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  1. #1

    The Ligatures

    The ligatures were not stage props they were functional, they were used to pose the body. The reason there is 17" of cord from the loop around the neck to the handle is the handle had to clear the head as it was brought up behind the head and placed into a holder or one end of the stick was placed into a hole with the other end protruding out. This raised the torso to a vertical position, either seated, kneeling or on the feet. I don't think there was a free hanging suspension. The reason there was 15" of cord between the loops on the wrists is that cord was brought up over the head and placed over whatever held the handle or over the protruding end of the stick. This raised the arms to an upright postition, the same position they were found in in rigor. The 15" of cord between the wrist loops would not have restricted movement of the arms much at all and could not have fooled investigators as being a binding. The ligatures were not constructed to decieve police. They were functional as posing devices. This is a classic posing of a body after death for reasons known only to the perpetrator. The raising of arms has well known symbolism; surrender, praise, beseeching and others. Whatever it meant to Patsy can only guessed, mine is it had something to do with Victory!

    This is my opinion.
    Last edited by Blue Bottle 01; 11-11-2013 at 12:26 PM.

  2. #2
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    New Mexico, USA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bottle 01 View Post
    The ligatures were not stage props they were functional, they were used to pose the body. The reason there is 17" of cord from the loop around the neck to the handle is the handle had to clear the head as it was brought up behind the head and placed into a holder or one end of the stick was placed into a hole with the other end protruding out. This raised the torso to a vertical position, either seated, kneeling or on the feet. I don't think there was a free hanging suspension. The reason there was 15" of cord between the loops on the wrists is that cord was brought up over the head and placed over whatever held the handle or over the protruding end of the stick. This raised the arms to an upright postition, the same position they were found in in rigor. The 15" of cord between the wrist loops would not have restricted movement of the arms much at all and could not have fooled investigators as being a binding. The ligatures were not constructed to decieve police. They were functional as posing devices. This is a classic posing of a body after death for reasons known only to the perpetrator. The raising of arms has well known symbolism; surrender, praise, beseeching and others. Whatever it meant to Patsy can only guessed, mine is it had something to do with Victory!

    This is my opinion.

    Weren't the wrist loops so loose that the hands could easily slip out?
    ​Blessed are they with nothing to say and the wisdom not to say it.

    Teghan Alyssa Skiba - never forget.

  3. #3
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    Oct 2010
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    1,704
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    Weren't the wrist loops so loose that the hands could easily slip out?
    I think they were loose. But I don't think this would mean that they could be used in this way, if the person was not conscious, as long as the loop didn't extend the length of the hand it could keep them up, say if the loop was running parallel to the hand, or the hand was simply suspended inside it.

    I don't think the cords were staging, I think they were done for a purpose. Whether that was restraint or posing, I don't know, but I tend to believe more in some sort of naive, less effectively designed than possible, restraint vs posing her body for what seems would amount to a ritual. But stranger things have happened.

    If posed, would have she still been alive because the pattern of livor mortis found?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    Weren't the wrist loops so loose that the hands could easily slip out?
    NO. The crime scene photos clearly show the loop remaining on the left arm was tight enough to keep the sweater from slipping through.

    In my opinion.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ozazure View Post

    If posed, would have she still been alive because the pattern of livor mortis found?

    No. The neck cord was tightened enough to cause death.

    The body was posed, viewed, then taken down and placed in the small room where rigor and liver mortis set it.

    In my opinion.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bottle 01 View Post
    NO. The crime scene photos clearly show the loop remaining on the left arm was tight enough to keep the sweater from slipping through.

    In my opinion.
    Do you believe JonBenet was positioned as described by JR in his 1998 BDA Interview?
    25 and, I tried to untie her
    0167
    1 arms; they were tied up behind her head.
    2 LOU SMIT: Were they tied tight?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, very tight.[/b]
    4 LOU SMIT: They were very tight?
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: I noticed a spot on her throat,
    6 below the surface.
    7 LOU SMIT: How do you know they were tied
    8 tight?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Because they were -- you know,
    10 her skin was swollen around. And they were not
    11 easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and
    12 I just picked her up carried her upstairs. I was
    13 screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.
    14 And then I brought her upstairs into the
    15 living room and later there, at one point, tried
    16 to untie the knot further, and Linda Arndt stopped
    17 me from doing it.
    18 LOU SMIT: The knot?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
    20 LOU SMIT: Where?
    21 JOHN RAMSEY: Up on her arms. And I didn't
    22 notice the -- as I noticed the blood below the
    23 surface, but I didn't notice this cord around the
    24 neck.
    ...
    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: They were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together.
    15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of
    16 them? Were you successful?
    17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of
    18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was
    19 starting to realize that that would do any good.
    20 MIKE KANE: And so at that point then, was
    21 it then you just took her right upstairs?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just picked her up and ran
    23 screaming upstairs.
    (John Ramsey, BDA INTVW 1998)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    Do you believe JonBenet was positioned as described by JR in his 1998 BDA Interview?
    (John Ramsey, BDA INTVW 1998)
    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: They were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together

