BDI,premeditated or not?

BDI/was it premeditated or just an accident?

  • Yes,he acted upon his fantasy

    Votes: 15 36.6%

  • No,it was an accident

    Votes: 26 63.4%
  • Total voters
    41

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madeleine

madeleine

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arguments here
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9950590#post9950590"]What do Burke's interviews tell us? - Page 11 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
I have to vote for accident...I think even if it was PR or JR was responsible for the head blow it wasn't intentional.
 
if you pick up a hammer or grab a flashlight or a bat and hit someone on the head that hard...I really can't view it as an accident...
 
madeleine said:
if you pick up a hammer or grab a flashlight or a bat and hit someone on the head that hard...I really can't view it as an accident...
Click to expand...

Ha...yes true. There is always part of me in these cases where I just can't wrap my head around premeditation/deliberate intent.

Of course that doesn't mean it isn't true.
 
I don't know how to vote in this poll.
What makes sense to me is to attribute all of the violence to BR. In the event that BDI, I suspect that BR is responsible for the head bash and then the strangulation. (I never bought the - she was bashed and then a parent "finished her off" scenario.
So - since there were two actions, then I guess that pretty well meets the threshold for premeditation.
However we have know way to no if BR harbored any fantasies of killing JBR.
All simply my opinion based on the available evidence.
 
IMO what was premeditated was the sexual assault. Christmas night seemed just right, except for some reason, JonBenet did not.


Someone lost the plot and violently assaulted JonBenet, the rest is just staging, possibly multiple attempts.

.
 
wengr said:
I don't know how to vote in this poll.
What makes sense to me is to attribute all of the violence to BR. In the event that BDI, I suspect that BR is responsible for the head bash and then the strangulation. (I never bought the - she was bashed and then a parent "finished her off" scenario.
So - since there were two actions, then I guess that pretty well meets the threshold for premeditation.
However we have know way to no if BR harbored any fantasies of killing JBR.
All simply my opinion based on the available evidence.
Click to expand...

BBM I can absolutely buy the scenario that PR and JR "finished her off ".
Fibers from PR's jacket were found entwined in the ligature. Fibers from JR's new Israeli wool sweater were found in the crotch of the new size 12 panties JBR had been redressed in.
 
I don't know, but His theory as an almost ten year old seemed to be that someone premeditated by getting a hammer or taking out a knife.
 
txsvicki said:
I don't know, but His theory as an almost ten year old seemed to be that someone premeditated by getting a hammer or taking out a knife.
Click to expand...
from the way he told this story, it was more like he witnessed it or overheard a conversation. From what I read, it didn't read like he was 'confessing'...although parts may have been redacted that I don't know about. About that hammer...what a whopper of a story! And once I read it, I couldn't let it go. IDK what kind of hammer and I don' t know how the skull fracture lined up with any hammer, but IMO, forget about the flashlight, golf club or baseball bat, because BR said a hammer was used. And since he was in that house when the murder happened, I guess he could know. And in my wildest imaginings, I never would have thought someone took a hammer to this little girl's head. There's no way this was an accident, IMO. Someone had to deliberately rear back and swing as hard as he/she could, to leave that huge hole and fracture. I don't think JB was hit because she screamed, I think she screamed because she saw that she was fixing to get hit. What a horror. It's times like this that make me doubt the PR theory. I don't care what the evidence says or how enraged she was, a mother who loved her daughter, (and I believe she did), couldn't deliberately bash her little daughter in the head. Using a flashlight or something else handy is one thing, a rash almost spontaneous action, but a hammer is so deliberate. I just don't know what to think about this. moo
 
