PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

This is the thread on Ray Gricar, the former district attorney of Centre County, PA. Please continue the discussion here.

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Note that, perhaps uniquely on the Internet, these threads begin from the first week after Ray Gricar disappeared.

Thank you,
Seeking Jana

I was re-watching Mr. Gricar's " Disappeared" segment to see more of the landscape and what Lewisburg looked like.
I've asked this and there may be no possible answer. I know he went antiquing as a hobby. I know he was known to the proprietor and at least one shop girl at the Street of Shops.

What intrigues me is that we have abbreviated the antique mall as the SOS for years. Is it known as that locally?
Is there any likely association with his last known location having the abbreviation known to be a distress signal, " SOS"?

He was/is a genius, IMO. Could he have stayed there for a prolonged time in order to be seen if he was either in jeopardy or wanted to perhaps give the impression that he was?

This is not earth-shaking, however, in all the times we have discussed the SOS, even LC's discussion of the blonde clerk ( ), no one ever mentioned the shop's acronym.

The Dateline series on Ray Gricar's disappearance is well worth watching. It clearly shows the huge divergence of opinion about what has happened to Mr Gricar. It was taped in two parts, one part aired as an hour show before Sandusky's crimes were known, and it, like the " Disappeared" show on I.D. channel, was updated partially in late 2011. There are 6 segments for the one show.

This is the link to the first segment, which has links to the rest.
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/45702425#45702425

It was broadcast 12/16/11.

J. J. in Phila said:

It was broadcast 12/16/11.

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Is the exact date significant, as in, am I missing something? I just rewatched this video too, and I think some of the footage was " older" and some of it was updated to include Sandusky's crimes, which, IMO, have no bearing on Mr. Gricar's disappearance. I included this info in my earlier post, for accuracy's sake.

I wish we had access to the first and original " Dateline" and the original " Disappeared" before Sandusky reared his monstrous head. Both had more " talking head" segments, which were the parts I was wanting to focus on today. Darn.

SeekingJana said:

Is the exact date significant, as in, am I missing something? I just rewatched this video too, and I think some of the footage was " older" and some of it was updated to include Sandusky's crimes, which, IMO, have no bearing on Mr. Gricar's disappearance. I included this info in my earlier post, for accuracy's sake.

I wish we had access to the first and original " Dateline" and the original " Disappeared" before Sandusky reared his monstrous head. Both had more " talking head" segments, which were the parts I was wanting to focus on today. Darn.

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There was a Dateline in May of 2006. This primarily LE at the time, MTM and DZ, LG and PEF. I don't think TG was involved; BB was not.

The transcript is here: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12756052/

The existence of the "Mystery Woman" was first widely publicized at this time. It had been published in Cleveland Free Times originally; it was copied and posted here: District Attorney Ray Frank Gricar - Cold Case Investigations The date that I have for publication 11/16/05.

The "Mystery Woman" may have been mentioned in the old Q & A site of the CDT even prior to that, over the summer of 2005.

Thank you for some excellent case links. You are a treasure trove of info.
For some reason, I've never saved Gricar case info on my computers. I think I've gone through 5 laptops since I started posting on the case, which is probably the reason.
I have been searching in vain for the first "Dateline", so thanks for the transcript especially.

I know there WAS a show which featured Steve Sloane with his famous quotes about " He would do this to outsmart the cops", paraphrased slightly, and other sound bytes from Sloane which really added to one's understanding of how Mr. Gricar might have used the case of Mel Wiley and the book 20/20 Vision to more or less leave non-detected but probably suspected as such.

Were Sloane's statements and segments cut due to his personal circumstances, perhaps? I'm not finding what it is he used to say often and loudly in favor of his close friend walking away!! It's frustrating.

Which, of all the documentation available to the public right at hand ( no forms need mailing, etc) do you consider to be the most vital, if any, and why?

One thing that really got to me today was listening to Darryl Zaccagni, former police chief, talking on the linked " Dateline" segment ( most recent one) about how the police looked for Ray AND a woman at all the local hotels, at the bus station and train station. NOTHING was said about looking for him alone at any of these places.
Why was it a foregone conclusion that he was with the MW throughout the night of April 15th? I've never thought this was set in stone at all.

The first " Dateline" transcript practically echoes the same. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12756052/


"Darryl Zaccagni: We had a report in the street of shops that in the man’s mind, he was with another woman. He described her as 5’9 , short brownish black hair your length, very good looking, in her 30s - early 40s maybe. He felt they were together but they weren’t romantically together.
Police canvassed hotels and homes nearby, searching for the mystery woman, with no luck."

