684 users online (80 members and 604 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 51 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 756
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,926

    Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

    The image below, taken from the Forums for Justice forums, is a photograph of the ligature or garrote used during the murder of this child. I freely admit that this might well have been discussed to death and I missed it, but for whatever reason I never really paid any attention to this weapon before.



    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1338921389

    Regardless of who you believe killed this child, I believe most people accept (and the evidence supports) that this weapon was constructed in the home and was employed to finish the murder which began with the blow to the head.

    The wood is apparently the broken handle of a paint brush found in the basement. The cordage came from somewhere unknown? As I understand it...

    The stick was a paintbush handle with BOTH ends broken off (one of which apparently remains missing to this day). One end of the cord was tied around the handle, the other end was fashioned into a slip knot to form a noose which went around JBR's neck. My questions:

    1. Why a PAINTBRUSH? Paintbrush handles are generally weak. If you were looking to quickly finish someone off and didn't feel like hitting them any more (the obvious solution) why take the time to break the ends off the brush? You would either use it as is or find something more appropriate.

    2. Where's the missing end? Regardless who did it, if it were constructed that night the missing end wouldn't be missing. It would be there in the brush case with the rest of it.

    3. The knot. Imaging you are trying to invent a murder weapon quickly, you have minutes, and then ask yourself... is THIS the kind of knot you would tie? I am not claiming that this knot required some special expertise, I don't know that, but in my opinion it does not seem like the kind of thing someone whipped out on their first try. It looks purposeful.

    4. The mechanism of killing. Basically, as I understand it, this was nothing more than a noose with a stick on the end. JBR's neck was inside the noose. It was tightened either by pushing the knot or by twisting the stick and coiling the string to apply pressure against the knot. If you were trying to quickly kill someone this is not how you would do it. Not even close. You would tie a stick on both ends, loop it around the neck, and pull. Who would even THINK of constructing some device like this, let alone on the spur of the moment.

    5. This took time and thought. It was't thrown together in moments as a hasty "finish her off" improvised weapon. It was crafted with at least some care, and yet it's not all that effective as a murder device. Why go to all this trouble when the killer had to LITERALLY step over loose power cords, marker pens, and sections of train track on the floor? A man's tie, a twisted nightgown, damn near anything would have worked as well -- so why CONSTRUCT something like this?



    6. Where's the missing parts? Specifically, where did the cord come from and where's the rest of the paintbrush? If you look at imagines of the home and basement there is cord all over the place and all kinds of wonderful strangulation implements. The killer had NO REASON to remove any of it, and in some cases had no hesitation in leaving it behind. Some of the pieces of paintbrush, for example, were left. Only one piece was missing. The remaining cord has apparently never been located.

    All of these questions lead me to one simple conclusion:

    This weapon was not constructed that night. No one threw this together to finish JBR off, it was already together and might well have been used on her -- perhaps multiple times in the past. The missing piece of wood is easily explained this way as well. The person who constructed this weapon initially just snapped the ferule off the brush, and in some previous use the other end broke off and was discarded at that time. The cord packaging and remains weren't smuggled out (there would be no reason for anyone to do that regardless of who it was), it was just thrown away long before.

    Summary: This supposed murder weapon was not designed with this purpose in mind. It would only really word that way on an unconscious victim or if significant force were applied (as in an effort at assassination). Nor was this imagined and constructed by someone without some investment of time and thought. No one said to themselves, "Holy Hell, I need to kill someone right now! I better start designing and crafting an elaborate device!"

    This was a TOY, no more effective than the loose bonds on JBRs wrists, pressed into service for lethal use.

    IN MY OPINION.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,871
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Texas View Post
    The image below, taken from the Forums for Justice forums, is a photograph of the ligature or garrote used during the murder of this child. I freely admit that this might well have been discussed to death and I missed it, but for whatever reason I never really paid any attention to this weapon before.



