On False Testimony (and other incriminating statements)

One thing that strikes me about this case is the sheer (and alarming) number of statements that were taken by seriously by police, used to obtain warrants, used as a basis for arrest, and presented in court -- and which are either patently ludicrous, clearly conflicting or have been recanted by the person making the statement.

As I go about, reading and re-reading the various accounts, the various statements recanting former statements, etc... I can't help but see a terribly flawed body of 'evidence'. So terribly flawed, that I am very surprised any of it is still considered to be evidence. Of ANYthing.

If it was just one person recanting, or one conflicting statement, well, that's one thing. But of, LOOK at how MUCH of the statement evidence is faulty, or plain false.

The softball girls, the Hutchesons, Michael Carson... people who were critical to the WM3's arrests and convictions .. they do not hold water. Or have recanted. This kicks the wheels out from under a LOT of arguments for guilt.

I have a busy-busy day today, but I intend to look at this quite thoroughly, including a look at WHY people make false statements.

Ausgirl said:

The softball girls

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Let's start here. Katie LaFoy, Jackee Medford, Jessica Medford, Jodee Medford, and Christy VanVickle are all being branded as liars, on the basis of what exactly? Because Echols said so?

I didn't 'brand' them as 'liars'. Please stop putting words in my mouth, and thoughts in my head. For one, it's a very poor and underhanded way of forming an argument.

Fact is, their statements are rather confused. I say this, and my main point where they are are concerned being, that it appears they collectively are not really sure of who said what, and to whom.

This is evident in direct quotes from the girls themselves, regarding who said what and to whom. And the one adult present didn't hear anything directly from Echols, just the chatter from behind her, and this chatter cannot pinpoint the actual original source of who actually HEARD Echols make the statement -- because the accounts conflict.

I am pressed for time to go report-diving right now, in and out of the forum.. but I am happy to show where this happens, when I have that time.

Please note that I am NOT stating that Echols said nothing. And I am NOT focussing on this one event alone, but rather on the body of the entirety of all the various recanted and contradictory (and on occasion plain silly) statements responsible for arrests, convictions and ongoing statements based on those that I percieve aren't very accurate.

Ausgirl said:

it's a very poor and underhanded way of forming an argument.

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But branding people's testimony as false while providing no absoutely evidence to substantate the claim and denying the logical implcations of doing so, that's all on the up and up, eh?

I think I clearly said I'd BE providing that info, when I got time. In the meantime, you are of course free to go look up the statements yourself.

Here's a breakdown of the statements showing just how confused they are, given on another site, as I don't presently HAVE TIME (I feel I need to speak clearly here) to do so myself. But I will.

from http://www.jivepuppi.com/rumors.html :


Shortly after the arrests, the police received information that a Jenni Deacon, aged 13, had overheard Echols confess. Jenni Deacon stated she had been at J.W. Rich Girls Club softball field on the first of June but that it was her friend Rachael Myers who had told her that she (Myers) had overheard the confession.

According to notes from Detective Ridge, Rachel Myers had said a "Shelly Wolf" (correctly, Wolfe) had overheard Damien confess while at a softball park. Ridge interviewed Wolfe who said she had heard this from Shannon Boals.

Shannon Boals, aged fourteen, described it a bit differently.

Around May 21, 93 [6:30 or 7:00 written above line] I was at the Girls Club in West Memphis at my softball game and this girl name Michelle Carter told me that Damien Echols came up to her and said that he killed those boys and I just said really and she said yes. [Shannon Boals, September 7, 1993]

Returning the favor, Michelle Carter (age unknown) said she was told by Shannon Boals. "About 2 weeks ago at my ballgame at the Girls Club I was told by Shannon Boals from Marion that there was a boy named Damien that said he killed the boys and he didn't cut their thing off he bite it off." [Michelle Carter, June 9, 1993]

Trey Boals [15 y.o.], Shannon's brother, said he and David Smith heard a David Way state he had overheard Echols confess. David Way [18 y.o.] said he heard this from David Smith. There are no notes regarding David Smith's version.

Common sense. There are loads of reasons why their word could be false.

Damian could have lied and said he did it to look hardcore and badass, or they were pressing him and he said yes to get them to shut the hell up. Or it could have been a bunch of idiopts who wanted their 15 minutes of fame and refused to admit it because of ramifications. Most of what was said against them isn't checkable (the whole great dane horseshit wasn't even used at trial, so that may well have been some idiot lying to get attention or twisting an existing event), and weren't really screened. It was suspect at best.

The main point for me here is that the sum total amounts to:

"Damien Echols said something incriminating (but we don't know exactly what) to somebody (but we can't be sure of exactly to whom)."

And that's just shoddy. Really shoddy evidence.

Ausgirl said:

I think I clearly said I'd BE providing that info, when I got time.

