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  1. #1
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    Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#3

    Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Meredith Kercher Murder discussion. As you know Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito's convictions were overturned by the court of appeals in Italy. Judge Hellman has released his motivation report, which other sleuthers have tirelessly worked on translating into English.

    http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/

    Kimster granted permission to reopen this discussion and as we discuss this report and its implications, it is VERY and EXTREMELY important that we adhere to the TOS of this forum. I cannot emphasize this enough because this is a very heated topic, and disrespect for other posters is not tolerated on websleuths.

    Let's all be on our best behavior!
    Last edited by Coldpizza; 10-21-2013 at 08:33 AM.
    "If Jodi's lips are moving...if her pen is moving...then she lie, lie, lies!"

  2. #2
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    The Appeals Motivation report in Italian:

    http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/IIP_-_Hellmann.pdf

    The appeals experts' report:

    http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/
    "If Jodi's lips are moving...if her pen is moving...then she lie, lie, lies!"

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    In math (game theory), it's called the prisoner's paradox. The only scenario where everyone wins is where everyone remains silent.
    The math theory 'The Prisoners Paradox" is just that. A math problem. You yourself may know this theory, Otto, but I confess I didn't know what it was before reading your post and looking it up. It is doubtful that AK and RS and RG all had the chance to familiarize themselves with said theory in said book. And if you read the math problem below, it is a totally different fictional circumstance. It is unfair to let people assume that it is a well known study or known among criminals.


    http://www.ece.umd.edu/~tretter/enee...eprisoners.pdf
    Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for that one animal their world is changed forever! -Unknown

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    Otto
    The detailed description of evidence the body was moved was in the Micheli report. The original judge who sent them to trial. He details the lividety in the shoulder, the bloodly bra strap and the imprint left in blood.
    Thank you for finding that! I knew that it was something I read a long time ago - indeed 5-6 years. That was another point that supported the theory of staging.


    The Micheli reasoning would also be included in the appeal court decision, wouldn't it? The jury of judges would have to read the case from beginning to end, including the reason that Guede, Knox and Sollecito were arrested in the first place. That evidence hasn't been annulled or discarded, it seems it's just been forgotten six years later. I haven't yet found a translation of the report, but will read through this: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C343/

    This is a description of how investigators arrived at the conclusion that the body was moved, which contributed to the theory of staging.
    http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...._move_meredith

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoods View Post
    The math theory 'The Prisoners Paradox" is just that. A math problem. You yourself may know this theory, Otto, but I confess I didn't know what it was before reading your post and looking it up. It is doubtful that AK and RS and RG all had the chance to familiarize themselves with said theory in said book. And if you read the math problem below, it is a totally different fictional circumstance. It is unfair to let people assume that it is a well known study or known among criminals.


    http://www.ece.umd.edu/~tretter/enee...eprisoners.pdf
    WS is such a great place for learning new things!

    I was responding to a post about an economics example that I recognized as being based on the Prisoner's Paradox, also known as the Prisoner' Dilemma. The concept is fairly straight forward, although it is game theory; a field of study in mathematics.

    Suppose two children steal a candy. Even a child understands that if everyone remains silent, they'll most likely get away with it. It's along the lines of "honor amongst thieves." Math enters the scenario when the two children are separated and they each have to decide what the other will say when questioned alone. At that point, it becomes a bit of a gamble, statistically speaking. We saw that exact scenario play out when first Sollecito admitted that he'd told a "load of rubbish", because then Knox told a bigger load of rubbish (Patrick).

    I suspect that all parties involved in the murder understood perfectly well that if they kept their mouths shut, they had a better chance of getting away with murder. The problem, as I see it, is that instead of keeping their mouths shut, they told a load of whopper lies that simply made things worse. Game theory could have predicted that.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa9511 View Post
    From Otto's post from above, it says thet RS called carabineiri at 12:51. You say the report says Postal Police arrive "a little before 1 pm." Don't you find it suspicious that out of ALLLLLLLL the time from when the murder happened the night before through ALLLLLL of the morning, their phone calls and arrival overlap by mere minutes? Meaning: Amand and RS could have in theory called at 1 am, at 2:12 am, at 3:45 am, and 4:47 am, at 5:30 am, at 6:15 am, at 7:42 am, at 8:12 am, at 9:13 am, at 10:17 am, at 11:55 am, and at 12:01 pm, 12:02 pm, 12:03 pm, 12:04 pm, 12:05 pm, 12:06 pm, 12:07 pm.....................................up until 12:51 pm (and ANY MINUTE IN BETWEEN THOSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE).
    Good Point! Of all the times that Knox and Sollecito could have contacted police, it didn't happen until just before all h3ll was about to break loose and they knew it. Meredith's phones had been found and it was only a matter of time before the postal police would be looking for Filomina, but Knox's call to Meredith's English phone confirmed for her that the phones had not been found. That gave them time