    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...1&d=1338921389

    Regardless of who you believe killed this child, I believe most people accept (and the evidence supports) that this weapon was constructed in the home and was employed to finish the murder which began with the blow to the head.

    The wood is apparently the broken handle of a paint brush found in the basement. The cordage came from somewhere unknown? As I understand it...

    The stick was a paintbush handle with BOTH ends broken off (one of which apparently remains missing to this day). One end of the cord was tied around the handle, the other end was fashioned into a slip knot to form a noose which went around JBR's neck. My questions:

    1. Why a PAINTBRUSH? Paintbrush handles are generally weak. If you were looking to quickly finish someone off and didn't feel like hitting them any more (the obvious solution) why take the time to break the ends off the brush? You would either use it as is or find something more appropriate.

    2. Where's the missing end? Regardless who did it, if it were constructed that night the missing end wouldn't be missing. It would be there in the brush case with the rest of it.

    3. The knot. Imaging you are trying to invent a murder weapon quickly, you have minutes, and then ask yourself... is THIS the kind of knot you would tie? I am not claiming that this knot required some special expertise, I don't know that, but in my opinion it does not seem like the kind of thing someone whipped out on their first try. It looks purposeful.

    4. The mechanism of killing. Basically, as I understand it, this was nothing more than a noose with a stick on the end. JBR's neck was inside the noose. It was tightened either by pushing the knot or by twisting the stick and coiling the string to apply pressure against the knot. If you were trying to quickly kill someone this is not how you would do it. Not even close. You would tie a stick on both ends, loop it around the neck, and pull. Who would even THINK of constructing some device like this, let alone on the spur of the moment.

    5. This took time and thought. It was't thrown together in moments as a hasty "finish her off" improvised weapon. It was crafted with at least some care, and yet it's not all that effective as a murder device. Why go to all this trouble when the killer had to LITERALLY step over loose power cords, marker pens, and sections of train track on the floor? A man's tie, a twisted nightgown, damn near anything would have worked as well -- so why CONSTRUCT something like this?



    6. Where's the missing parts? Specifically, where did the cord come from and where's the rest of the paintbrush? If you look at imagines of the home and basement there is cord all over the place and all kinds of wonderful strangulation implements. The killer had NO REASON to remove any of it, and in some cases had no hesitation in leaving it behind. Some of the pieces of paintbrush, for example, were left. Only one piece was missing. The remaining cord has apparently never been located.

    All of these questions lead me to one simple conclusion:

    This weapon was not constructed that night. No one threw this together to finish JBR off, it was already together and might well have been used on her -- perhaps multiple times in the past. The missing piece of wood is easily explained this way as well. The person who constructed this weapon initially just snapped the ferule off the brush, and in some previous use the other end broke off and was discarded at that time. The cord packaging and remains weren't smuggled out (there would be no reason for anyone to do that regardless of who it was), it was just thrown away long before.

    Summary: This supposed murder weapon was not designed with this purpose in mind. It would only really word that way on an unconscious victim or if significant force were applied (as in an effort at assassination). Nor was this imagined and constructed by someone without some investment of time and thought. No one said to themselves, "Holy Hell, I need to kill someone right now! I better start designing and crafting an elaborate device!"

    This was a TOY, no more effective than the loose bonds on JBRs wrists, pressed into service for lethal use.

    IN MY OPINION.
    Chris_Texas,
    This subject has been discussed before. Was it constructed that night, well it might assist knowing that shards of wood matching that of the paintbrush handle were found outside the wine-cellar door.

    Did it asphyxiate JonBenet you decide. Was it staging, surely so, thus how important is it?

    Its importance may be we know someone decided to kill JonBenet, since they denied her medical assistance, a hand over her mouth would have been sufficient, but they opted for the garrote, i.e. overkill, hence staging.

    Thats what it represents to me.


    .

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    36,310
    I must admit to not having followed this case on forums and therefore am woefully uninformed. I have only recently begun lurking on the JBR threads here in an attempt to learn a bit about this case.