dodie20 said:
from the way he told this story, it was more like he witnessed it or overheard a conversation. From what I read, it didn't read like he was 'confessing'...although parts may have been redacted that I don't know about. About that hammer...what a whopper of a story! And once I read it, I couldn't let it go. IDK what kind of hammer and I don' t know how the skull fracture lined up with any hammer, but IMO, forget about the flashlight, golf club or baseball bat, because BR said a hammer was used. And since he was in that house when the murder happened, I guess he could know. And in my wildest imaginings, I never would have thought someone took a hammer to this little girl's head. There's no way this was an accident, IMO. Someone had to deliberately rear back and swing as hard as he/she could, to leave that huge hole and fracture. I don't think JB was hit because she screamed, I think she screamed because she saw that she was fixing to get hit. What a horror. It's times like this that make me doubt the PR theory. I don't care what the evidence says or how enraged she was, a mother who loved her daughter, (and I believe she did), couldn't deliberately bash her little daughter in the head. Using a flashlight or something else handy is one thing, a rash almost spontaneous action, but a hammer is so deliberate. I just don't know what to think about this. moo
Click to expand...

It makes more sense to me that JB screamed because someone had somehow reared back to strike, and she was in the line of a strike. For many reasons I’ve never been able to see a smoking gun for the head strike; it could have been any of them. In a tussle between 2 adults, it could have happened with one or two adults enraged. It could have happened if JB had threatened to tell on her sibling abuser. And lastly, it could have happened with pre-meditation that night, if someone’s klonipin, wine, (chemo brain?) or whatever addled them so much that they thought killing JB was the only way to save her from further abuse. Or maybe they even blamed her. Throw in jealousy from either BR or PR and we end up with a virtual “Rube Goldberg” like crime design.

As far as the hammer comment, it struck me (no pun intended) like what a kid would come up with. One uses a hammer to pound nails. If one wants to hit someone on the head, grab a hammer and pound ‘em with it. Kolar seems to think that PR and JR were telling the truth, that they did not discuss the way JB was killed with BR. However, BR had friends who could have said something to the effect, “I heard someone hit JB hard on the head, like with a hammer or something.” Some kids are not exact in their details. All moo.
 
I'm not sure that a 9 almost 10 year old can form the intention of doing great harm. Hitting another person because he is angry is acting out. The intent would be leave me alone or my stuff alone. I don't see that he could "kill".
 
zoomama said:
I'm not sure that a 9 almost 10 year old can form the intention of doing great harm. Hitting another person because he is angry is acting out. The intent would be leave me alone or my stuff alone. I don't see that he could "kill".
Click to expand...

He was almost 10. Just weeks away.

Remember that 8 year old in AZ that murdered his father and the roommate? He even lured the roommate. That boy was bone chillingly cool as a cucumber while he was spinning his tale too.

I believe a 8-9-10 year old can intend to kill and can intend to rape. It's happened!

Burke strikes me as a child with pretty severe attachment issues. He seemed indifferent, cold and very detached from his sister. Like he never missed her, not even for even a second.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This is the one case I've followed on WS over the years but never shared my thoughts on. I never found it difficult to draw the conclusion I drew, but I absolutely found it difficult to share those thoughts on a public forum. I'm sure most of you can understand why.

Having said that, I don't know the answer to the poll question, so I didn't vote. I suspect the answer is more complicated than the poll choices.

And I think that's all I want to say about it.
 
Chelly said:
BBM I can absolutely buy the scenario that PR and JR "finished her off ".
Fibers from PR's jacket were found entwined in the ligature. Fibers from JR's new Israeli wool sweater were found in the crotch of the new size 12 panties JBR had been redressed in.
Click to expand...
How can we assume that the person who placed the size 12's on her was the killer? I would say that person is a stager.
And, since we know that we have one or more people in the house who were bent on misleading police and thwarting the investigation, how can we assume that the paint brush handle was part of the process that killed JBR?
I maintain that even if the cord was actually used to end JBR's life, we cannot know if it was manipulated, (like with the addition of the handle), in order to mask the nature of the event.
 
