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  1. #1

    I still have an open mind as to how this happened and who did it

    Please see the attachment. The text is included below which I attempted to format:

    I still have an open mind concerning this case and cannot rule anything out.

    What was the motive?

    Accidental death followed by an intentional cover-up (RDI)

    Molestation (external meaning not within the immediate family) (IDI)

    Jealousy / vindictive act towards JR with intent to hurt him / his family (IDI)

    Cover-up for molestation by immediate family member (Could have been premeditated or accidental but some of the events afterwards were to cover-up for what would have been discovered) (RDI)

    Kidnapping to extort money foiled turning into a murder (IDI)

    If IDI…

    Was this supposed to be a kidnapping or was molestation the motive?

    Makes sense:

    Unknown DNA is valid and relevant

    Murder of victim / other findings performed by someone “detached” (not the immediate family) seems more believable considering what was done to JBR

    Passing of the polygraph test by JR and PR

    Does not make sense:

    Length of the ransom note (if it was written after the murder). It could have been written prior with the intent of a kidnapping or to confuse (but it really does not make sense)

    Why actually leave the ransom note when the victim was killed on the premises and left behind? Why wasn’t the RN taken after the murder?

    Why indicate that it is a kidnapping but then perform the activities that happened in the basement? It seems as though it was quite a risk.

    Pineapple in digestive track – who fed her the pineapple?

    Evidence of historical sexual abuse likely was caused by someone else (unless this person was close to the family and had done this prior - unlikely)

    JR and PR passed the polygraph test

    If RDI…

    If it was an accident:

    Makes sense:

    Hurried / disheveled / staged crime scene as a cover-up

    IMO, the likeliest scenario if RDI would be BDI as PR or JR likely would not have covered for the other under the pressure if one of them had done it. If it was accidental, PR would be 2nd on my list of suspects because I don’t believe that it would have been JR if it was accidental.

    Pineapple was a snack before bed which extends the timeline of how long JB was awake meaning there would be less time for someone external

    PR wearing the same clothes as the day before because she was up all night assisting with the staging

    Does not make sense:

    If it was initially accidental, why not call 9-1-1 and try to save her vs. hitting her in the head or strangulation (not sure which came first) to kill her unless she was already dead when her parents learned about the tragedy.

    JR and PR would know that either they would be found guilty or the responsible party would never be found (because it was them). This would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Why the cover-up (unless it was to cover for the prior sexual abuse or what happened near her death)?

    If it was premeditated:


    IMO, it would have been BR (because of something like jealousy or aggressive sexual tendencies) or JR (2nd most likely on my list in this scenario because of something such as molestation).

    If BDI, a decision was made at some point to stage. I cannot believe that JR or PR would have constructed or arranged for the strangulation device. IMO, JB would have been dead when they found out for this scenario.

    If JR did it, I don’t think that BR or PR knew what happened.

    Other thoughts: Nobody knows how they would react in the situation encountered by the R family. Put yourself in this position… If you woke up, your daughter was missing, and the police started asking questions about what your son was doing the night before, it might seem reasonable to get him away from the questioning, etc. because obviously he had nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if BDI, it also would make sense to get him out of there if you were part of the cover-up.

    If you were JR or PR, had nothing to do with the murder and felt as though you were the primary target of the investigation, would you be so frustrated that the police were not looking for other suspects that you would get your own group involved to ensure that you were protected? It seems reasonable if everyone was pointing at you because of the circumstances and lack of evidence pointing to an outsider.

    I really want to believe that JR, PR, and BR had nothing to do with it. Due to the description of the crime scene, I cannot see how anyone could do that to a family member unless a person was too young to comprehend – even then it does not seem likely. If BR grew up without issues, it seems hard to imagine that he would have had anything to do with it although I do not know how much a 9 year old can justify / reconcile and the long-term impacts of something as horrific as this would have been.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur Novelist View Post

    [INDENT][INDENT]If BDI, a decision was made at some point to stage. I cannot believe that JR or PR would have constructed or arranged for the strangulation device. IMO, JB would have been dead when they found out for this scenario.
    Exactly. Imo, what is most likely is that JBR was dead when found by PR and/or JR. Not dying - obviously dead and obviously molested. No finishing her off, no one parent covering for another - nothing but a dead and gone child, and a seemingly unbearable, reputation destroying disclosure on the horizon.