    Please bear with me. I read somewhere, can't recall where that JBR was or may have been sexually assaulted with a paintbrush handle? Is this true? If so could this be the one and same paint brush? Further if true, could the missing part have some sort of DNA evidence on it that the killer did not want found with the body, such as skin, blood, perhaps a splintering caused a minor cut or injury during that act?

    okay found where I think I had read the bit about vaginal injury and paintbrush possible connection. I think it came from here [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1159541&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Jon Benet's vaginal injuries: the work of a crazed paedophile?[/ame]

    Thanks for bearing with a newbie to the discussion. I am kind of leaning toward the vaginal injuries and the possible sexual assault having been part of the coverup and assault of that nature not having been the primary goal of the evening. The DNA found in her underpants, from what I understand, was not semen, so I am wondering if got there while the perp was staging this assault upon her. For some reason I have never thought the actual murder was about rape or sexual assault. I do think her frequent UTIs may have suggested that someone was molesting her. But for whatever reason I have never connected her murder to the possible molestation.
    Websleuths now on Facebook

    Welcome to all new members. Thank you for joining the conversation. Please take a moment to become familiar with the TOS and rules, etiquette and information.

    mni wiconi - Lakota for Water is Life.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Chris_Texas,
    This subject has been discussed before. Was it constructed that night, well it might assist knowing that shards of wood matching that of the paintbrush handle were found outside the wine-cellar door.

    Did it asphyxiate JonBenet you decide. Was it staging, surely so, thus how important is it?

    Its importance may be we know someone decided to kill JonBenet, since they denied her medical assistance, a hand over her mouth would have been sufficient, but they opted for the garrote, i.e. overkill, hence staging.

    Thats what it represents to me.


    .
    I guess what I am saying is that this, in my opinion, dramatically understates the case. If we assume that it was constructed that night it still misses the signifant question of WHY this device and not something else?

    Someone who is thinking strangulation is picturing things they might use for the job. For example, the power cord laying right there on the floor inb the pictures. No one is going to think, 'I need to strangle her, but first I need to craft some elaborate and virtually ineffective mechanism to do it for me.' The same applies to the paint brush: if the goal is a solid object a few inches long, why start snapping the ends off flimsy artists paint brushes? A hair brush would be stronger and just as effective, so would a marking pen or any tool. And none would require crafting.

    And then there is the method itself: a noose on the end of a piece of cord. Who would even think to construct something like that as an implement for murder? If you wanted to strangle someone with a rope it doesn't require construction to do it, it just requires a rope -- or at the most a rope with a handle on both ends.

    But they MIGHT very well craft something like this as an implement of torture or sexual asphixiation -- and this fits in as well with the "loosely" bound hands.


    IMO
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    where the big sharks come to play
    Posts
    5,569
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Texas View Post
    I guess what I am saying is that this, in my opinion, dramatically understates the case. If we assume that it was constructed that night it still misses the signifant question of WHY this device and not something else?

    Someone who is thinking strangulation is picturing things they might use for the job. For example, the power cord laying right there on the floor inb the pictures. No one is going to think, 'I need to strangle her, but first I need to craft some elaborate and virtually ineffective mechanism to do it for me.' The same applies to the paint brush: if the goal is a solid object a few inches long, why start snapping the ends off flimsy artists paint brushes? A hair brush would be stronger and just as effective, so would a marking pen or any tool. And none would require crafting.

    And then there is the method itself: a noose on the end of a piece of cord. Who would even think to construct something like that as an implement for murder? If you wanted to strangle someone with a rope it doesn't require construction to do it, it just requires a rope -- or at the most a rope with a handle on both ends.

    But they MIGHT very well craft something like this as an implement of torture or sexual asphixiation -- and this fits in as well with the "loosely" bound hands.