I would think that if she was hit with a hammer there would have been a break in the skin on the scalp. Perhaps her head was slammed against something.
In the testimony, didn't someone say JAR was into rope climbing? BR would surely know something about knots, as he was in scouts, and sailed with his Dad. If he took karate, or watched wrestling he may have learned the result of what an arm around the neck, and pressure there that could enable someone to pass out. Something happened in that basement hallway, which caused JB to urinate, and because there was a frontal urine stain on the long johns, she had to be on her stomach, and could easily be attacked from behind.
I think the garrote could have been made by BR, but I don't know when it was made, so I'm not sure it was a result of premeditation. Maybe it was made for the "puppy game".
 
In BDI scenario I have always thought that the headblow was an accident. But Cyril Wecht made it clear that due to little amount of bleeding in the brain she must have been strangled first. Therefore I voted premeditated. It is difficult to grasp that Burke premeditated this, but on the other hand the bizarre nature of the crime and her injuries may be explained if a disturbed child was behind it.

I don`t believe the parents premeditated to kill her because the cover up- oversized panties, the silly ransom note, practice note etc.- seem to be made in a panic. And I don`t believe they would have used the garrote in some sex game because they were leaving for Charlevoix in the morning, how would they explain the injuries on her neck to relatives?
 
(respectfully snipped)
Darlene733510 said:
In the testimony, didn't someone say JAR was into rope climbing? BR would surely know something about knots, as he was in scouts, and sailed with his Dad.
Click to expand...
I don’t remember where, but somewhere I remember reading that JAR was a rock climbing enthusiast. It may have been to explain the rope in his room, but it seemed to be accepted as fact. There were two shoe prints found in the WC -- one with the Hi-Tec poon imprint and the other with what appears to be an “XP” in the imprint. There is also another CS photo of something that people have speculated may have been a bare foot. Lou Smit even told someone in an interview it would be about the same size as his six-year-old granddaughter’s foot. Smit either has miniature grandchildren or he’s not familiar with crime scene scales (rulers), because if you look at the photo of this “bare foot print”, the scale shows it to be about 7 cm long, or just under 3 inches. (Even in the States, CSI’s don’t use scales with inches.)

I think this photo is the resulting imprint of a carabiner -- “an oblong metal ring with one spring-hinged side that is used especially in mountain climbing as a connector and to hold a freely running rope.” According to Wikipedia, it is “widely used in rope-intensive activities such as climbing, arboriculture, caving, sailing, rope rescue, construction, industrial rope work, and window cleaning.”

Needless to say, it could very well have been used with nylon cord for rock climbing activities. Not that it had to have been used in the basement by its owner -- simply that it might have been something left lying around in the Ramsey hellhole.

JamesonsForumSmallFootprint-img041.jpg
220px-Cheap_carabiners.JPG
 
questfortrue said:
It makes more sense to me that JB screamed because someone had somehow reared back to strike, and she was in the line of a strike. For many reasons I’ve never been able to see a smoking gun for the head strike; it could have been any of them. In a tussle between 2 adults, it could have happened with one or two adults enraged. It could have happened if JB had threatened to tell on her sibling abuser. And lastly, it could have happened with pre-meditation that night, if someone’s klonipin, wine, (chemo brain?) or whatever addled them so much that they thought killing JB was the only way to save her from further abuse. Or maybe they even blamed her. Throw in jealousy from either BR or PR and we end up with a virtual “Rube Goldberg” like crime design.