    It would have been a good time to contact police when Knox arrived at the cottage and the door was wide open, there was a broken window, blood on the floor, feces in the wrong toilet, and a closed bedroom door that Filomina said was only closed when Meredith was away. It would have been a good time to phone police when Knox returned to Sollecito's apartment and described the situation.

    Still, Knox only phoned Meredith's English phone (the one she used to keep contact with her mother), not her local phone. Not reaching Meredith on this phone should have concerned her. Apparently it didn't. When Knox first spoke to Filomina, Knox was asked to phone Meredith. Knox failed to tell Filomina that she had already tried to reach Meredith on the English phone and it went to voice mail. That would have been a major concern for Filomina.

  7. #7
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    Regarding the Phone Calls to the Carabinieri:

    I guess the question is whether they were planning to go to Gubbio and let Filomina discover the scene? It sounds like Filomina and friends arrived before 1pm as did the postal police. From Knox and Sollecito, we know the postal police arrived first. Filomina and friends arrived second. The postal police arrived at 12:30 according to one statement of the Massei Report. It sounds like the Carabinieri arrived at 1:34, as that is when Knox phoned her mom to tell her that there was a foot, and so on.

    Now I understand the question of whether they had indeed phoned the Carabinieri before the postal police arrived, or did they sneak into the bedroom and make the calls. We know from testimony that Knox and Sollecito went into her room to make phone calls, she to her mom and he to his sister, but that was after the postal police and Filomina had arrived. The carabinieri were phoned after the calls to the mom and sister ... and those calls were made in the bedroom and witnessed by Filomina and friends.

    From Sollecito's statement to police, we know that he spoke to his sister, who recommended that he contact the carabinieri, but in the meantime the postal police arrived?

  8. #8
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    What is the Timeline for Postal Police and Carabinieri

    • 12:30 Postal Police arrive, Knox and Sollecito are standing in front of the cottage, on the gravel driveway towards the gate (is there a 10 minute error and it should be 12:40)
    • 12:33 or 12:43-12:47? We know that Knox and Sollecito guided the Postal Police through the crime scene, pointing out blood, broken window and stating that nothing was stolen.
    • 12:40 Knox and Filomina have a phone conversation. Did Filomina learn more about the broken window?
    • 12:48 Filomina and friends arrive?
    • Knox and Sollecito go into Knox's bedroom, close the door and make calls to her mother and his sister. They are both advised to phone the Carabinieri, which appears to have happened after the arrival of the Postal Police, after the arrival of Filomina and friends, and prior to the discovery of the body.
    • 12:47 Knox talks to her mother, but nothing has happened other than the postal police returning two cell phones and the arrival of Filomina/friends . Did Knox wake up her mother in the middle of the night to tell her that she was very concerned that the Postal Police were returning two cell phones? Knox was unconcerned about the condition of the cottage until well after she saw the feces in the toilet ... no reason to call mom ... instead she had a slow lunch at Sollecito's apartment. It doesn't seem like she phoned to tell her mom about lunch at Sollecito's, since it was the middle of the night and no one (not Edda, not KnoX) remembers what was said.
    • 12:50 Sollecito talks to his sister
    • 12:51-12:55 Solleicto on cell phone with Carabinieri
    • 1:00-ish Filomina moves evidence in her bedroom: laptop, police intervene
    • There's some debate between Knox and Filomina about breaking down the door, Filomina agrees to take full financial responsibility and finally the postal police broke down the door.
    • 1:24 Knox phones her mother to say that Meredith has been found near the closet/wardrobe and she bled to death? "There is a foot"?
    • 1:24 Carabinieri Arrive
    • Knox updated her mother at 1:27, 1:29, 1:50 1:58, 2:45, and 3:31.


    Filomina says to break down the door. Knox says that Meredith routinely locked her door.