  3. #3
    IMO, the motive is most likely a destructive act trying to make a fantasy real.

  4. #4
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    Amateur Novelist;9994684][]

    If you were JR or PR, had nothing to do with the murder and felt as though you were the primary target of the investigation, would you be so frustrated that the police were not looking for other suspects that you would get your own group involved to ensure that you were protected? It seems reasonable if everyone was pointing at you because of the circumstances and lack of evidence pointing to an outsider.
    They had no reason to feel they were the primary target on the first day, other than their own guilt. The police treated them with kid gloves and they still refused to cooperate, even to answer all the questions that would routinely be asked. If I was in that position, and innocent, I would be cooperating and begging for a polygraph, truth serum, hypnotist or whatever
    else I thought might satisfy any questions regarding my guilt so LE could move in the right direction.

    One only has to look to the actions of Mark Klaas when his daughter was really kidnapped by an intruder, to view the actions of an innocent man under suspicion. He was the non custodial parent, the perfect suspect.

    . Due to the description of the crime scene, I cannot see how anyone could do that to a family member unless a person was too young to comprehend – even then it does not seem likely. If BR grew up without issues, it seems hard to imagine that he would have had anything to do with it although I do not know how much a 9 year old can justify / reconcile and the long-term impacts of something as horrific as this would have been.OTE
    ]

    That is patently ridiculous. Family members routinely do horrendous things to their own families including their children. Jeffrey MacDonald, Darlie Routier, Susan Smith, Diane Downs, need I go on? As far as BR growing up "without issues" who says he has?

    I cannnot imagine how anyone could grow up without issues with his crazy family, whether he committed the murder or not.

    The lunatic that went into an elementary school almost a year ago and murdered 26 people, including the children, wasn't known to the rest of us have any "issues" either. Now we know.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur Novelist View Post
    Please see the attachment. The text is included below which I attempted to format:

    I still have an open mind concerning this case and cannot rule anything out.

    What was the motive?

    Accidental death followed by an intentional cover-up (RDI)

    Molestation (external meaning not within the immediate family) (IDI)

    Jealousy / vindictive act towards JR with intent to hurt him / his family (IDI)

    Cover-up for molestation by immediate family member (Could have been premeditated or accidental but some of the events afterwards were to cover-up for what would have been discovered) (RDI)

    Kidnapping to extort money foiled turning into a murder (IDI)

    If IDI…

    Was this supposed to be a kidnapping or was molestation the motive?

    Makes sense:

    Unknown DNA is valid and relevant

    Murder of victim / other findings performed by someone “detached” (not the immediate family) seems more believable considering what was done to JBR

    Passing of the polygraph test by JR and PR

    Does not make sense:

    Length of the ransom note (if it was written after the murder). It could have been written prior with the intent of a kidnapping or to confuse (but it really does not make sense)

    Why actually leave the ransom note when the victim was killed on the premises and left behind? Why wasn’t the RN taken after the murder?

    Why indicate that it is a kidnapping but then perform the activities that happened in the basement? It seems as though it was quite a risk.

    Pineapple in digestive track – who fed her the pineapple?

    Evidence of historical sexual abuse likely was caused by someone else (unless this person was close to the family and had done this prior - unlikely)

    JR and PR passed the polygraph test

    If RDI…

    If it was an accident:

    Makes sense:

    Hurried / disheveled / staged crime scene as a cover-up

    IMO, the likeliest scenario if RDI would be BDI as PR or JR likely would not have covered for the other under the pressure if one of them had done it. If it was accidental, PR would be 2nd on my list of suspects because I don’t believe that it would have been JR if it was accidental.