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Well until then you're clearly branding people's testimony as false while providing no absolutely evidence to substantiate the claim and have gone on to deny the logical implications of doing so, which is a revoltingly poor and underhanded way of forming an argument. As is quoting Jivepuppy ramble on about people who didn't even testify, or even the the ones who gave witness statements which corroborate that testimony doesn't come anywhere close to presenting a reasonable argument either.

LordYAM said:

Common sense. There are loads of reasons why their word could be false.

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There's no sense disregarding witnesses based on such notions of what could be, as if there was no witness testimony could ever rightly be considered evidence of anything.

Okay now you're being fallacious. It depends on circumstances. Some witnesses or types of testimony are not and never will be credible. The testimony of the softball girls is one. You are refusing to consider that maybe the girls were wrong or there is another explanation. It's essentially putting your fingers in your ears and "la lalalalallalalalal i'm not listeninglalallalalallalalalalal". That is what you are doing.

Hell Ausgirl made good points on why the Hobbs family testimony about Hobb's violence can be wrong or right, and that one could make arguments for its legitimacy or illegitimacy. The point is, that there are times when you can argue that witness testimony isn't legit and so far you have presented no evidence to show that there can't ever be explanations for the "confessions" and "testimony" that are both plausible and show they aren't guilty (namely that Damian as a dumbass teenager could be trying to sound hardcore and thus lied, and some people were dumb enough to take it seriously, because that can happen. I cited the dane because the police never used it at trial, so obviously it wasn't seen as important.) You are completely ignoring my point because you want to think they are guilty (and no the evidence doesn't point to their guilt, you just want to think it does because you're either too arrogant to consider that other interpretations of the evidence may be valid, that there are alternate explanations for certain "proof" or just to plain unable to actually comprehend or examine physical evidence, hence why you cling to the tired nonsense about knife wounds even though Micheal Baden,John Douglas, and most other law enforcement agent, forensic expert, and scientist (people with far more training then you or I can ever hope to hold) says otherwise. Kyle, you are not fighting for the truth. You are fighting for the right to continue living in a dream world where everything is nice and tidy where the police don't commit massive travesties, where confessions are simple matters rather than flawed complicated and murky things that can be twisted, falsified or even wrong due to a wide variety of murky circumstances, where respected citizens don't commit brutal atrocities against their own kids, where the state won't ignore evidence because it wants to look good and avoid disgrace that would come from admitting to accidentally railroading innocent people or making colossal blunders, where everything is nice and simple.) Grow up.

Does it mean NOTHING at all that in these statements made --to police-- the girls were attributing the Echols' comment --in circles--?

But that's not all. Hutcheson and Carson have recanted.

There's the guy who levitates -- or DOES HE?!

Aaron Hutcheson's statements are riddled with inaccuracies. Problematic, much.

It goes on and on.

And as much as anyone would LOVE it if I'd actually said I thought the girls were lying, I have not. They may well have overheard something. I just can't be sure of --what--. Or you know. Who actually heard it.

LordYAM said:

It's essentially putting your fingers in your ears and "la lalalalallalalalal i'm not listeninglalallalalallalalalalal". That is what you are doing.

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No, that's what you're doing by dreaming up excuses to ignore Christi VanVickle and Jodee Medford testimony along with the witness reports from Katie LaFoy, Jackee Medford, and Jessica Medford which corroborate it.

Ausgirl said:

Does it mean NOTHING at all that in these statements made --to police-- the girls were attributing the Echols' comment --in circles--?

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What's meaningless is going around circles proclaiming testimony false without even quoting the testimony being alluded to, let alone providing evidence to dispute it.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/

STATEMENT OF: Shannon Boals DATE: 9-7-93
119 Lori Lane Marion, AR
DOB: Aug. 6 S/R: Female, White

Around May 21, 93 [6:30 or 7:00 written above line] I was at the Girls Club in West Memphis at my softball game and this girl name Michelle Carter told me that Damien Echols came up to her and said that he killed those boys and I just said really and she said yes. Then I got question by my Aunt Diane. Then she called Michelle and Michelle called me and asked me if I was questioned then I was never called or talked to by the police since then but then Sept. 7, 93 I was question again.
S.L.B.

I have written this statement consisting of 1 page(s), and I affirm to the truth and accuracy of the facts contained therein.