As far as the hammer comment, it struck me (no pun intended) like what a kid would come up with. One uses a hammer to pound nails. If one wants to hit someone on the head, grab a hammer and pound ‘em with it. Kolar seems to think that PR and JR were telling the truth, that they did not discuss the way JB was killed with BR. However, BR had friends who could have said something to the effect, “I heard someone hit JB hard on the head, like with a hammer or something.” Some kids are not exact in their details. All moo.
Click to expand...
It Does seem like something a kid would come up with. I know this probably isn't related, (because no parent would allow their kid to watch such a movie), but back in the early 90s, my husband rented a horror movie. Supposedly, the scenes were faked, but it was still very disturbing and I couldn't finish it. There was one scene where some tourists in Egypt, (I think), were in a restaurant and were preparing to eat monkey brain. The waiter brought a live monkey to the table, and it was up to the diners to bash it in the head with hammers. Anyway, after I went to bed last night, I thought of that stupid movie and realized it was the only time I'd ever heard of anybody bashing anything in the head with a hammer. Like I said, it's probably not related to this case I'm sure, but I was thinking if 1 kid saw it and bragged to his friends, it might plant a seed. moo
 
(bbm)
Mysteeri said:
In BDI scenario I have always thought that the headblow was an accident. But Cyril Wecht made it clear that due to little amount of bleeding in the brain she must have been strangled first. Therefore I voted premeditated. It is difficult to grasp that Burke premeditated this, but on the other hand the bizarre nature of the crime and her injuries may be explained if a disturbed child was behind it.

I don`t believe the parents premeditated to kill her because the cover up- oversized panties, the silly ransom note, practice note etc.- seem to be made in a panic. And I don`t believe they would have used the garrote in some sex game because they were leaving for Charlevoix in the morning, how would they explain the injuries on her neck to relatives?
Click to expand...
Too bad you can't go back to change you vote, Mysteeri, because I think you were right before -- if you based the premeditation on the order of injuries. Dr. Wecht is one of the few medical experts who said the head blow came after the strangulation. But there was much more bleeding than he spoke of in the part of his book where he is quoted as saying there was only about 1-1/2 teaspoons of blood. I'll quote myself here from a previous post:
otg said:
It is often repeated that there was little bleeding in the skull. But there was more than what most people realize. Besides the often-quoted 1-1/2 teaspoons of subdural hemorrhage (which is the only bleeding that is quantified in the AR), there was also bleeding under the scalp ("an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area"), and "a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere". (Red text is from the AR.) IOW, there were three areas of bleeding in different areas of the layers around the skull. The only one people refer to is the "1-1/2 teaspoons" because it is the only one Meyer quantifies in the AR. If all the medical mumbo-jumbo is confusing (and it is to me as well), let me suggest reading where I tried to break down the AR into understandable language here.

Wecht commented at one time on the relatively small amount for this type of injury, and he put into layman's terms an amount we can understand (1-1/2 teaspoons instead of 7 to 8 cc's). I don't think he said that this was an indication that the head blow was inflicted after death (I could be wrong on that), but that it happened after the strangulation. The problem with the amount of bleeding inside her skull is that with the ligature already tight around her neck, the blood flow in and out of her head would be restricted. If there was no strangulation at the moment the head blow happened, there would indeed have been much more bleeding.
Click to expand...

There is much more discussion about Wecht's theory about all this beginning [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9565850#post9565850"]here[/ame] and continuing here.
 
dodie20 said:
It Does seem like something a kid would come up with. I know this probably isn't related, (because no parent would allow their kid to watch such a movie), but back in the early 90s, my husband rented a horror movie. Supposedly, the scenes were faked, but it was still very disturbing and I couldn't finish it. There was one scene where some tourists in Egypt, (I think), were in a restaurant and were preparing to eat monkey brain. The waiter brought a live monkey to the table, and it was up to the diners to bash it in the head with hammers. Anyway, after I went to bed last night, I thought of that stupid movie and realized it was the only time I'd ever heard of anybody bashing anything in the head with a hammer. Like I said, it's probably not related to this case I'm sure, but I was thinking if 1 kid saw it and bragged to his friends, it might plant a seed. moo
Click to expand...
OMG, dodie! You watched Faces of Death:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faces_of_Death"]Faces of Death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Some of it was faked, but I think the majority was real (including the monkey scene). Truly not for the fainthearted.
 
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