    Pineapple was a snack before bed which extends the timeline of how long JB was awake meaning there would be less time for someone external

    PR wearing the same clothes as the day before because she was up all night assisting with the staging

    Does not make sense:

    If it was initially accidental, why not call 9-1-1 and try to save her vs. hitting her in the head or strangulation (not sure which came first) to kill her unless she was already dead when her parents learned about the tragedy.

    JR and PR would know that either they would be found guilty or the responsible party would never be found (because it was them). This would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Why the cover-up (unless it was to cover for the prior sexual abuse or what happened near her death)?

    If it was premeditated:


    IMO, it would have been BR (because of something like jealousy or aggressive sexual tendencies) or JR (2nd most likely on my list in this scenario because of something such as molestation).

    If BDI, a decision was made at some point to stage. I cannot believe that JR or PR would have constructed or arranged for the strangulation device. IMO, JB would have been dead when they found out for this scenario.

    If JR did it, I don’t think that BR or PR knew what happened.

    Other thoughts: Nobody knows how they would react in the situation encountered by the R family. Put yourself in this position… If you woke up, your daughter was missing, and the police started asking questions about what your son was doing the night before, it might seem reasonable to get him away from the questioning, etc. because obviously he had nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if BDI, it also would make sense to get him out of there if you were part of the cover-up.

    If you were JR or PR, had nothing to do with the murder and felt as though you were the primary target of the investigation, would you be so frustrated that the police were not looking for other suspects that you would get your own group involved to ensure that you were protected? It seems reasonable if everyone was pointing at you because of the circumstances and lack of evidence pointing to an outsider.

    I really want to believe that JR, PR, and BR had nothing to do with it. Due to the description of the crime scene, I cannot see how anyone could do that to a family member unless a person was too young to comprehend – even then it does not seem likely. If BR grew up without issues, it seems hard to imagine that he would have had anything to do with it although I do not know how much a 9 year old can justify / reconcile and the long-term impacts of something as horrific as this would have been.
    Of the five choices you have listed under what was the motive, none of them satisfy me but the one that comes closest is the first one, Accidental death followed by intentional cover-up (RDI). The one problem with it is the garrote strangulation, which I believe is the actual cause of death and and which I also believe was not an accident. I believe the garrote indicates intentional murder.

    Let me suggest you add another possibility to your list. It is neither RDI or IDI but has elements of both and I think, in totality, matches the evidence better than pure RDI or pure IDI. I concede that there is absolutely no publicly known proof that it is true, but if it were true, it would match a lot of things we have seen. It is this: A non-Ramsey killed JB but this person was not an intruder. He was known to the parents, and the parents were aware that he was at the house that night. He intentionally killed JB and the parents know about it, but they have maintained their silence about what they know. They have hidden his involvement, as well as their own, in their daughter's death. The parents did not expect their daughter would be murdered. They did not know this person was going to kill their daughter, but he did. They were then forced to cover for him because to expose him would be to also expose what they had been allowing to happen, which was the repeated molestation of their daughter by someone outside of the family. Again, there is no proof of it, but this is the scenario that makes the most sense to me, looking at the totality of the evidence.
    Last edited by Anyhoo; 11-21-2013 at 08:24 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur Novelist View Post
    Please see the attachment. The text is included below which I attempted to format:

    I still have an open mind concerning this case and cannot rule anything out.

    What was the motive?

    Accidental death followed by an intentional cover-up (RDI)

    Molestation (external meaning not within the immediate family) (IDI)

    Jealousy / vindictive act towards JR with intent to hurt him / his family (IDI)

    Cover-up for molestation by immediate family member (Could have been premeditated or accidental but some of the events afterwards were to cover-up for what would have been discovered) (RDI)

    Kidnapping to extort money foiled turning into a murder (IDI)

    If IDI…

    Was this supposed to be a kidnapping or was molestation the motive?