This statement was completed at 6:00p.m., on the 7 day of Sept. 1993.
WITNESS: Bill Durham
[signed] Shannon Lea Boals

-----------------------------------------------

MICHELE CARTER

Michele Carter 1007 Snowden W. Memphis, AR 72301

About 2 weeks ago at my ballgame at the Girls Club I was told by Shannon Boals from Marion that there was a boy named Damien that said he killed the boys and he didn't cut their thing off he bite it off. Shannon showed him to me and pointed him out to me. Shelley Wolf from Marion also told me that she cut herself one day and he ask her if he could suck her blood. Later on more of my friends Tara Cupples, Cory Catt, and Shannon Boals were standing with me in front on the consetion stand and we decided to go over and sit with her brother Trey Boals and a bunch of his other friends I am not sure what their names are. We all sat down and as we sat behind the blechers we saw Damien sitting beside us. We tried not to look at him so we moved over a little. He never talked to me except he asked who we were I told him Michele Carter he never said another word to me. Cory Catt and Tara Cupples left and it was me, Shannon Boals and Trey Boals sitting on the grass still and I just happened to hear Damien say something about him and the Devil so I decided to get up. Right before my game started Shannon Boals also told me that he wanted to kill two more people and he knew one of them was his ex-girlfriend. Shannon Boals said her brother Trey Boals knew more and that it was his friend Shawn something that told him. I think that was his name. I never saw him after that.

I have written this statement consisting of 1 page(s), and I affirm to the truth and accuracy of the facts contained therein.

This statement was completed at 2:00p.m., on the 9th day of June 1993.
WITNESS: Diane Hester
[signed] Michele Carter

Christi VanVickle and Jodee Medford are the two girls whose testimony you've proclaimed false, and Katie LaFoy, Jackee Medford, and Jessica Medford are the three other witnesses who corroborate their accounts with statement to police. Quoting hearsay from other people does nothing to support your claim that those five witnesses statements are false.

Damien admitted himself he probably said it years later. http://youtu.be/SGWa4KomcuA?t=12m29s but it was probably a 'joke'.

What part of --I will get to it, I don't have a lot of time today-- is unintelligible?

ffs. It's like talking to a hole in the ground.

I am not trying to prove whatever all you've blah'd about up there - I am saying the accounts are inconsistent, and have provided two such accounts from a girl stating she's a witnesses to what Echols said, and both demonstrating how the hearsay is circular in nature.

And I AM NOT DONE. OKAY? Okay.

Mrs. G., I do think Damien said -something- that day, and yes, he did admit as much. But what did he actually say? There's a pile of stuff to choose from.

Mrs G Norris said:

Damien admitted himself he probably said it years later. http://youtu.be/SGWa4KomcuA?t=12m29s but it was probably a 'joke'.

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Yeah, and Baldwin eventually corroborated the five girls' accounts in his 2008 Habeas Corpus petition, section V. part H. "The ball game statements were never put in context" starting on page 101, also employing the joke excuse. But of course anyone who was happy to imagine those girls lied to help send Echols to death will gleefully sign on to the joke excuse too.

Ausgirl said:

What part of --I will get to it, I don't have a lot of time today-- is unintelligible?

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The part where you have time to argue in circles around two girls whose testimony you've proclaimed false and the three other witnesses who corroborate their accounts by posting hearsay.

Ausgirl said:

What part of --I will get to it, I don't have a lot of time today-- is unintelligible?

ffs. It's like talking to a hole in the ground.

I am not trying to prove whatever all you've blah'd about up there - I am saying the accounts are inconsistent, and have provided two such accounts from a girl stating she's a witnesses to what Echols said, and both demonstrating how the hearsay is circular in nature.

And I AM NOT DONE. OKAY? Okay.

Mrs. G., I do think Damien said -something- that day, and yes, he did admit as much. But what did he actually say? There's a pile of stuff to choose from.

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I set the video link to start just as he was about to discuss the ball park testimony then say it was likely a joke, it's near the very end of that video, 12m29s ..

INVESTIGATIVE REPORT
TRIPLE HOMICIDE
BYERS/MOORE/BRANCH

ON 061193, I INTERVIEWED KATIE LAFOY AT 406 BALFOUR. I HAD FOUND THAT KATIE STATED THAT SHE WAS PRESENT AT THE GIRLS CLUB ON 060193 WHEN SHE HEARD A CONVERSATION THAT DAMIEN WAS HAVING WITH SOME GIRLS THERE. SHE SAID THAT SHE DIDN’T HEAR THE FIRST PART OF THE STATEMENT MADE BY DAMIEN BUT THAT SHE DID HEAR HIM SAY, “YEA THAT I’M GOING TO DO IT TO SOME MORE PEOPLE TOO.” SHE STATED THAT SHE COULD HEAR ENOUGH OF THE CONVERSATION THAT SHE KNEW THAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE MURDERS OF THE THREE BOYS. SHE ALSO HEARD DAMIEN SAY THAT THE PERSON THAT HE WAS TALKING TO HAD BETTER NOT SAY ANYTHING TO ANYBODY OR THAT HE WOULD SEE WHAT WAS COMING NEXT.

