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  1. #1
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    My Appeal to IDI

    Do you know what would had to have happened in order for your theory to be the correct one? The killer would have to hold her down WHILE he was making the garrote on her body, THEN he'd have to strangle her with one hand while using his other two hands (yes, you read that right!) to manually separate her labia enough to jab the end of the paintbrush in while he was doing it. AND, he'd have to achieve the monumental feat of bisecting her body so that her lower body was facing up (consistent with the penetration angle) while her UPPER body was facing down! I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Do you know what would had to have happened in order for your theory to be the correct one? The killer would have to hold her down WHILE he was making the garrote on her body, THEN he'd have to strangle her with one hand while using his other two hands (yes, you read that right!) to manually separate her labia enough to jab the end of the paintbrush in while he was doing it. AND, he'd have to achieve the monumental feat of bisecting her body so that her lower body was facing up (consistent with the penetration angle) while her UPPER body was facing down! I'm afraid you'll have to explain that one to me.
    Come again?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    Come again?...
    That's right. Majority IDI opinion holds that JB was alive and conscious while she was molested and strangled. But the "intruder" would need three hands to hold her down while he tied the garrote onto her neck, because we know (thanks to her hair in the knots) it was not made beforehand.

    THEN, he'd have to twist her body so that her lower body was facing upward while her lower body was facing downward, since the garrote would have to be applied from behind, while her vaginal injury (from THAT night anyway) was inflicted at a penetration angle from above.

    THEN, he'd have to manually open her labia to insert whatever it was he used, which would require both hands.

    This guy would need more arms than a Hindu god!
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    That's right. Majority IDI opinion holds that JB was alive and conscious while she was molested and strangled. But the "intruder" would need three hands to hold her down while he tied the garrote onto her neck, because we know (thanks to her hair in the knots) it was not made beforehand.

    THEN, he'd have to twist her body so that her lower body was facing upward while her lower body was facing downward, since the garrote would have to be applied from behind, while her vaginal injury (from THAT night anyway) was inflicted at a penetration angle from above.

    THEN, he'd have to manually open her labia to insert whatever it was he used, which would require both hands.

    This guy would need more arms than a Hindu god!
    I'm not sure how you arrived at these conclusions, care to elaborate? Is your interpretation of the injuries supported by the AR &/or expert opinions? If so, how?

  5. #5
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    There is a very easy answer to this:


    There was no intruder.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    I'm not sure how you arrived at these conclusions, care to elaborate?
    You bet I do!

    1) The garrote. Since JB's hair was found tied into the knot at the back of JB's neck, that means that it was tied onto her, not made prior to her being there. Just how likely does it seem that she would complacently allow him to do this? THEN, he'd have to strangle her from behind, since the knot was behind her.

    2) The molestation. JB's outer labia were not scratched or damaged, so whatever object was inserted was not merely shoved into her. With girls of that age, the labia stay closed unless manually separated. That means that one of the intruder's hands had to hold her labia open while his other hand inserted the object (whatever you think that was.) Again, would a live, conscious JB allow a stranger to do any of that?

    3) And this is most pressing of all. The Intruder Theory (or, perhaps more accurately, the Lou Smit theory) holds that the intruder was strangling her from behind while molesting her at the same time in some kind of horrible "game." But, as I've shown, she would have to be lying on her stomach for him to strangle her AND lying on her back for him to have molested her and her vaginal injury to match the penetration angle. To do that, he would have needed to "twist" her body so that her head was facing down while her legs were facing up.

    So, let's count how many arms this guy would need to do all of this:

    At least 1 to hold her down.

    2 to tie the garrote around her neck.

    2 to hold her vagina open and molest her.

    That's FIVE arms. Even if I were to allow (and I DON'T) that he used a knee to hold her down, he'd still need at least THREE. Hey, were their any Greek mythological monsters or nefarious Hindu gods bopping around Boulder at Christmas of '96?

    Is your interpretation of the injuries supported by the AR &/or expert opinions? If so, how?
    You'd better believe it, Mama2JML!

    The autopsy report itself shows that JB's hair was tied into the knots. The AR and photos also show the knot and handle at the back of her neck. That's one.

    The AR described the injured area of JB's vagina as being at the "7:00 position." If you look at a clock-face head-on, you'll see that 7:00 is down and slightly to the left. As Cyril Wecht pointed out in his book, that's consistent with a right-handed person either inserting their finger or the paintbrush handle with JB on her back. Add to that: what I said a few paragraphs above about needing to separate the labia of a female that young is taken from John McCann, a top child abuse expert who also worked on the case. That's two.

    Anything you want to know, just ask me. That's what I'm here for.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  7. #7
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    SuperDave:

    I am 100% a RDI and a fan of Super Dave, but what if someone who is an IDI suggested there were two intruders?
    ​Blessed are they with nothing to say and the wisdom not to say it.

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  8. #8
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    (respectively snipped)
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post

    2) The molestation. JB's outer labia were not scratched or damaged, so whatever object was inserted was not merely shoved into her. With girls of that age, the labia stay closed unless manually separated. That means that one of the intruder's hands had to hold her labia open while his other hand inserted the object (whatever you think that was.) Again, would a live, conscious JB allow a stranger to do any of that?
    Hi, SD. It's good to see you back, and hopefully finishing up on getting your much anticipated book published.