    Makes sense:

    Unknown DNA is valid and relevant

    Murder of victim / other findings performed by someone “detached” (not the immediate family) seems more believable considering what was done to JBR

    Passing of the polygraph test by JR and PR

    Does not make sense:

    Length of the ransom note (if it was written after the murder). It could have been written prior with the intent of a kidnapping or to confuse (but it really does not make sense)

    Why actually leave the ransom note when the victim was killed on the premises and left behind? Why wasn’t the RN taken after the murder?

    Why indicate that it is a kidnapping but then perform the activities that happened in the basement? It seems as though it was quite a risk.

    Pineapple in digestive track – who fed her the pineapple?

    Evidence of historical sexual abuse likely was caused by someone else (unless this person was close to the family and had done this prior - unlikely)

    JR and PR passed the polygraph test

    If RDI…

    If it was an accident:

    Makes sense:

    Hurried / disheveled / staged crime scene as a cover-up

    IMO, the likeliest scenario if RDI would be BDI as PR or JR likely would not have covered for the other under the pressure if one of them had done it. If it was accidental, PR would be 2nd on my list of suspects because I don’t believe that it would have been JR if it was accidental.

    Pineapple was a snack before bed which extends the timeline of how long JB was awake meaning there would be less time for someone external

    PR wearing the same clothes as the day before because she was up all night assisting with the staging

    Does not make sense:

    If it was initially accidental, why not call 9-1-1 and try to save her vs. hitting her in the head or strangulation (not sure which came first) to kill her unless she was already dead when her parents learned about the tragedy.

    JR and PR would know that either they would be found guilty or the responsible party would never be found (because it was them). This would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Why the cover-up (unless it was to cover for the prior sexual abuse or what happened near her death)?

    If it was premeditated:


    IMO, it would have been BR (because of something like jealousy or aggressive sexual tendencies) or JR (2nd most likely on my list in this scenario because of something such as molestation).

    If BDI, a decision was made at some point to stage. I cannot believe that JR or PR would have constructed or arranged for the strangulation device. IMO, JB would have been dead when they found out for this scenario.

    If JR did it, I don’t think that BR or PR knew what happened.

    Other thoughts: Nobody knows how they would react in the situation encountered by the R family. Put yourself in this position… If you woke up, your daughter was missing, and the police started asking questions about what your son was doing the night before, it might seem reasonable to get him away from the questioning, etc. because obviously he had nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if BDI, it also would make sense to get him out of there if you were part of the cover-up.

    If you were JR or PR, had nothing to do with the murder and felt as though you were the primary target of the investigation, would you be so frustrated that the police were not looking for other suspects that you would get your own group involved to ensure that you were protected? It seems reasonable if everyone was pointing at you because of the circumstances and lack of evidence pointing to an outsider.

    I really want to believe that JR, PR, and BR had nothing to do with it. Due to the description of the crime scene, I cannot see how anyone could do that to a family member unless a person was too young to comprehend – even then it does not seem likely. If BR grew up without issues, it seems hard to imagine that he would have had anything to do with it although I do not know how much a 9 year old can justify / reconcile and the long-term impacts of something as horrific as this would have been.
    I would take issue with a few of your points, Amateur Novelist.

    1) That PR and JR passed a polygraph test. I won't bore anyone with a long, drawn-out history of that little comedy, but those tests aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

    2) We know now that it was not frustration that prompted the Rs to hire their own group. You said it right: protection.

    3) I understand how no one wants to think that someone could do this to a family member, but parents have done this and even worse. From FBI agent Ron Walker, who was at the Ramsey house on 12/26/96: "Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I would take issue with a few of your points, Amateur Novelist.

    1) That PR and JR passed a polygraph test. I won't bore anyone with a long, drawn-out history of that little comedy, but those tests aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

    I am not aware of specifics around the polygraph test but I did read that the R's did offer on multiple occasions to work with the police department to find an agreeable party to conduct the tests. The police department insisted on using the FBI which I read had, in the past, used a failed test as leverage to extract a confession. Due to the unpredictably as to how one would react to the questioning, there was some concern expressed by the R's to comply. I can see both sides of the argument and this is another area where there is disagreement concerning the rational / thinking on each side.

