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The Killing Season - Websleuths

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  1. #1
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    On False Testimony (and other incriminating statements)

    One thing that strikes me about this case is the sheer (and alarming) number of statements that were taken by seriously by police, used to obtain warrants, used as a basis for arrest, and presented in court -- and which are either patently ludicrous, clearly conflicting or have been recanted by the person making the statement.

    As I go about, reading and re-reading the various accounts, the various statements recanting former statements, etc... I can't help but see a terribly flawed body of 'evidence'. So terribly flawed, that I am very surprised any of it is still considered to be evidence. Of ANYthing.

    If it was just one person recanting, or one conflicting statement, well, that's one thing. But of, LOOK at how MUCH of the statement evidence is faulty, or plain false.

    The softball girls, the Hutchesons, Michael Carson... people who were critical to the WM3's arrests and convictions .. they do not hold water. Or have recanted. This kicks the wheels out from under a LOT of arguments for guilt.

    I have a busy-busy day today, but I intend to look at this quite thoroughly, including a look at WHY people make false statements.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 12-02-2013 at 11:38 PM. Reason: I made a booboo
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    The softball girls
    Let's start here. Katie LaFoy, Jackee Medford, Jessica Medford, Jodee Medford, and Christy VanVickle are all being branded as liars, on the basis of what exactly? Because Echols said so?
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  3. #3
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    I didn't 'brand' them as 'liars'. Please stop putting words in my mouth, and thoughts in my head. For one, it's a very poor and underhanded way of forming an argument.

    Fact is, their statements are rather confused. I say this, and my main point where they are are concerned being, that it appears they collectively are not really sure of who said what, and to whom.

    This is evident in direct quotes from the girls themselves, regarding who said what and to whom. And the one adult present didn't hear anything directly from Echols, just the chatter from behind her, and this chatter cannot pinpoint the actual original source of who actually HEARD Echols make the statement -- because the accounts conflict.

    I am pressed for time to go report-diving right now, in and out of the forum.. but I am happy to show where this happens, when I have that time.

    Please note that I am NOT stating that Echols said nothing. And I am NOT focussing on this one event alone, but rather on the body of the entirety of all the various recanted and contradictory (and on occasion plain silly) statements responsible for arrests, convictions and ongoing statements based on those that I percieve aren't very accurate.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    it's a very poor and underhanded way of forming an argument.
    But branding people's testimony as false while providing no absoutely evidence to substantate the claim and denying the logical implcations of doing so, that's all on the up and up, eh?
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  5. #5
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    I think I clearly said I'd BE providing that info, when I got time. In the meantime, you are of course free to go look up the statements yourself.

    Here's a breakdown of the statements showing just how confused they are, given on another site, as I don't presently HAVE TIME (I feel I need to speak clearly here) to do so myself. But I will.

    from http://www.jivepuppi.com/rumors.html :


    Shortly after the arrests, the police received information that a Jenni Deacon, aged 13, had overheard Echols confess. Jenni Deacon stated she had been at J.W. Rich Girls Club softball field on the first of June but that it was her friend Rachael Myers who had told her that she (Myers) had overheard the confession.

    According to notes from Detective Ridge, Rachel Myers had said a "Shelly Wolf" (correctly, Wolfe) had overheard Damien confess while at a softball park. Ridge interviewed Wolfe who said she had heard this from Shannon Boals.

    Shannon Boals, aged fourteen, described it a bit differently.

    Around May 21, 93 [6:30 or 7:00 written above line] I was at the Girls Club in West Memphis at my softball game and this girl name Michelle Carter told me that Damien Echols came up to her and said that he killed those boys and I just said really and she said yes. [Shannon Boals, September 7, 1993]

    Returning the favor, Michelle Carter (age unknown) said she was told by Shannon Boals. "About 2 weeks ago at my ballgame at the Girls Club I was told by Shannon Boals from Marion that there was a boy named Damien that said he killed the boys and he didn't cut their thing off he bite it off." [Michelle Carter, June 9, 1993]

    Trey Boals [15 y.o.], Shannon's brother, said he and David Smith heard a David Way state he had overheard Echols confess. David Way [18 y.o.] said he heard this from David Smith. There are no notes regarding David Smith's version.
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  6. #6
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    Common sense. There are loads of reasons why their word could be false.