SeekingJana said:

I know there WAS a show which featured Steve Sloane with his famous quotes about " He would do this to outsmart the cops", paraphrased slightly, and other sound bytes from Sloane which really added to one's understanding of how Mr. Gricar might have used the case of Mel Wiley and the book 20/20 Vision to more or less leave non-detected but probably suspected as such.

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Sloane was not in that one. It was on the Discovery Channel's Disappeared, which aired on 2/28/11, I think.

Which, of all the documentation available to the public right at hand ( no forms need mailing, etc) do you consider to be the most vital, if any, and why?

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If we are including new stories, and limit it to the disappearance, I would say "Missed Leads." It provides a foundation. Most of what we have been talking about for months has a foundation there.

It was a game changer: http://www.centredaily.com/2010/05/12/2397371_the-week-of-the-media-hurricane.html It changed how the case was investigated, the politics of it, public perception, provided some circumstantial evidence.

Since the initial disappearance, there has never been a single thing that was so groundbreaking, and so changed everything so quickly.

J. J. in Phila said:

Sloane was not in that one. It was on the Discovery Channel's Disappeared, which aired on 2/28/11, I think.



If we are including new stories, and limit it to the disappearance, I would say "Missed Leads." It provides a foundation. Most of what we have been talking about for months has a foundation there.

It was a game changer: http://www.centredaily.com/2010/05/12/2397371_the-week-of-the-media-hurricane.html It changed how the case was investigated, the politics of it, public perception, provided some circumstantial evidence.

Since the initial disappearance, there has never been a single thing that was so groundbreaking, and so changed everything so quickly.

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Thanks for the lead on where to look for Sloane's segment. IMO, it's different, less material. I think they may have cut to include Sandusky. :notgood:

Agree with you that Bosak's column was a huge wake- up call to LE. I think that's the major and best thing to come of "Missed Leads" . Obviously, you can look back with a journalist's eyes and know what has impacted the totality of the case and public perception more than I can. It's hard to look backwards knowing these things now but not then, not all of them.

I really appreciate your input.
More recently and also probably more innately controversially, I'd say the 2 packets of financial data filed and gathered are hugely important case documents, but since the Financial Disclosure statements are not up on this site quite yet, it's not really fair to discuss them in depth without all interested parties being able to see them. So I won't.
I also don't think I have the totality of what you obtained, although identical speaks for itself.... I have also not seen every document that Trackergd provided, just the summaries, which I think are important as they, too, show very low assets.
No liabilities and very little, one might say token assets on Trackergd's forms which he/she has discussed here was extremely unexpected, by me at least.

This is a great blog post. Thank you for reposting it. http://www.centredaily.com/2010/05/1...hurricane.html

I'd missed it, probably because there were so many things going on with the case at the time. I have always considered walkaway to be a valid possible explanation for Mr. Gricar's disappearance from the beginning, but of course, the belated info about the woman seen with Mr. Gricar at the SOS probably changed many minds and theories. I had always theorized that he might have left either with a female or to go to where a woman was waiting for him ( foreign country) but it was and is just part of my theories.
Like most open-minded people, I have several theories, and some are open- ended as in-" I just don't know what happened, or what his fate".

There are so many missing persons' cases here on WS, hundreds of missing adults, and for most of them, no matter how long missing( within a normal human lifespan) , NO ONE insists that the person is dead.. It seems to be a very respectful thing to hold onto hope and to keep looking for more missed clues. This is how I approach this case as well.

Missing means missing in the absence of evidence of foul play, and there is NO evidence of foul play in this case at this time. None. Never has been.

Respectfully snipped, as always.

SeekingJana said:

Thanks for the lead on where to look for Sloane's segment. IMO, it's different, less material. I think they may have cut to include Sandusky. :notgood:

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The only television program (excluding newscasts) that Sloane appeared in was Disappeared, on 2/28/11. I think that transcript is the full 2006 program, unredacted.

More recently and also probably more innately controversially, I'd say the 2 packets of financial data filed and gathered are hugely important case documents, but since the Financial Disclosure statements are not up on this site quite yet, it's not really fair to discuss them in depth without all interested parties being able to see them. So I won't.

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I just loaded the redacted versions, so they should be up under my photos.

There is not too much depth. RFG was required to report income, including interest income, from a single source, above $1300, including tax exempt income. He made no report of it. So, either RFG had no income, committed a misdemeanor by not reporting it, or wasn't bright enough to fill out a form after at least 18 years of doing so. I would say the third option approaches a zero percent chance for the explanation.

That could explain why LE has drifted away from foul play and toward suicide or walkaway, among other things.

I also don't think I have the totality of what you obtained, although identical speaks for itself.... I have also not seen every document that Trackergd provided, just the summaries, which I think are important as they, too, show very low assets.
No liabilities and very little, one might say token assets on Trackergd's forms which he/she has discussed here was extremely unexpected, by me at least.