    2) We know now that it was not frustration that prompted the Rs to hire their own group. You said it right: protection.

    I guess that it depends on your source as to what was transpiring. Much of what was being released was from the police department who considered the R's the primary suspect from the onset (per some sources). Perhaps rightly so, perhaps not as I do not have access to the evidence, did not see the behavior, etc. If I 100% did not have anything to do with a crime and I was constantly being asked questions to clarify my accounts of where I was and what I did, I would likely seek legal help ASAP. I do not know how quickly the legal team was hired but if there was a lack of evidence of involvement from an outside party and I knew that I was the primary suspect, I think that I would react in the same way.

    3) I understand how no one wants to think that someone could do this to a family member, but parents have done this and even worse. From FBI agent Ron Walker, who was at the Ramsey house on 12/26/96: "Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."
    chlban and SuperDave - you both brought up valid points and I wish that I had written this differently. I guess my premise is that I do not view JR or PR as horrific inherently evil people and I have not read enough about BR to know if he was capable. As far as I know, the R's did not have any violent / criminal history (that I am aware of) but I guess there is a first time for everyone who commits a violent crime. What was the real motive?

    Again, imagine the anguish if you had nothing to do with a crime such as this but were the primary suspect. I do not know if they did or did not have anything to do with it, but if they didn't, I don't see their behavior as being abnormal or outlandish. They seemed like they were caring parents with no history of violent crimes but there certainly is some troubling information that I have read. As I mentioned, I am not sure what is real evidence vs. conjecture or unsubstantiated leaks.

    Please let me know if you read any of the books on the case and which ones seem to be the most informative about the investigation and actual evidence. I have read though a number of forums which include a significant amount of discussion concerning the evidence, but it is not clear to me as to what is accurate vs. what is inaccurate.

    I can understand the premise that there is little or no outside evidence <and hence> it must have been one of the R's, but what if it wasn't? It would be interesting to know where everyone stood concerning a percentage of certainty of belief in any of the RDI or IDI scenarios or perhaps just the percentage of belief that IDI. There is so much that does not make sense and I have read that even the "experts" with knowledge of the evidence cannot agree on who did this.

    I expect that it seems trivial compared to everything else, but I struggle with why there would have been traces of pineapple in JBR's digestive system. I do not expect that a 6 year old would go downstairs be herself for a snack so it would seem that one of the R's fed her a snack or are aware that she had eaten pineapple. For me, the pineapple coupled with the suspected voice of BR on the 9-1-1 call are a couple of examples of things that are difficult to reconcile that would seem to point to R's involvement. I know that there is fiber evidence and a number of other inconsistencies and perhaps that is why it seems so many are convinced that the R's were involved.
    .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur Novelist View Post
    I am not aware of specifics around the polygraph test but I did read that the R's did offer on multiple occasions to work with the police department to find an agreeable party to conduct the tests. The police department insisted on using the FBI which I read had, in the past, used a failed test as leverage to extract a confession. Due to the unpredictably as to how one would react to the questioning, there was some concern expressed by the R's to comply. I can see both sides of the argument and this is another area where there is disagreement concerning the rational / thinking on each side.
    Well, for one thing, there's considerable variations on how willing the Rs were to take a polygraph test, back when their memories were fresher. As for the FBI using the test to extract a confession, I'll let you in on a little secret, Amateur: that's the whole purpose of polygraph tests. I actually devote an entire chapter to the polygraph issue, and in my research, I've become convinced that there's no point to them except as leverage against a suspect. Even if I KNEW I was innocent, I wouldn't take one. But refusing to take one under your guaranteed rights is a lot different from what the Rs did, which was to hire their own tests--plural--until they found one disreputable enough to give them a passing grade as a publicity stunt.