    IMO
    Yes, either it is complete staging (which there was plenty of) or it was some sort of erotic asphyxiation mechanism????
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Look, if any of us wanted to mind our own business, we wouldn't be here" (carbuff 8/11/13)

    This post reflects my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy it anywhere else outside of the WebSleuth forum

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    537
    Thank you for making an excellent point that I had not previously considered. I agree that this points to the garrote having been created prior to the head bash and points to its use for a purpose other than murder. The fact that it was what killed JB does not mean it was created for that purpose. No one is going to create the garrote between the time of the head bash and the time it was used to kill JB. It existed before.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    8,022
    The cord may have been bought by Patsy a few days before her death. It may not have been bought with intent to commit murder. Both the tape and the cord match items sold to Patsy Ramsey (and listed on a register receipt) and match identical items as to price and department sold in McGuckin's Hardware. They still had the old-stye register that did not print the specific item name (like "duct tape" or "nylon cord") but an employee who was questioned by LE said that the register receipt indicated those exact items would match what was on the receipt.
    I believe it was made that day- there were splinters from the broken paintbrush on the floor near the paint tote and near the creatine-stained carpeted floor where it is believed JB could have died. One piece -the middle- was used to make the garrote, one was left in the paint tote and one was never found (as far as we know).
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    537
    This does trouble me. I do not believe the creation and use of the garrot to be pure staging. One might theorize that the garrot was used to kill JB to put a dying child out of her misery and in that case it might be seen as an act of mercy. But something does not feel right about that. I sense there is something more to it that does not fit. I do not know how it makes sense but the garrot and the head bash together seem to point to premeditated murder of JB.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    8,871
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_Texas View Post
    I guess what I am saying is that this, in my opinion, dramatically understates the case. If we assume that it was constructed that night it still misses the signifant question of WHY this device and not something else?

    Someone who is thinking strangulation is picturing things they might use for the job. For example, the power cord laying right there on the floor inb the pictures. No one is going to think, 'I need to strangle her, but first I need to craft some elaborate and virtually ineffective mechanism to do it for me.' The same applies to the paint brush: if the goal is a solid object a few inches long, why start snapping the ends off flimsy artists paint brushes? A hair brush would be stronger and just as effective, so would a marking pen or any tool. And none would require crafting.

    And then there is the method itself: a noose on the end of a piece of cord. Who would even think to construct something like that as an implement for murder? If you wanted to strangle someone with a rope it doesn't require construction to do it, it just requires a rope -- or at the most a rope with a handle on both ends.

    But they MIGHT very well craft something like this as an implement of torture or sexual asphixiation -- and this fits in as well with the "loosely" bound hands.


    IMO
    Chris_Texas,
    Because its intended as staging, i.e. to hide something else, its that simple, no EA required just a staged homicide enacted as a ****ee event with terrorist overtones.


    .

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The cord may have been bought by Patsy a few days before her death. It may not have been bought with intent to commit murder. Both the tape and the cord match items sold to Patsy Ramsey (and listed on a register receipt) and match identical items as to price and department sold in McGuckin's Hardware. They still had the old-stye register that did not print the specific item name (like "duct tape" or "nylon cord") but an employee who was questioned by LE said that the register receipt indicated those exact items would match what was on the receipt.
    I believe it was made that day- there were splinters from the broken paintbrush on the floor near the paint tote and near the creatine-stained carpeted floor where it is believed JB could have died. One piece -the middle- was used to make the garrote, one was left in the paint tote and one was never found (as far as we know).
    Given the state of the home (and basement) I suspect the wood splinters could easily have been there a LONG time without being cleaned up by anyone.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    The cord may have been bought by Patsy a few days before her death. It may not have been bought with intent to commit murder. Both the tape and the cord match items sold to Patsy Ramsey (and listed on a register receipt) and match identical items as to price and department sold in McGuckin's Hardware. They still had the old-stye register that did not print the specific item name (like "duct tape" or "nylon cord") but an employee who was questioned by LE said that the register receipt indicated those exact items would match what was on the receipt.
    I believe it was made that day- there were splinters from the broken paintbrush on the floor near the paint tote and near the creatine-stained carpeted floor where it is believed JB could have died. One piece -the middle- was used to make the garrote, one was left in the paint tote and one was never found (as far as we know).
    Even if PR had bought the materials for the garrot, who do you propose created the garrot and when did they create it and for what purpose did they create it?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    24,159