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I have not seen Trackergd's documentation, but their could be explanations, like most of RFG's money being in joint accounts.

One question should be if RFG was doing any retirement planning. If not, that could be a good indication he wasn't planning to be around to collect it.

J.J., what do the Financial Disclosure statements, along with Trackergd's financial reports, indicate or suggest to you in toto?

Note to Admin: I am asking an individual poster's opinion because this is the person who did the work and who has great knowledge of documentation of Income/ Gifts/ Owned property himself.

Anyone is welcome to join us in discussion. This is not a " he said" then " she said" play by play. We genuinely want to know what happened to Ray F. Gricar. .

Here are the redacted version of the 2004 form.

The 2005 Statement of Financial Interest (Redacted)

Note that only the street address and telephone is redacted and it is the same on both forms.

It is very helpful to have these documents.
Am I reading them correctly in that Mr. Gricar claims NO interest- bearing accounts, along with no real estate nor creditors?

I've never known a person of some means to live without either some reportable debt or major assets.

Does this preclude him from having savings accounts, annuities, trust funds which I think do bear interest, etc? I don't think a D.A. would LIE on his Financials form, do you? Not over something that really looks stranger as it was signed.

Could this mean he had a large portion of his income hidden or transferred to a foreign bank in some way I don't understand? IOW, if the assets were not on U.S. soil, then maybe they were not reportable to U.S. authorities? Does it work that way? I spend money now, that's about it.

Thanks again for posting these 2 forms for all to see. One signed by Mr. Gricar, the other signed by Lara, sadly.

Respectfully snipped.

SeekingJana said:

what do the Financial Disclosure statements, along with Trackergd's financial reports, indicate or suggest to you in toto?

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Not as much as one might think.

On the surface, it would, reasonably strongly point to a guy publicly planning to retire not taking action for retirement. Deferred income is possible, but why didn't LE or the family say so? **Ray had his money in retirement plans** answers many questions. That has not been the answer either LE or the family has given to date.

Okay we've said a few things about where the money could have gone:

1. A drug habit? There is no evidence for that to date. We'd probably be talking about cocaine, and a lot of it, not a few joints. I think we can put this aside, at least for now (though if someone wants to argue it, go ahead).

2. Gambling? There has been no suggestion for that, no trips to LV or AC; no trips to the track. Maybe a Lotto ticket occasionally, but nothing large. No reports of playing cards with "the boys." Same as above.

3. Investing and losing money? Day trading? Possible, but it would produce records. Sloane said on Disappeared, talking about investments was like speaking "Chinese" to him. That should have produced a record, and why wasn't that disclosed

[These three could point to suicide.]

4. A woman other than PEF? Well, that should have produced a record. $16,000 in cash over 2 1/2 years is not a lot of money to "keep" a woman.

5. Assets that do not produce a paper trail? Gold? Foreign account that was last accessed prior to 4/15/05? Well, it would have been a good investment. There might be a problem claiming that was a "joint assent" and not included in probate. It also becomes a question of why it wasn't disclosed.

6. RFG didn't save up for retirement because he wasn't planning to be there. Suicide could explain him spending his money in the last years, or doing some estate planning. We don't have huge spending between August 2001 and April 2005.

I think this will lower the the odd on foul play a bit. Because there is a possibility that estate planning after RFG's disappearance, it will probably do more so than the estate file would. It is a piece of the puzzle, but not conclusive.

Anyone is welcome to join us in discussion. This is not a " he said" then " she said" play by play. We genuinely want to know what happened to Ray F. Gricar. .

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I concur. :loveyou:

OK, let me try to restate things a bit then. When we had Tracker's statements about no estate, no will, and the assets were very very low, some of us questioned how that could be the case then.

Now, it appears to me that there are 2 more documents ( for a year and a half, including the last working year Ray was planning to have) which also show a total lack of ASSETS.

Where are the ASSETS?

If he was doing 1-3 on your list, people would have suspected, especially looking back after he disappeared. Also, casino owners, bar owners, day traders, day trader offices would remember him. ( I lived about 5 miles from where Mark Barton shot himself- infamous day trader who killed his entire family near Atlanta 10-12 yrs ago and I learned a lot from the news about how utterly destructive day trading is and how that man was addicted).

I have always wondered if there was another woman in the wings, but definitely not center stage. Not large cash purchases or anything of the sort. If there should have been a true MW, I'm happy for him, but sad for Patty.

I discount suicide because not saving still doesn't mean " spending". He could have been depressed and still saved money for Patty and Lara and maybe the nephews couldn't he? Plus, it would have most likely have shown up in other areas of his life that he was planning to commit suicide. Would he have found joy in a day of antiquing? Would he have enjoyed a 50 mile drive in his Mini if he was depressed? There are degrees of depression.. but I have never seen a photo of him which made me go " Whoa", and I am in the business of diagnosing and treatment depression. I know it when I see it, usually. I could be wrong, but IF he committed suicide, IMO, it would be connected to a terminal illness that he didn't want to burden anyone with.
AND I believe he would have left letters/ notes. He was even concerned about the dog being fed on time!!!!