    Hey, I've said it a million times: if someone refuses to talk to the police, they shouldn't be judged; if they LIE, they should be judged.

    I guess that it depends on your source as to what was transpiring. Much of what was being released was from the police department who considered the R's the primary suspect from the onset (per some sources). Perhaps rightly so, perhaps not as I do not have access to the evidence, did not see the behavior, etc. If I 100% did not have anything to do with a crime and I was constantly being asked questions to clarify my accounts of where I was and what I did, I would likely seek legal help ASAP. I do not know how quickly the legal team was hired but if there was a lack of evidence of involvement from an outside party and I knew that I was the primary suspect, I think that I would react in the same way.
    My source is John himself, who confessed in his deposition that the team he hired was purely to keep him out of jail (and we've often discussed the underhanded tactics they used to do it), which was contrary to his public statements that they were there to follow up on leads that the police weren't bothering with.

    To expand on what I said a moment ago, it's one thing to hire legal help, for whatever reason. No one says you can't. No one says you shouldn't. But, again, there's a big difference between that and what the Rs did.

    chlban and SuperDave - you both brought up valid points and I wish that I had written this differently. I guess my premise is that I do not view JR or PR as horrific inherently evil people and I have not read enough about BR to know if he was capable. As far as I know, the R's did not have any violent / criminal history (that I am aware of) but I guess there is a first time for everyone who commits a violent crime. What was the real motive?
    No one needs to be inherently evil, AN. It's all a question of circumstance and personal fortitude. Different people react differently. But I hold that anyone is capable of anything, given the right motivation. I'm often amazed at what people will do to their loved ones when they feel trapped.

    Please let me know if you read any of the books on the case and which ones seem to be the most informative about the investigation and actual evidence. I have read though a number of forums which include a significant amount of discussion concerning the evidence, but it is not clear to me as to what is accurate vs. what is inaccurate.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town and Foreign Faction are the best ones I've come across. (I'll resist the temptation to make a plug!)

    I can understand the premise that there is little or no outside evidence <and hence> it must have been one of the R's, but what if it wasn't? It would be interesting to know where everyone stood concerning a percentage of certainty of belief in any of the RDI or IDI scenarios or perhaps just the percentage of belief that IDI. There is so much that does not make sense and I have read that even the "experts" with knowledge of the evidence cannot agree on who did this.
    With me, it's about 95% And it helps me (I can't speak for other people) to see where the majority of experts stand, at least when it comes to science. Handwriting analysis has no scientific basis and varies wildly from analyst to analyst.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  9. #9
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    If IDI

    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur Novelist View Post
    If you woke up, your daughter was missing, and the police started asking questions about what your son was doing the night before, it might seem reasonable to get him away from the questioning, etc. because obviously he had nothing to do with it.
    I would either think it must be a mistake or sick joke. That would seem much more likely than the idea someone was creeping around the house and kidnapped/killed someone without anyone hearing anything.

    If I concluded it was not a mistake or joke, I would be scared for my family b/c it would feel like the intruder has ninja-like powers to creep around undetected.

  10. #10
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    I do not think the Rs were inherently evil. But they were capable of some truly immoral behavior. Molesting JB, regardless of who did it, was a secret they all kept and so are all responsible. (except for JB, of course- she was a victim).

    I think this was a family who thought their wealth and powerful connections could keep the law at bay - and it did! The truth, for those who are willing to accept it, is beginning to slip out bit by bit- the revealing of the true nature of the GJ indictments and the DA's vile lies about it, are hopefully just the beginning.

    Not evil people, but self-centered, narcissistic to be sure. They did what they had to do to prevent yet a third child from being destroyed and didn't care whose life they destroyed in the process.
    People can be capable of evil things- even once.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


  11. #11

    I still have an open mind as to how this happened and who did it

    It is hard to separate fact from fiction with regards to evidence, conversations with police, etc. as everything, from my perspective, is hearsay.