I HAD RECEIVED INFORMATION FROM RACHAEL MYERS THAT SHELLY WOLF HAD HEARD THE CONVERSATION THAT DAMIEN WAS IN, HOWEVER, WHEN I WENT TO SHELLY WOLF’S HOME AT 504 BALFOUR SHE STATED THAT SHE HAD NOT HEARD THE STATEMENT FROM DAMIEN BUT THAT SHE HAD HEARD IT FROM HER FRIEND SHANNON BOALS.

KATIE LAFOY WAS VISITING WITH SHELLY AND, WHILE I WAS TALKING WITH SHELLY, CAME FORWARD WITH WHAT SHE HEARD AT THE GIRLS CLUB.

DETECTIVE B. RIDGE
WEST MEMPHIS POLICE DEPARTMENT


STATEMENT OF: Katie LaFoy
1976 N. Avalon #88
DOB: 12-18-79 S/R 732-****


On Tuesday 6-1-93 I heard Damien Echols talking to a bunch of girls, one was a Jody Medford. I heard him say "Yea that I'm going to do it to some more people too."
I heard some of the group talking about the murders of the boys and that is the reason he made the statement that she heard. I also heard him say that if that person said anything that he knew would get get them too to just see what was coming next. This statement is written by Detective Ridge at my request. Jason Baldwin was with Damien at the Ball Park when Damien made the statement.

Case doc # 003103


Jodee Medford
Rt 1 Box 550
Crawfordsville AR
About 2 weeks ago I was at the Girls Club softball field. And I heard Damien say "I killed the three little boys and before I turn myself in I am going to kill two more and I already have one picked out. I overheard him say this to a group of people when I was walking by him. I don't know him. I just know of him. And Jason Blawid and his girfriend Heather were standing by him. I was with my sister Jackee and her friend Christi Vanvickle. That was the first time I had ever seen Damien and the next night he was there too.
6/11/93 2:15pm.



Davidson: And were you and Jackie walking together?

VanVickle: Yes sir.

Davidson: And anybody else walking with you?

VanVickle: No sir.

Davidson: And uh - where had you been?

VanVickle: I had - we were walking back from the concession stand.

Davidson: Walking back from the concession to - what did you have with you?

VanVickle: I don't know.

Davidson: Did you buy anything there?

VanVickle: I can't remember.


_________

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/jmedford.html

(jodee medford)

Davidson: Had you been to the concession stand, is that what you said?

Medford: No, I was just walking around the corner, gonna go talk to some of my friends and I saw him and I heard him.

Davidson: Ok. Who were you with?

Medford: Noone. By myself.

Davidson: Nobody. Um - were you with uh - uh - Miss VanVickle that just testified?

Medford: No, we weren't together.

Davidson: You weren't together?

Medford: No sir.


__

Davidson: How many people were there with him?

Medford: I'd say about 6 or 7.

Davidson: 6 or 7. And who were these 6 or 7 people?

Medford: I don't know.

Davidson: Don't know 'em at all?

Medford: No sir.

Davidson: Could you pick them out today, if they were in the courtroom?

Medford: No sir.

Davidson: Ok. Did - when you say you heard this conversation, did you see, uh - Christy?

Medford: Uh uh.

Davidson: She wasn't around?

Medford: No sir.

Davidson: So, you were by yourself?

Medford: Yes sir.


_____


Davidson: In your earlier statement, you said you were with your sister, Jackie, didn't ya? You want to look at that? Right under the pink part.

Medford: I wasn't with her, but when I walked around, I saw - like at the corner with my mom. Talking to my mom.

Davidson: Oh, so - so when you made this earlier statement, this just wasn't right then, is that right? You weren't with her, is that right?

Medford: Right.

Davidson: Ok. And you also said that you were with her friend, Christy VanVickle.

Medford: Um hmm.

Davidson: Well, is that not right either?

Medford: They were talking to my mom, at the corner.

So that's a pile of CONFUSING testimony. What I'd like to see is a --succinct-- summary of who was where and with whom, when they heard what, at what distance, based on the testimony of that particular group of girls.

I'll put the pile of circular hearsay in the 'and other statements' pile, but it's good example of how gossip rips through kids like wildfire.

Now to FALSE testimony - Ms. Hutcheson. She admitted it was false.

Michael Carson - also admitted it was false.

Ausgirl said:

So that's a pile of CONFUSING testimony.

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Bolding statements and shouting about being confused doesn't come anywhere close to proving the witnesses' statements false.

Ausgirl said:

What I'd like to see is a --succinct-- summary of who was where and with whom, when they heard what, at what distance, based on the testimony of that particular group of girls.

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And I'd really enjoy a plate of gummy shark and chips, but I'm not expecting anyone to provide me with such.

Ausgirl said:

Now to FALSE testimony - Ms. Hutcheson. She admitted it was false.

Michael Carson - also admitted it was false.

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Or perhaps they lied when recanting true testimony.