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  1. #1
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    Is there even a case against Baldwin?

    If a new trial had been granted, would the state even be able to submit a case against Baldwin? In looking for Arkansas law on polygraphs, I cam across this case. http://ar.findacase.com/research/wfr...3379.AR.htm/qx

    We have construed this statute many times, and we have held that the testimony of an accomplice standing alone is insufficient to support a conviction. See Bly v. State, 267 Ark. 613, 593 S.W.2d 450 (1980); and Gardner v. State, 263 Ark. 739, 569 S.W.2d 74 (1978), cert. den. 440 U.S. 911 (1979). Testimony of an accomplice is insufficient to justify conviction of a [290 Ark Page 498]

    felony, even though the court and jury believed his testimony. Griffin v. State, 172 Ark. 606, 289 S.W. 765 (1927). The test for determining the sufficiency of corroborating evidence is whether, if the testimony of the accomplice were totally eliminated from the case, the other evidence independently establishes the crime and tends to connect the accused with its commission.
    It got me to thinking, if a new trial was granted, what corroborating evidence is there connecting Baldwin to the murders?

    Carson? No.

    What else is there?

    This case shows how invaluable the softball girls were to the state's case against Echols and might also explain why the state made the crazy assertion that Domini isn't Domini, but rather Domini is Jason.

    Even if you believe every single word of Jessie's so-called "confession", the state could not even submit a case against Jason at this point unless I'm missing something. No wonder he held out as long as he did before accepting the Alford Plea.

  2. #2
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    There is the case against Baldwin which was presented at his trial and there wasn't any testimony of an accomplice in it, so what you quoted from Foster v. State is irrelevant to that case. As for Carson, his vague Hollywood recantation after the three were released doesn't rightly come anywhere close to proving he would've recanted under the hypothetical circumstance you propose, let alone that such a recantation would've stood the test of the prosecution's questioning. Also, the state didn't rightly suggest that "that Domini isn't Domini, but rather Domini is Jason" as you allege, but rather simply that the Hollingsworth's might've mistook Baldwin for Teer. And then of course there's the matter of the knife recovered from the lake behind Baldwin's house which was addressed in detail at trial which the prosecution in your hypothetical trial would be unlikely to dismiss as casually as you do.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  3. #3
    How exactly is the knife forensically tied to the murders?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
    There is the case against Baldwin which was presented at his trial and there wasn't any testimony of an accomplice in it, so what you quoted from Foster v. State is irrelevant to that case. As for Carson, his vague Hollywood recantation after the three were released doesn't rightly come anywhere close to proving he would've recanted under the hypothetical circumstance you propose, let alone that such a recantation would've stood the test of the prosecution's questioning. Also, the state didn't rightly suggest that "that Domini isn't Domini, but rather Domini is Jason" as you allege, but rather simply that the Hollingsworth's might've mistook Baldwin for Teer. And then of course there's the matter of the knife recovered from the lake behind Baldwin's house which was addressed in detail at trial which the prosecution in your hypothetical trial would be unlikely to dismiss as casually as you do.
    Again, missing the point. Put yourself in Ellington's shoes. It sounds like you would agree you have Jessie's words, you have Carson's words, you have Hollingsworth's words and you have the knife. Accept Jessie's words as 100% true but Jessie's words alone cannot convict Jason. There needs to be corroborating evidence that tends to connect the defendant to the crime. Not a chance in hell Ellington would use Carson at this point. Frankly, he could possibly be brought up on ethical charges if he tried. Hollingsworth's testimony NEVER say it could have been Jason. That was an inference and an argument proffered by the state. There is ZERO evidence it was Jason and not Domini, only argument. That leaves only the knife. There is ZERO evidence that that knife ever belonged to Jason. There is ZERO evidence that that knife was used in these crimes.

    I stand by what I said. If you are in Ellington's shoes, what do you have to corroborate Jessie's words? I'm not seeing it.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by reedus23 View Post
    Again, missing the point. Put yourself in Ellington's shoes. It sounds like you would agree you have Jessie's words, you have Carson's words, you have Hollingsworth's words and you have the knife. Accept Jessie's words as 100% true but Jessie's words alone cannot convict Jason. There needs to be corroborating evidence that tends to connect the defendant to the crime. Not a chance in hell Ellington would use Carson at this point. Frankly, he could possibly be brought up on ethical charges if he tried. Hollingsworth's testimony NEVER say it could have been Jason. That was an inference and an argument proffered by the state. There is ZERO evidence it was Jason and not Domini, only argument. That leaves only the knife. There is ZERO evidence that that knife ever belonged to Jason. There is ZERO evidence that that knife was used in these crimes.