    Damian could have lied and said he did it to look hardcore and badass, or they were pressing him and he said yes to get them to shut the hell up. Or it could have been a bunch of idiopts who wanted their 15 minutes of fame and refused to admit it because of ramifications. Most of what was said against them isn't checkable (the whole great dane horseshit wasn't even used at trial, so that may well have been some idiot lying to get attention or twisting an existing event), and weren't really screened. It was suspect at best.

  7. #7
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    The main point for me here is that the sum total amounts to:

    "Damien Echols said something incriminating (but we don't know exactly what) to somebody (but we can't be sure of exactly to whom)."

    And that's just shoddy. Really shoddy evidence.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    I think I clearly said I'd BE providing that info, when I got time.
    Well until then you're clearly branding people's testimony as false while providing no absolutely evidence to substantiate the claim and have gone on to deny the logical implications of doing so, which is a revoltingly poor and underhanded way of forming an argument. As is quoting Jivepuppy ramble on about people who didn't even testify, or even the the ones who gave witness statements which corroborate that testimony doesn't come anywhere close to presenting a reasonable argument either.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordYAM View Post
    Common sense. There are loads of reasons why their word could be false.
    There's no sense disregarding witnesses based on such notions of what could be, as if there was no witness testimony could ever rightly be considered evidence of anything.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  9. #9
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    Okay now you're being fallacious. It depends on circumstances. Some witnesses or types of testimony are not and never will be credible. The testimony of the softball girls is one. You are refusing to consider that maybe the girls were wrong or there is another explanation. It's essentially putting your fingers in your ears and "la lalalalallalalalal i'm not listeninglalallalalallalalalalal". That is what you are doing.

    Hell Ausgirl made good points on why the Hobbs family testimony about Hobb's violence can be wrong or right, and that one could make arguments for its legitimacy or illegitimacy. The point is, that there are times when you can argue that witness testimony isn't legit and so far you have presented no evidence to show that there can't ever be explanations for the "confessions" and "testimony" that are both plausible and show they aren't guilty (namely that Damian as a dumbass teenager could be trying to sound hardcore and thus lied, and some people were dumb enough to take it seriously, because that can happen. I cited the dane because the police never used it at trial, so obviously it wasn't seen as important.) You are completely ignoring my point because you want to think they are guilty (and no the evidence doesn't point to their guilt, you just want to think it does because you're either too arrogant to consider that other interpretations of the evidence may be valid, that there are alternate explanations for certain "proof" or just to plain unable to actually comprehend or examine physical evidence, hence why you cling to the tired nonsense about knife wounds even though Micheal Baden,John Douglas, and most other law enforcement agent, forensic expert, and scientist (people with far more training then you or I can ever hope to hold) says otherwise. Kyle, you are not fighting for the truth. You are fighting for the right to continue living in a dream world where everything is nice and tidy where the police don't commit massive travesties, where confessions are simple matters rather than flawed complicated and murky things that can be twisted, falsified or even wrong due to a wide variety of murky circumstances, where respected citizens don't commit brutal atrocities against their own kids, where the state won't ignore evidence because it wants to look good and avoid disgrace that would come from admitting to accidentally railroading innocent people or making colossal blunders, where everything is nice and simple.) Grow up.

  10. #10
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    Does it mean NOTHING at all that in these statements made --to police-- the girls were attributing the Echols' comment --in circles--?

    But that's not all. Hutcheson and Carson have recanted.

    There's the guy who levitates -- or DOES HE?!

    Aaron Hutcheson's statements are riddled with inaccuracies. Problematic, much.

    It goes on and on.

