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  1. #1
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    What I really don't get is...

    ... how there are still people who cannot see that the original investigation and trials were incredibly flawed, therefore the WM3 did not get a fair trial and, really, had no hope of one.

    The question of guilt is another thing -- they very well may be guilty, so I get why there's room for argument there. I really do. No worries there.

    But... the corruption, the obvious railroading, the tainted jury...

    Injustice happened. Arkansas took a sleazy way out of admitting it, via Alford. Now the WM3 are free. The end. What is the --point-- of abject denial of this, when it actually has little to do with the matter of guilt or innocence?
    _____________
    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  2. #2
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    Let's stop with the personal and snarky comments.

    You know who you are.

    tia
    fran

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    ... how there are still people who cannot see that the original investigation and trials were incredibly flawed, therefore the WM3 did not get a fair trial and, really, had no hope of one.

    The question of guilt is another thing -- they very well may be guilty, so I get why there's room for argument there. I really do. No worries there.

    But... the corruption, the obvious railroading, the tainted jury...

    Injustice happened. Arkansas took a sleazy way out of admitting it, via Alford. Now the WM3 are free. The end. What is the --point-- of abject denial of this, when it actually has little to do with the matter of guilt or innocence?
    I completely agree. The trial was horrible, the evidence was just ludicrous and yet they convicted 3 young men without any real evidence.
    I find it scary. I do not know how this prosecution sleeps at night.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  4. #4
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    Well. To be fair, there was a square ton of pressure on the heads of every person connected to this case. I can understand desperate measures, you know?

    eta: And Echols and Misskelley -made themselves- really good suspects, thanks to their own cruddy behaviour. Let's not forget that fact (Baldwin was guilty, as the lawyer said, by association, and that's my general opinion there).

    But there's a line where it all becomes corrupt.. and I think WMPD had already well and truly crossed that line long before these murders. Never mind the expected sort of behaviour under pressure, and honest-but-slipshod mistakes made. They had some serious rackets going on there, and every reason to want the case tied up fast and the spotlight off them, and some positive press.

    There's a quite scary page on jivepuppi's site, with a list of officers involved with the search and the various charges brought against them in months and years to come. Dodgy drug stuff, stolen weapons, a crapton of money... Many lost thier jobs for outright theft, and one was fired (but, mind you, NOT convicted) for demanding sex from a 14 yo girl and making 'terroristic' threats to her, when she didn't want his fat manatee carcass all over hers. Gross. Yeah, that's the guy you want on board your child's murder case.

    Just reprehensible, the lot of it. And interesting how many surnames in that article are shared by other POI's in the case. :\

    So I'm no longer surprised at some of the underhanded interview tactics, you know? What's that, compared to the rest of what was going on, and all the blind eyes turned for however long they were turned..

    The bigger picture may explain a LOT, you know?

    Still has nothing to do with actual guilt or innocence, but it is relevant to the reasons the WM3 are currently free, however anyone feels about that.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 12-09-2013 at 03:57 PM.
    _____________
    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    Well. To be fair, there was a square ton of pressure on the heads of every person connected to this case. I can understand desperate measures, you know?

    But there's a line where it all becomes corrupt.. and I think WMPD had already well and truly crossed that line long before these murders. Never mind the expected sort of pressure, and honest-but-slipshod mistakes made. They had some serious rackets going on, and every reason to want the case tied up fast and the spotlight off them, and some positive press.

    There's a quite scary page on jivepuppi's site, with a list of officers involved with the search and the various charges brought against them in months and years to come. Dodgy drug stuff, stolen weapons, a crapton of money... Many lost thier jobs for outright theft, and one was convicted for demanding sex from a 14 yo girl and making 'terroristic' threats to her, when she didn't want his fat manatee carcass all over hers. Gross. Yeah, that's the guy you want on board your child's murder case.

    Just reprehensible, the lot of it.

    So I'm no longer surprised at some of the underhanded interview tactics, you know? What's that, compared to the rest of what was going on, and all the blind eyes turned for however long they were turned..

    The bigger picture may explain a LOT, you know?