    I want to believe that the immediate family could not have done this to their daughter / sister, but the behavior, actions, conversations on record are curious to say the least.

    If the blow to the head was first, I do not think that PR or JR caused it (unless attributed to PR and truly accidental) but they could have been involved in staging after the fact. I know that there are many who believe this to be true and I find myself waffling between feeling that could have been what happened vs. hoping that someone else was involved, responsible, and will be identified.

    I can't come up with an IDI scenario where the pineapple makes sense. Why did the R's insist that they be interviewed together - does this show that perhaps one was not involved, that they were both involved, acting in tandem, but not totally aware of what the other was doing so they had to construct the answers to the questions on the fly and wanted to make sure that they were consistent? Does anyone have an explanation for their insistence on why they had to be interviewed together?

    Finally, after all of this time, why would BR refuse to be interviewed? I guess either he knows nothing and believes that he cannot help or he knows a lot and is concerned what could be learned by subjecting himself to questioning. If the former is the case, what would it hurt to try to assist (perhaps reliving the emotional trauma of losing his sister would be too painful) - it does not seem to add up.

    I know that this is not any type of revelation but I struggle with all of the inconsistencies and it does not all seem to fit together. I am targeting closure in my mind as to what happened and who did it but I keep going in circles. Perhaps the most obvious suspects seem the most likely in all cases - to me, the scene, the collection / totality of the hearsay evidence, etc. seem to point that way in this case - I wish that I had access to the actual evidence.

  12. #12
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    Amateur Novelist:

    First and with all due respect, I am going to state this from a critical thinking perspective. If (as you've stated) you really want to believe that PR, JR, &/or BR had nothing to do with the murder of JBR, how do you truly believe you can honestly "keep an open mind"? In scientific terms, you are suffering from "bias". If anyone attempts to decifer or research a topic but goes into it with a preconceived notion or emotion then their outcome/perspective is already skewed.

    Second, it is unfair and presumptive to state that nobody would know what to do under the circumstances the R's found themselves that morning. Many of us have been formally trained to handle emergency situations. Many of us have had to rely upon a steady composure and clear-headedness under extreme duress. Personally, I prefer to refrain from broad-sweeping generalizations about people because I am aware that in reality those statements usually apply only to the person making the statement, iykwim.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Look, if any of us wanted to mind our own business, we wouldn't be here" (carbuff 8/11/13)

    This post reflects my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy it anywhere else outside of the WebSleuth forum

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amateur Novelist View Post
    It is hard to separate fact from fiction with regards to evidence, conversations with police, etc. as everything, from my perspective, is hearsay.

    I want to believe that the immediate family could not have done this to their daughter / sister, but the behavior, actions, conversations on record are curious to say the least.

    If the blow to the head was first, I do not think that PR or JR caused it (unless attributed to PR and truly accidental) but they could have been involved in staging after the fact. I know that there are many who believe this to be true and I find myself waffling between feeling that could have been what happened vs. hoping that someone else was involved, responsible, and will be identified.

    I can't come up with an IDI scenario where the pineapple makes sense. Why did the R's insist that they be interviewed together - does this show that perhaps one was not involved, that they were both involved, acting in tandem, but not totally aware of what the other was doing so they had to construct the answers to the questions on the fly and wanted to make sure that they were consistent? Does anyone have an explanation for their insistence on why they had to be interviewed together?

    Finally, after all of this time, why would BR refuse to be interviewed? I guess either he knows nothing and believes that he cannot help or he knows a lot and is concerned what could be learned by subjecting himself to questioning. If the former is the case, what would it hurt to try to assist (perhaps reliving the emotional trauma of losing his sister would be too painful) - it does not seem to add up.

    I know that this is not any type of revelation but I struggle with all of the inconsistencies and it does not all seem to fit together. I am targeting closure in my mind as to what happened and who did it but I keep going in circles. Perhaps the most obvious suspects seem the most likely in all cases - to me, the scene, the collection / totality of the hearsay evidence, etc. seem to point that way in this case - I wish that I had access to the actual evidence.
    BBM- Maybe so they would know that they wouldn't turn on each other.
    The above mentioned text and views are my opinion and mine alone.