    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Anyhoo View Post
    Even if PR had bought the materials for the garrot, who do you propose created the garrot and when did they create it and for what purpose did they create it?
    John for his EA game with her, then it got used in the staging. Patsy may have had a hand in the staging.
    This is the year to locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin NamUs MP#876 and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff NamUs MP#6410 and bring them home to their families!

    Parents watch your children. Free-range parenting leads to more child victims.

    Cruelty to humans begins with cruelty to animals.

    I believe in closure, not forgiveness. I'm also unapologetically judgemental.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    John for his EA game with her, then it got used in the staging. Patsy may have had a hand in the staging.
    So PR buys the materials for her husband to create a garrot so he can sexually abuse their daughter with it? She buys the materials well advance of the murder indicating she is preparing for the murder? There is no way that makes any sense.
    Last edited by Anyhoo; 11-03-2013 at 09:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by Anyhoo View Post
    This does trouble me. I do not believe the creation and use of the garrot to be pure staging. One might theorize that the garrot was used to kill JB to put a dying child out of her misery and in that case it might be seen as an act of mercy. But something does not feel right about that. I sense there is something more to it that does not fit. I do not know how it makes sense but the garrot and the head bash together seem to point to premeditated murder of JB.
    It's ultimate use could well have been to put a fataly injured child out of her misery, but this does not necessarly indicate that this was it's INTENDED or original use. Correct?

    Something has always bothered me about this portion of the crime as well, but it wasn't until today -- looking at the images -- that it finally struck me just how out of place this weapon is. I suspect that very few people, faced with the task of executing a critically wounded human (let alone their own child) would have the presence of mind to concoct, let alone craft, something of this sort. Look at the knot on this thing and consider HOW it was intended to be used, the process involved.

    It wasn't a matter of wrapping a cord around her neck and throttling the life out of her. THIS creation required the user to place the noose around her neck and then -- as likely as not -- mechanically twist the handle into the back or side of her neck, ripping her hair our in the process, and thus slowly choke her to death.

    I am not trying to be gruesome or dramatic here, that's what the images seem to show actually happened. Again, this was NOT a garrote, nor was it just a rope wrapped around her throat. It was a handle with a noose attached to the far end. And in my opinion that just doesn't fit, which is why I believe that this weapon was built for a different purpose at an earlier date, and I believe the bound hands fits in with this as well.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,926
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    Chris_Texas,
    Because its intended as staging, i.e. to hide something else, its that simple, no EA required just a staged homicide enacted as a ****ee event with terrorist overtones.


    .
    She wasn't strangled as part of any staging, she was strangled to death after the blow to the head critically injured her. In my opinion.
    DISCLAIMER: The above is my OPINION only. Unless stated otherwise, I neither claim nor imply any inside knowledge or expert opinion about any subject I happen to be discussing. The reader assumes full responsibility for any conclusions my writing might cause them to reach. Warning: may cause drowsiness, do not operate heavy machinery while reading

Page 1 of 51 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. 2016.05.17 Batch 6 Discovery Docs ***GRAPHIC Content***
    By beach in forum Dr. Teresa Sievers
    Replies: 601
    Last Post: 12-24-2016, 10:07 PM
  2. 2016.06.27 Batch 7 ***Some Graphic Content***
    By beach in forum Dr. Teresa Sievers
    Replies: 300
    Last Post: 07-19-2016, 10:49 AM
  3. Case Documents *WARNING-GRAPHIC CONTENT*
    By twall in forum Somer Renee Thompson
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-01-2012, 09:58 PM
  4. Replies: 82
    Last Post: 02-23-2011, 11:05 AM
  5. Replies: 481
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 10:50 PM