    And as much as anyone would LOVE it if I'd actually said I thought the girls were lying, I have not. They may well have overheard something. I just can't be sure of --what--. Or you know. Who actually heard it.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordYAM View Post
    It's essentially putting your fingers in your ears and "la lalalalallalalalal i'm not listeninglalallalalallalalalalal". That is what you are doing.
    No, that's what you're doing by dreaming up excuses to ignore Christi VanVickle and Jodee Medford testimony along with the witness reports from Katie LaFoy, Jackee Medford, and Jessica Medford which corroborate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    Does it mean NOTHING at all that in these statements made --to police-- the girls were attributing the Echols' comment --in circles--?
    What's meaningless is going around circles proclaiming testimony false without even quoting the testimony being alluded to, let alone providing evidence to dispute it.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  12. #12
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    http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/

    STATEMENT OF: Shannon Boals DATE: 9-7-93
    119 Lori Lane Marion, AR
    DOB: Aug. 6 S/R: Female, White

    Around May 21, 93 [6:30 or 7:00 written above line] I was at the Girls Club in West Memphis at my softball game and this girl name Michelle Carter told me that Damien Echols came up to her and said that he killed those boys and I just said really and she said yes. Then I got question by my Aunt Diane. Then she called Michelle and Michelle called me and asked me if I was questioned then I was never called or talked to by the police since then but then Sept. 7, 93 I was question again.
    S.L.B.

    I have written this statement consisting of 1 page(s), and I affirm to the truth and accuracy of the facts contained therein.

    This statement was completed at 6:00p.m., on the 7 day of Sept. 1993.
    WITNESS: Bill Durham
    [signed] Shannon Lea Boals

    -----------------------------------------------

    MICHELE CARTER

    Michele Carter 1007 Snowden W. Memphis, AR 72301

    About 2 weeks ago at my ballgame at the Girls Club I was told by Shannon Boals from Marion that there was a boy named Damien that said he killed the boys and he didn't cut their thing off he bite it off. Shannon showed him to me and pointed him out to me. Shelley Wolf from Marion also told me that she cut herself one day and he ask her if he could suck her blood. Later on more of my friends Tara Cupples, Cory Catt, and Shannon Boals were standing with me in front on the consetion stand and we decided to go over and sit with her brother Trey Boals and a bunch of his other friends I am not sure what their names are. We all sat down and as we sat behind the blechers we saw Damien sitting beside us. We tried not to look at him so we moved over a little. He never talked to me except he asked who we were I told him Michele Carter he never said another word to me. Cory Catt and Tara Cupples left and it was me, Shannon Boals and Trey Boals sitting on the grass still and I just happened to hear Damien say something about him and the Devil so I decided to get up. Right before my game started Shannon Boals also told me that he wanted to kill two more people and he knew one of them was his ex-girlfriend. Shannon Boals said her brother Trey Boals knew more and that it was his friend Shawn something that told him. I think that was his name. I never saw him after that.

    I have written this statement consisting of 1 page(s), and I affirm to the truth and accuracy of the facts contained therein.

    This statement was completed at 2:00p.m., on the 9th day of June 1993.
    WITNESS: Diane Hester
    [signed] Michele Carter
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    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  13. #13
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    Christi VanVickle and Jodee Medford are the two girls whose testimony you've proclaimed false, and Katie LaFoy, Jackee Medford, and Jessica Medford are the three other witnesses who corroborate their accounts with statement to police. Quoting hearsay from other people does nothing to support your claim that those five witnesses statements are false.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  14. #14
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    Damien admitted himself he probably said it years later. http://youtu.be/SGWa4KomcuA?t=12m29s but it was probably a 'joke'.
    Neither the state nor the defense team are saints, and there is usually plenty of incompetence to go around on both sides of the courtroom.

  15. #15
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    What part of --I will get to it, I don't have a lot of time today-- is unintelligible?

    ffs. It's like talking to a hole in the ground.

    I am not trying to prove whatever all you've blah'd about up there - I am saying the accounts are inconsistent, and have provided two such accounts from a girl stating she's a witnesses to what Echols said, and both demonstrating how the hearsay is circular in nature.

    And I AM NOT DONE. OKAY? Okay.

    Mrs. G., I do think Damien said -something- that day, and yes, he did admit as much. But what did he actually say? There's a pile of stuff to choose from.
    _____________
    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

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