He was not a man prone to excesses of addictive behaviors from what we know. He was not a skinflint. He loved his daughter and he loved his girlfriend, although no one can know what went on behind closed doors...

So how and where did he provide for those he loved, leaving his own needs out of it? He made over $125,000 a year in 2005. A good salary. NO debt.
Where's the money? I cannot grasp where the money is.

Do we have any financial wizards here? Can anyone help us see how he did invisible financial planning? I'm either needing to go for remedial financial planning or I am not seeing any listed on his required disclosure forms.

My father filled out those Financial Disclosure forms for our state of residence for over 20 years. He would have cut his own hand off before he would have lied and signed his extremely good name, and I tend to think Mr. Gricar found a money " escape" that we haven't found or cannot find.

At this point, my theory leans towards foreign accounts. I think bank regs. changed regarding foreign transfers due to terrorism, didn't they? This might have changed his plans or his timeline for his plans. IDK.
I hope so, because that would be a winning situation for him, I think. IMO.

SJ

Respectfully snipped.

SeekingJana said:

OK, let me try to restate things a bit then. When we had Tracker's statements about no estate, no will, and the assets were very very low, some of us questioned how that could be the case then.

The low estate can be explained by some simple estate planning. Joint accounts do not go into probate (though that is taxable).

Now, it appears to me that there are 2 more documents ( for a year and a half, including the last working year Ray was planning to have) which also show a total lack of ASSETS.

Where are the ASSETS?

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They show a lack of interest generating assets. From what little I understand, things like a 401 k and/or a Roth IRA could account for a bit (I check when it started). Possibly, there could have been some sort of deferred income possibility (though it wouldn't make too much sense). What does not make sense is the family and LE not saying it in 8 1/2 years.

That Atlanta incident was the one that came to mind. The amount of cash withdrawals would preclude a "kept woman," unless there was a paper trail.

At this point, my theory leans towards foreign accounts. I think bank regs. changed regarding foreign transfers due to terrorism, didn't they? This might have changed his plans or his timeline for his plans. IDK.
I hope so, because that would be a winning situation for him, I think. IMO.

SJ

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Foreign accounts are relatively safe and tend to produce higher interest. A foreign account (s), unless it was purposely hidden, that generates more than $1300 interest, still should have been on the financial statements.

Even proving hidden assets would not prove that RFG's disappearance was voluntary. People can hide assets and still commit suicide or be the victim of foul play. It adds more circumstantial evidence to voluntary departure and may answer the question of how RFG would be living after that. The more confirms those questions about RFG's low assets first raised in "Missed Leads," than it provides solid answers.

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Since somebody asked me.

RFG announced his retirement in January 2004. He'd indicated that he had been planning it and keeping it secret. http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_204d4f62-7c4d-5379-8d0e-f85de597d553.html

Assuming that he was being honest about planning it, and the timing looks like he was, RFG should have been doing things with his money to save for retirement. He should have been doing it for years.

Those things would include putting money into retirement accounts and saving up money in regular accounts. There would be some potential tax advantages as well. We'd expect that.

Okay, what do we have? LE saying there is about a total of $100 K in joint accounts (which wouldn't show up in the estate, but would be taxable). From what I can tell, 401 k) and Roth IRA's are limited in the amount of contribution.

So, maybe he had this money and put it into traditional savings vehicles, CD's, mutual funds, even Savings Bonds. The first two should produce reportable interest on the Financial Disclosure Statements, if above $1300 per year per source. Using one source has some financial advantages.

Okay, if RFG was saving up for retirement, why not just say so? Neither LE nor the family is saying, **Oh, Ray moved his money into retirement accounts.** It certainly would never make RFG look bad if he was preparing to retire, since that was his announced intent. Who is going to blame someone for making sound financial decisions at retirement. Further, if you had this information, and you didn't want it to look like walkaway or suicide, why not just release that he had most of his money in retirement funds.

This points to RFG not saving up for retirement.

Some of the money could be accounted for by estate planning. RFG could have put a lot of money solely in LG's name. He could have purchased a single premium life insurance policy. Those things would explain the lack of money, but RFG wouldn't be able to use that money for retirement. Estate planning would point to RFG not planning to retire, but die, either in reality or legally. There is about a 0% probability that, in 2004, RFG could have known that he would be murdered in 2005.

There might be at least some evidence of estate planning that we know of, e.g., putting the Mini in his girlfriend's name.