  14. #14
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    Dec 2013
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    Amateur novelist; a few things to consider:

    In an RDI scenario the ransom note would make perfect sense if not for the body being in the house. The body in the house contradicts the ransom note. Oddly, this contradiction is a reason many RDI (as I’ve known and understand them) commonly cite for their belief: no kidnapper would leave both note and body.

    However, this contradiction actually goes towards disproving RDI, as it is not reasonable to fake a kidnapping, and then call the police before disposing of the body (it is reasonable to create self-incriminating evidence and give it to the police; it is not reasonable to create a scene indicative of an inside job when you’re trying to direct suspicion away... ).

    As to why an intruder would leave both note and body, several possibilities present themselves; examples:

    1. a kidnapper could have intended on murdering and hiding his victim in the house right from the get-go, possibly believing that the Ramseys would not call the police and that he could collect his money before the parents discovered the body (why would they look for it?). Murdering and hiding the body in the house relieves him of the risk of having to handle, transport, hide and return/dispose of his victim and reduces the risk of forensic evidence accruing.

    2. a molester who happened to kill (as opposed to a killer who happened to molest) could have created the note as a means of hiding from himself and/or others his perverse desires and true motivation. Wiping, redressing, covering body and elements of a kidnapping (cord, tape, note) all could have been done as a means to misdirect. <quote> “We know that offenders are more reluctant to admit sexual motives than other types of motives (e.g., profit, revenge, anger, power). Some offenders may not even realize their true motivation. An offender may eventually request a ridiculously small ransom for a child he had abducted to molest in an apparent attempt to convince others, but primarily himself, that he is not a sex offender” <unquote> <1>

    3. a killer wishing to direct suspicion towards the occupants of the house (thus, away from himself)

    4. a killer wishing to create an enduring mystery

    5. a killer hoping to create for the parents a sense of false hope mingled with hours of angst and pain reaching its peak when the body is discovered

    6. Virtually any reason you can think of for a Ramsey to write the note with the body in the house works just as well for an intruder; the possibilities are endless and it is a blatant error of reason to say otherwise. The claim that there was “no purpose whatsoever” for an intruder to leave a phony (or real) ransom note is false.

    <1> Child Molesters Who Abduct: Summary of the Case in Point Series” Edited by Kenneth V. Lanning and Ann Wolbert Burgess http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf
    ...

    AK

  15. #15
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    Also, on the pineapple: we don’t know what time Jonbenet ate it and we don’t know what time she was attacked (wounded to such degree as to halt digestion). So, all we have is a range of time that could have passed between those two events. What happened during that time? We don’t know.

    As to the range of time: some experts say that there are too many variables to make a certain determination - onset of illness, excitement/stress, exhaustion/sleep, other items ingested, factors peculiar to the individual, etc.

    I think that in most cases with most people we could say that the pineapple would have went from here to there in an hour and a half (the shortest time given by a BPD expert), and in rarer cases with certain people it could have been ingested as early as 4:30 (the longest time given by a BPD expert). I don’t know which one of these Jonbenet was, and neither does anyone else.

    Here are a few, possible and “innocent” explanations for the pineapple:
    1) jonbenet eats the pineapple before leaving for the White’s, a quick bite on her way out the door – at least one Boulder expert said that this was possible

    2) jonbenet takes a small piece with her when they leave for the White’s, like candy, tucked into a box, a bag, a baggie, a container, a pocket, whatever was handy. She eats it at the Whites or in the car before falling asleep on the way home

    3) jonbenet having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and “finds” that stashed or left over piece somewhere in her room. yum, yum.

    4) jonbenet, having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and maybe still thinking about Christmas, wanders downstairs and sees the pineapple in the bowl, left there from earlier in the day, and she has a piece, but still tired wanders off back to bed
    ...

    AK

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