    Still has nothing to do with actual guilt or innocence, but it is relevant to the reasons the WM3 are currently free, however anyone feels about that.
    Yes. I remember the case. I remember the need to get it solved but if you don't solve it correctly, and KNOW THAT, How could you not do something to make it right.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    ... how there are still people who cannot see that the original investigation and trials were incredibly flawed, therefore the WM3 did not get a fair trial and, really, had no hope of one.
    While I've seen flaws in the original investigation and trials evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt, I've not seen them evidenced to the extent that they support the conclusion that the three didn't get fair trials. However, I don't know how to address such snide attacks on those of us who do believe the three were rightly convicted as being in "abject denial" without my response being taken personally.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  7. #7
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    They did not get fair trials. The fact that they were all convicted with not one direct piece of evidence shows the railroad effect.. They wanted someone in jail quick and they got it.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  8. #8
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    Echols was a POI for some really good reasons, too. Jessie also, if not so obvious, he liked to pick on smaller kids and had a temper plus some quick fists..

    There's for sure two sides, but there's a lot that wasn't right about the process that put them in jail, and ended up in an Alford plea. Even guilty men deserve a clean investigation and a fair trial.
    _____________
    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettScarpetta View Post
    The fact that they were all convicted with not one direct piece of evidence shows the railroad effect..
    They were in fact each convinced using both direct and circumstantial evidence, as deputy prosecutor Melanie Alsworth explained at the Alford plea hearing:

    MS. ALSWORTH: -- the Court can make
    13 findings.
    14 Your Honor, as far as the circumstantial
    15 evidence is concerned, the autopsy reports on
    16 the victims showed that there were many injuries
    17 that were consistent with multiple weapons being
    18 used. One was a sharp object, such as a knife.
    19 One weapon was consistent with the size of a
    20 broom handle. One weapon was large and blunt.
    21 Additional observations were the knots that
    22 were used to bind the victims. The knots were
    23 of three different types, indicating that more
    24 than one person was involved.
    25 Your Honor, I believe that there was

    26
    1 evidence collected in the form of fibers from
    2 some of the victims' clothing at the scene that
    3 was subsequently compared to fibers taken from
    4 two of the defendants' homes that were
    5 microscopically similar to the fibers collected
    6 from the victims' clothing.
    7 Also, Your Honor, there was a knife that
    8 was found in the lake behind Mr. Baldwin's
    9 residence. This knife was a survival-type
    10 knife. Believe that the testimony could
    11 possibly establish that the pattern of the knife
    12 was consistent with some of the injuries on the
    13 victims. Testimony from the State would
    14 establish that Mr. Echols was known to carry a
    15 knife very similar to this, with the only
    16 exception on the end of his knife was a compass
    17 that was not present on the knife that was
    18 recovered from the lake.
    19 Your Honor, as far as the direct evidence
    20 is concerned, would point the Court to the
    21 statements that the State would introduce that
    22 were allegedly made by Mr. Echols, admitting his
    23 involvement in this case, which was overheard by
    24 girls at a softball game.
    25 Regarding Mr. Baldwin, he allegedly made a

    27
    1 statement while he was in juvenile detention to
    2 another detainee in Craighead County.
    3 And with Mr. Misskelley, he made statements
    4 to law enforcement officers after he was
    5 Mirandized, implicating himself in these crimes.
    6 The facts from Mr. Misskelley's statement and
    7 what we allege Mr. Baldwin's statement to be are
    8 consistent with the actual evidence in the case
    9 and we'd ask you to consider those as well.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    ... how there are still people who cannot see that the original investigation and trials were incredibly flawed, therefore the WM3 did not get a fair trial and, really, had no hope of one.

    The question of guilt is another thing -- they very well may be guilty, so I get why there's room for argument there. I really do. No worries there.

    But... the corruption, the obvious railroading, the tainted jury...