    The hands close together does not match the model I made nor does it match the artist's rendition of the position of the body in rigor when John brought it upstairs. The model had the hands to the side of the head and just above the ears.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bottle 01 View Post
    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: They were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together

    The hands close together does not match the model I made nor does it match the artist's rendition of the position of the body in rigor when John brought it upstairs. The model had the hands to the side of the head and just above the ears.
    Do you have an image you could post of the model you made?...

    It appears, to me, that JonBenet's hands were rather close in the crime scene photo of her upper body (side view, arms in rigor, paper sacks over her hands).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    Do you have an image you could post of the model you made?...

    It appears, to me, that JonBenet's hands were rather close in the crime scene photo of her upper body (side view, arms in rigor, paper sacks over her hands).
    I'm not tech savy enough to post an image. But I just made it again and the hands were well above the head.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bottle 01 View Post
    I'm not tech savy enough to post an image. But I just made it again and the hands were well above the head.
    So, like "touchdown"?... JR's description seems more like "time out".


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    8,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bottle 01 View Post
    The ligatures were not stage props they were functional, they were used to pose the body. The reason there is 17" of cord from the loop around the neck to the handle is the handle had to clear the head as it was brought up behind the head and placed into a holder or one end of the stick was placed into a hole with the other end protruding out. This raised the torso to a vertical position, either seated, kneeling or on the feet. I don't think there was a free hanging suspension. The reason there was 15" of cord between the loops on the wrists is that cord was brought up over the head and placed over whatever held the handle or over the protruding end of the stick. This raised the arms to an upright postition, the same position they were found in in rigor. The 15" of cord between the wrist loops would not have restricted movement of the arms much at all and could not have fooled investigators as being a binding. The ligatures were not constructed to decieve police. They were functional as posing devices. This is a classic posing of a body after death for reasons known only to the perpetrator. The raising of arms has well known symbolism; surrender, praise, beseeching and others. Whatever it meant to Patsy can only guessed, mine is it had something to do with Victory!

    This is my opinion.
    There could not have been any posing after death. Livor mortis rules that out. There was NO livor pattern that indicated that she was in ANY other position than the way she was found- on her back, head cocked to the right, legs straight out. Her arms were found bent at almost a right angle at the elbow. But if you know how rigor mortis works, you know that as rigor increases it ratchets the muscles tighter and tighter and can actually pull the arms into a position like that. Her arms may have been straight up against her head or across her chest or at her sides and been pulled into that "boxer's pose" as rigor increased.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    14,189
    There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for the arms to be above the head. It would definitely have to be a psycho who did these things. Some of it, like the arms up and mucus left on the cheek makes me highly doubt that there was much remorse or any comforting done by covering with the blanket.

    DeeDee : Could the arms be pulled above the head during rigor?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    There could not have been any posing after death. Livor mortis rules that out. There was NO livor pattern that indicated that she was in ANY other position than the way she was found- on her back, head cocked to the right, legs straight out. Her arms were found bent at almost a right angle at the elbow. But if you know how rigor mortis works, you know that as rigor increases it ratchets the muscles tighter and tighter and can actually pull the arms into a position like that. Her arms may have been straight up against her head or across her chest or at her sides and been pulled into that "boxer's pose" as rigor increased.
    She was posed and then taken down and placed in the small room well before rigor. IMO.

  14. #14
    From JonBenet Inside The Murder Investigation:

    The two sisters settled in beside Patsy and read the Bible to her, all three waving their arms in the air and moaning. One said she had a vision in which JonBenet was an angel. A police officer later noticed that the Bible verses dealt with forgiveness. - p39.

    In prayer Patsy's sisters, Pam and Polly, waved their arms over their heads and loudley called for heavenly help. - p59.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for the arms to be above the head..
    That is right. There was a psychotic reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    It would definitely have to be a psycho who did these things.
    Psycho is a colloquialism. Psychotic is the appropriate scientific term.

    IMO.

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