    I stand by what I said. If you are in Ellington's shoes, what do you have to corroborate Jessie's words? I'm not seeing it.
    IMO, what I placed in bold type is the crux of the issue here. There is no evidence (but Jessie's inaccurate statements) placing Jason at the crime scene. There is no forensic evidence that the knife was used in the commission of the murders. There is no evidence, forensic or otherwise, that the knife was Jason's. In short, there is no evidence whatsoever (other than Jessie's statements) that Jason was involved. Of course, the same is true of the other two as well.

  6. #6
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    Jessie wasn't the first person to suggest Jason was involved in the crime, Damien was.
    Neither the state nor the defense team are saints, and there is usually plenty of incompetence to go around on both sides of the courtroom.

  7. #7
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    I don't believe there is enough on any of them to bring a case. I think had this been tried today rather than when it was it never would have gotten to trial. Not with these 3 defendants.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs G Norris View Post
    Jessie wasn't the first person to suggest Jason was involved in the crime, Damien was.
    That's not true. Damien suggested Jason Howard Baldwin and LG Hollingsworth as suspects, he never suggested Charles Jason Baldwin. I believe the similarity of the two names may have confused you.

  9. #9
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    If witness testimony put Echols near the crime scene with Domini, both covered in incriminating mud, and...

    .. seeing as this was seen to be evidence of Echols' guilt, and...

    ...the eyewitnesses were believed, regarding Echols and their ability to discern him definitely as himself..

    .. then why was Domini never also arrested or regarded as a serious suspect? Why is the witness' eyesight spectacular enough to positively ID Echols, but not to put Domini also at the crime scene? Or indeed, for those who believe it was Baldwin seen, also unable to tell a male from a female they personally knew?

    ,,, I realise there's endless, endless, quibbling about this already in existence. But this point has always very much bothered me.
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    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
    That's not true. Damien suggested Jason Howard Baldwin and LG Hollingsworth as suspects, he never suggested Charles Jason Baldwin. I believe the similarity of the two names may have confused you.
    How was Jason Howard Baldwin cleared or investigated? I see his uncle had a history of sexual abusing children and not much went into clearing him as far as I can see. Just on that, how can someone be cleared through a polygraph but holds no weight in a court?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    Why is the witness' eyesight spectacular enough to positively ID Echols, but not to put Domini also at the crime scene?
    There's nothing spectacular about what the Hollingsworths described, and they didn't put anyone at the scene, but only near it, which isn't enough to arrest anyone for. I'm in not rightly in any position to know how seriously Teer was ever considered a suspect though, and doubt anyone else here is either. Also, I've never seen anyone proclaim it had to be Baldwin the Hollingsworths saw, but I don't rule out the possibility that it might have been given the similarity in appearance between Baldwin and Teer at the time, particularly given the similarity between how the Hollingsowrths described the clothing and how Misskelley described Baldwin as having been dressed that night.
    Last edited by kyleb; 11-13-2013 at 03:12 AM.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  12. #12
    IMO, the reason Domini wasn't arrested was because the police had their suspects, and Domini wasn't one. That's why the identification of Domini by the Hollingsworth clan was morphed into Jason by the prosecution. I don't know if the police had pity on her or if there was some other nefarious reason why, but the bottom line is still "Damien Echols tunnel vision" that wiped out any other suspects.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
    There's nothing spectacular about what the Hollingsworths described, and they didn't put anyone at the scene, but only near it, which isn't enough to arrest anyone for. I'm in not rightly in any position to know how seriouslyy Teer was ever considered a suspect though, and doubt anyone else here is either. Also, I've never seen anyone proclaim it had to be Baldwin the Hollingsworths saw, but I don't rule out the possibility that it might have been given the similarity in appearance between Baldwin and Teer at the time, particularly given the similarity between how the Hollingsowrths described the clothing and how Misskelley described Baldwin as having been dressed that night.
    Do you think it's possible Domini went down there after the crime? I have wondered if she might have gone down there and met Damien and walked back with him as described with Jason leaving before hand.
    Neither the state nor the defense team are saints, and there is usually plenty of incompetence to go around on both sides of the courtroom.

  14. #14
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    Sure, or perhaps she just met up with Echols near by and got mud all over herself by hugging him, or maybe she was actually there during the murders but Misskelley didn't want her to get in trouble for what Echols got her into and hence chose not to implicate her. Regardless, absent any evidence which actually implicates someone in a crime a judge can't rightly issue a search warrant regarding them, let alone an arrest warrant for them, and at least as far as I've seen there's no evidence that Teer took part in the murders.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs G Norris View Post
    Jessie wasn't the first person to suggest Jason was involved in the crime, Damien was.
    Take your word for it. Not going to argue if he did or not because the simple fact is, that wouldn't be evidence. Wasn't evidence the first time and wouldn't have been evidence the 2nd time.

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