    Injustice happened. Arkansas took a sleazy way out of admitting it, via Alford. Now the WM3 are free. The end. What is the --point-- of abject denial of this, when it actually has little to do with the matter of guilt or innocence?
    It's a mindset Aus and no words said here are going to change that. Such persons have to be right in all regards and the other person has to be wrong in all regards, regardless of what the point is or how well established that point is. For that person, it is not about critically analyzing facts but it is more about I'm right, you're wrong. There is no changing it and therefore no sense fighting it. Just my take on it.

    BTW - Your ability to look at all sides, accept all possibilities and analyze facts from that basis is a breath of fresh air.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    Well. To be fair, there was a square ton of pressure on the heads of every person connected to this case. I can understand desperate measures, you know?

    eta: And Echols and Misskelley -made themselves- really good suspects, thanks to their own cruddy behaviour. Let's not forget that fact (Baldwin was guilty, as the lawyer said, by association, and that's my general opinion there).

    But there's a line where it all becomes corrupt.. and I think WMPD had already well and truly crossed that line long before these murders. Never mind the expected sort of behaviour under pressure, and honest-but-slipshod mistakes made. They had some serious rackets going on there, and every reason to want the case tied up fast and the spotlight off them, and some positive press.

    There's a quite scary page on jivepuppi's site, with a list of officers involved with the search and the various charges brought against them in months and years to come. Dodgy drug stuff, stolen weapons, a crapton of money... Many lost thier jobs for outright theft, and one was fired (but, mind you, NOT convicted) for demanding sex from a 14 yo girl and making 'terroristic' threats to her, when she didn't want his fat manatee carcass all over hers. Gross. Yeah, that's the guy you want on board your child's murder case.

    Just reprehensible, the lot of it. And interesting how many surnames in that article are shared by other POI's in the case. :\

    So I'm no longer surprised at some of the underhanded interview tactics, you know? What's that, compared to the rest of what was going on, and all the blind eyes turned for however long they were turned..

    The bigger picture may explain a LOT, you know?

    Still has nothing to do with actual guilt or innocence, but it is relevant to the reasons the WM3 are currently free, however anyone feels about that.
    I Agree with everything Ausie you just hit the nail on the head!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    Echols was a POI for some really good reasons, too. Jessie also, if not so obvious, he liked to pick on smaller kids and had a temper plus some quick fists..

    There's for sure two sides, but there's a lot that wasn't right about the process that put them in jail, and ended up in an Alford plea. Even guilty men deserve a clean investigation and a fair trial.
    This is true. I really applaud your efforts in this case.

    My problem is that without a fair trial there is no justice. There is not justice in the case nor will there be until there is a real investigation into the evidence in this case.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettScarpetta View Post
    This is true. I really applaud your efforts in this case.

    My problem is that without a fair trial there is no justice. There is not justice in the case nor will there be until there is a real investigation into the evidence in this case.
    Exactly.

    We can't have that now because the men responsible have plead guilty and there is no ongoing investigation. The defense/defendants claim they are still investigating, but we haven't seen any evidence other than witnesses recanting for some reason.

    I think they like the propaganda and it has been very lucrative for them to continue with this 'who did it' because they are making tons of money.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UdbCrzy2 View Post
    Exactly.

    We can't have that now because the men responsible have plead guilty and there is no ongoing investigation. The defense/defendants claim they are still investigating, but we haven't seen any evidence other than witnesses recanting for some reason.

    I think they like the propaganda and it has been very lucrative for them to continue with this 'who did it' because they are making tons of money.
    In your opinion. They did plead guilty but they maintained their innocence. And it is now up to the prosecutor to make sure justice is served. Not them. They should be ashamed for that trial and what they used as evidence.
    Last edited by ScarlettScarpetta; 12-10-2013 at 01:09 PM.
    Atticus Finch: “You never really understand a person . . . until you consider things from his point of view.” To Kill A Mockingbird

    All my posts are my opinion only.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettScarpetta View Post
    In your opinion. They did plead guilty but they maintained their innocence. And it is now up to the prosecutor to make sure justice is served. Not them. They should be ashamed for that trial and what they used as evidence.
    Why didn't they go to trial instead of pleading guilty since they claim to have evidence to prove them innocent?

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