    I agree with most of what you've said in the above post. But I have to disagree with the above snipped portion -- even if it came from a doctor/expert. From the AR, it says:
    On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch.
    That indicates to me that there might be either a bruise or an abrasion on the outer labia. In fact, not knowing the orientation of the 1" x 3/8", we might be able to infer that the 3/8" is from the width of the paintbrush. I would point out also that this injury on the right labia majora would coincide with the 7:00 position that (from AR) "appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen."

    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as “freedom of speech.”

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    SuperDave:

    I am 100% a RDI and a fan of Super Dave, but what if someone who is an IDI suggested there were two intruders?
    IDI has trouble enough explaining how ONE intruder could do all the things they are supposed to do without leaving an evidence trail a blind man could follow. The idea that TWO or more guys tromped through the house without a trace not only defies common sense, it defies belief.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    (respectively snipped)
    Hi, SD. It's good to see you back, and hopefully finishing up on getting your much anticipated book published.
    Those buggers at the publishing company want it perfect. After five years, I don't care if it's perfect!

    I agree with most of what you've said in the above post. But I have to disagree with the above snipped portion -- even if it came from a doctor/expert. From the AR, it says:
    On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violet discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch.
    That indicates to me that there might be either a bruise or an abrasion on the outer labia. In fact, not knowing the orientation of the 1" x 3/8", we might be able to infer that the 3/8" is from the width of the paintbrush. I would point out also that this injury on the right labia majora would coincide with the 7:00 position that (from AR) "appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen."
    Good catch, otg. I goofed in my wording. The expert did not say that there was no marking on the outer labia; that was my mistake. It doesn't really change anything he said, though, does it? They'd still have to separate her labia to get inside.

    (I apologize to all if I seem to be breezy in my description of these horrid acts, but if I'm not blunt, I'll never get across what I'm saying.)

    Also, your find brings up something that I've often mentioned, just not here, since it's not germane to the issue (not yet, anyway): that the person who inflicted the genital wound seemed to be fumbling.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
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    Could the faint violet coloration be from the previous injury? I've always thought a child jabbing her forcefully with an object would have no judgement and would have inflicted more damage. The previous injury maybe, but not that night.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    Could the faint violet coloration be from the previous injury? I've always thought a child jabbing her forcefully with an object would have no judgement and would have inflicted more damage. The previous injury maybe, but not that night.
    Bruising goes through "stages", as most of us have seen on our own bodies. healing bruises are "yellowish/brown/purple" The fresher ones are violet. The coroner would be able to tell whether the bruises were acute (happened at or near the time of death) or chronic (happened previously). And dead bodies do not bruise, so she was alive when it was inflicted.
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  13. #13
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    Im amazed that while there are now 39489239834 theories for RDI there can only be one IDI theory.

    I don't believe it happened like that at all. I believe that it is IDI but I do not believe at all that it happened in that manner.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    You bet I do!

    1) The garrote. Since JB's hair was found tied into the knot at the back of JB's neck, that means that it was tied onto her, not made prior to her being there. Just how likely does it seem that she would complacently allow him to do this? THEN, he'd have to strangle her from behind, since the knot was behind her.
    I'm not sure where to begin...
    Whatever, I'll roll with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    2) The molestation. JB's outer labia were not scratched or damaged, so whatever object was inserted was not merely shoved into her. With girls of that age, the labia stay closed unless manually separated. That means that one of the intruder's hands had to hold her labia open while his other hand inserted the object (whatever you think that was.) Again, would a live, conscious JB allow a stranger to do any of that?
    She didn't have a choice anyway you dice it. Regardless, I concur with OTG & his analysis of the AR. McCann also spoke of bruising on JonBenet's inner thigh, consistent with a forceful separation of the legs. (The Bonita Papers, was that your source for McCann's statement?)

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    3) And this is most pressing of all. The Intruder Theory (or, perhaps more accurately, the Lou Smit theory) holds that the intruder was strangling her from behind while molesting her at the same time in some kind of horrible "game." But, as I've shown, she would have to be lying on her stomach for him to strangle her AND lying on her back for him to have molested her and her vaginal injury to match the penetration angle. To do that, he would have needed to "twist" her body so that her head was facing down while her legs were facing up.
    Hmmm, this doesn't sound familiar. Nope, doesn't ring a bell. It's not EXACTLY (or even kinda, sorta, remotely) the IDI majority's POV. You haven't described Smit's train of thought well, either.

    So, let's count how many arms this guy would need to do all of this:

    At least 1 to hold her down.

    2 to tie the garrote around her neck.

    2 to hold her vagina open and molest her.

    That's FIVE arms. Even if I were to allow (and I DON'T) that he used a knee to hold her down, he'd still need at least THREE. Hey, were their any Greek mythological monsters or nefarious Hindu gods bopping around Boulder at Christmas of '96?
    I guess those extra arms account for some of Kolar's "unique", unsourced DNA profiles.

    I'm really having difficulty understanding your portrayal of "the IDI majority". Your arguments do not accurately describe the majority, or even the minority, of IDIs with whom I engage in case discussion.
    Last edited by Mama2JML; 11-13-2013 at 10:06 PM.

  15. #15
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    To be fair Mama, Dave has spoken to a lot more IDI here than you and he even used to BE IDI.

    And there have been a lot of IDI through here over the years.

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