. It's been done and those societies did not collapse because a little bit of common sense was introduced in the legislation.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donjeta View Post
    You can't outlaw accidents and you can't outlaw stupid but you CAN outlaw irresponsible storing of dangerous items. That is not an accident, it's a crime (or should be.) Not just guns, for that matter. There are regulations as to how you're supposed to handle and store explosives and many dangerous machines to ensure safety, and laws that point out that you shouldn't carelessly let children shoot each other with your guns exist in many places in the world. It's been done and those societies did not collapse because a little bit of common sense was introduced in the legislation.
    You're not going to find out it was irresponsibly stored until after someone's been hurt. Laws don't prevent.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackerSam View Post
    You're not going to find out it was irresponsibly stored until after someone's been hurt. Laws don't prevent.
    Well, you never know. Some people might put their guns away because they want to obey the law or avoid getting fined or because they just get a clue. And those who don't can at least be held accountable later when their negligence has killed someone.

    Do you think all traffic laws should be got rid of because the same exact argument applies there? Not everybody is going to obey traffic regulations, some drunk people will no doubt drive unsafe vehicles too fast, ignoring stop signs while talking on their cell phones. Should we just shrug and say, no point outlawing that behavior because laws don't prevent all accidents, let's just let them continue the irresponsibility and not even try to hold them accountable for their actions? Should we not worry about outlawing murder and assault because laws don't seem to be preventing all of them and often you only find out about people's criminal tendencies after someone has been hurt ?

    Of course not.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrackerSam View Post
    Agreed, but you can't outlaw accidents and you can't outlaw stupid.
    This article wasn't written in the hopes of reducing the accidental deaths of children. It uses children to advance the anti-gun agenda. IMO.
    No, this article was written to show further proof that far more people, children included, are killed by guns in "accidental" incidents than are ever reported, thereby giving lie to the promotion by the NRA that having guns in the home makes one safer. Having guns in your home doesn't make you or your children safer, but it sure makes the NRA richer.

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