    Can you imagine the standoff between roommates Filomina and Knox as the Postal Police request permission to break down the door without financial liability. Filomina accepted financial responsibility for replacing the door and insisted that they break the door to check on Meredith. Knox said that Meredith routinely locked her door, even though she and Raffaele had apparently tried to break down the door "in a panic" shortly before everyone arrived. It's also possible that Knox and Sollecito wanted Filomina and friends to help break down the down - without the presence of police -thus ensuring that the crime scene was permanently contaminated. That would have been a "get out of jail free" card. The arrival of the postal police put a huge munkeyrench into having the bedroom crime scene trampled by several people before police were notified


  9. #9
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    *new trial ordered* Amanda Knox New Motivation Report RE: Meredith Kercher Murder #3

    Continue here
    Last edited by Coldpizza; 10-21-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    What is the Timeline for Postal Police and Carabinieri

    • 12:30 Postal Police arrive, Knox and Sollecito are standing in front of the cottage, on the gravel driveway towards the gate (is there a 10 minute error and it should be 12:40)
    • 12:33 or 12:43-12:47? We know that Knox and Sollecito guided the Postal Police through the crime scene, pointing out blood, broken window and stating that nothing was stolen.
    • 12:40 Knox and Filomina have a phone conversation. Did Filomina learn more about the broken window?
    • 12:48 Filomina and friends arrive?
    • Knox and Sollecito go into Knox's bedroom, close the door and make calls to her mother and his sister. They are both advised to phone the Carabinieri, which appears to have happened after the arrival of the Postal Police, after the arrival of Filomina and friends, and prior to the discovery of the body.
    • 12:47 Knox talks to her mother, but nothing has happened other than the postal police returning two cell phones and the arrival of Filomina/friends . Did Knox wake up her mother in the middle of the night to tell her that she was very concerned that the Postal Police were returning two cell phones? Knox was unconcerned about the condition of the cottage until well after she saw the feces in the toilet ... no reason to call mom ... instead she had a slow lunch at Sollecito's apartment. It doesn't seem like she phoned to tell her mom about lunch at Sollecito's, since it was the middle of the night and no one (not Edda, not KnoX) remembers what was said.
    • 12:50 Sollecito talks to his sister
    • 12:51-12:55 Solleicto on cell phone with Carabinieri
    • 1:00-ish Filomina moves evidence in her bedroom: laptop, police intervene
    • There's some debate between Knox and Filomina about breaking down the door, Filomina agrees to take full financial responsibility and finally the postal police broke down the door.
    • 1:24 Knox phones her mother to say that Meredith has been found near the closet/wardrobe and she bled to death? "There is a foot"?
    • 1:24 Carabinieri Arrive
    • Knox updated her mother at 1:27, 1:29, 1:50 1:58, 2:45, and 3:31.


    Filomina says to break down the door. Knox says that Meredith routinely locked her door.

    Can you imagine the standoff between roommates Filomina and Knox as the Postal Police request permission to break down the door without financial liability. Filomina accepted financial responsibility for replacing the door and insisted that they break the door to check on Meredith. Knox said that Meredith routinely locked her door, even though she and Raffaele had apparently tried to break down the door "in a panic" shortly before everyone arrived. It's also possible that Knox and Sollecito wanted Filomina and friends to help break down the down - without the presence of police -thus ensuring that the crime scene was permanently contaminated. That would have been a "get out of jail free" card. The arrival of the postal police put a huge munkeyrench into having the bedroom crime scene trampled by several people before police were notified

    Thanks so much for this excellent post, Otto.


  11. #11
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    Question

    Are we supposed to go back on the other thread? A bit confusing...

  12. #12
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    Does anyone have any thoughts on why AK and RS said nothing was stolen if they had staged the break in?

    You'd think they'd try to make it look like a robbery, no?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Are we supposed to go back on the other thread? A bit confusing...
    No, the other thread was getting long. I just brought some posts over to continue the discussion.

    Hth


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldpizza View Post
    No, the other thread was getting long. I just brought some posts over to continue the discussion.

    Hth

    Post #9 above is very confusing. It links back to the old thread.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonata View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts on why AK and RS said nothing was stolen if they had staged the break in?

    You'd think they'd try to make it look like a robbery, no?
    Well the reason people get caught is because they don't think of everything. The perfect crime is not an easy accomplishment and they didnt have a whole lot of time. It may have been a slip in the moment to reply that nothing had been stolen when asked by 112. Considering how would they. Know nothing hadn't been stolen if they weren't the ones that staged it. If you came home to a ransacked room,broken window, and front door open would your answer be "no nothing was taken"?

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