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  1. #1
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    Q: Were the victims raped, as JM described?

    A: No.

    Because all of the properly qualified people who examined the evidence say so.

    The end.
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    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  2. #2
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    The correct answer is indeterminate, as child abuse experts such as Dr. Joyce A. Adams note "Both the hymen of a pubertal girl and the anus of a child can stretch to allow penetration without causing tears" on slide 10 of her presentation “Doctor, was there penetration?” Why we usually can’t tell by looking. And slide 40 shows the various physical indicators anal penetration are quite rare even when such penetration is probable:



    Also, Dr. Anna S. Botash further explains:

    Clinical findings in sexual abuse are rare. A "negative" or normal examination does not exclude the possibility of sexual abuse... Having no physical findings after sexual abuse is an expected finding. Therefore, the fact that there are no findings or signs of injury may be consistent with a history of sexual abuse, even though it does not provide further evidence to support the history.

    There are several reasons for lack of physical findings and forensic evidence in sexually abused children and adolescents. They include the following:

    ...
    • Evidence of ejaculate is unlikely to be found if many hours have elapsed since the assault (particularly if more than 96 hours).

    • Semen and evidence of ejaculate are unlikely to be found in sexually abused children if the child has washed, urinated, or defecated.

    • Rape can occur without ejaculation or damage to tissues.

      ...

    • The anal sphincter is highly elastic and may not be damaged by penetration.
    Last edited by kyleb; 12-11-2013 at 01:52 AM.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
    The correct answer is indeterminate, as child abuse experts such as Dr. Joyce A. Adams noting "Both the hymen of a pubertal girl and the anus of a child can stretch to allow penetration without causing tears" on slide 10 of her presentation “Doctor, was there penetration?” Why we usually can’t tell by looking. Also, slide 40 shows the various physical indicators anal penetration are quite rare even when such penetration is probable:



    Also, Dr. Anna S. Botash further explains:
    This doctor was retained by which side? And what findings specific to this case did she make? I may have read right past it. Again on my phone so my apologies if I did.

  4. #4
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    In that little chart up there, I can't see whether the figures are regarding chronic abuse or violent rape.

    There IS a difference. And usually, very different kinds of signs and injuries.

    Interestingly, the Byers' were concerned that Chris might have been molested in the weeks prior to the murders. And there were concerns expressed over the question of longer term abuse in more the one victim, in regard to the autopsy findings, weren't there? IIRC Stevie Branch has some irritation on his penis that could indicate that.

    But violently raped at time of murder? No -- and the evidence backs that up, and the experts report NO sign of trauma. Until somebody shows me a violent anal rape in a child in which there's NO physical damage to tissue, I'm sticking with that as a fact.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    In that little chart up there, I can't see whether the figures are regarding chronic abuse or violent rape.
    That's a false dichotomy as chronic abuse can be quite violent, but all one can rightly conclude from absence of anal trauma is that there wasn't any rape violent enough to cause such trauma, be it regarding this case or any other. Of course experts hired to defend the three have argued otherwise as such experts do in many other cases, but that's what they're paid to do.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    A: No.

    Because all of the properly qualified people who examined the evidence say so.

    The end.
    ^This.

  7. #7
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    I must assert, because there might be some people who just don't grasp it - that there's NO way a child being forcibly sodomised, in the way Misskelley describes it happening, is going to avoid physical damage to tissue.

    I'm trying to be delicate here. But I'm also saying -- if you haven't been forcibly raped as a child, then you cannot imagine how painful it is. You just cannot. It's agonising. You don't just lie there like a log and take it; if you are conscious at all you are GOING to resist in some way, and you cannot help it because it --is agony -- And it's agonising--- because there is tissue damage occurring. Especially when there is a struggle and the child is resistant.

    There is NO way all three of those kids were forcibly raped at all, let alone with enough force to produce anal distention, while receiving NO tissue damage at all, in the manner Misskelley describes. No way, no how.

    And for arguments to the contrary, I want to see more than one pissy little ambiguously designated graph. The burden of proof here, for me, is NOT on me.

    Because I --know-- what happens when an unwilling child is forcibly raped, and how impossible it is NOT to sustain damage. Really, that's all I have to say on it.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 12-11-2013 at 08:49 AM. Reason: clarification
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    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  8. #8
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    On second thought I'll try a different approach by asking: where in any of Misskelley's confessions does he describe struggle during anal penetration, or even suggest the boys were conscious at the time?
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleb View Post
    On second thought I'll try a different approach by asking: where in any of Misskelley's confessions does he describe struggle during anal penetration, or even suggest the boys were conscious at the time?
    Will this work?

    JESSIE: Jason was screwing him while Damian stuck his in his mouth
    RIDGE: Okay, how did he have sex with that one?
    JESSIE: He was holding him down like, and Jason had his legs up in the air and that little boy was kicking, saying, 'don't, no' like that.

  10. #10
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    The next few lines from that confession are worth considering too:

    RIDGE: Okay, he had his legs up in the air, alright, what was to keep the little boys from running off, but just their hands are tied, what's to keep them from running off?
    JESSIE: They beat them up so bad so they can't hardly move, they had their hands tied down and he sit on them
    RIDGE: You said that they had their hands tied up, tied down, were they hands tied in a fashion that they couldn't have run, you tell me.
    JESSIE: They could run, they just had them tied, when they knocked them down and stuff, they could move their arms and stuff, and hold them down like, wake up and raise up and the other one just put his legs up.
    The "wake up" part in particular suggests the boys were in and out of consciousness, and hence weren't necessarily conscious enough to violently resist during anal penetration.
    The Master said, "In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself." — Confucius, The Doctrine of the Mean, James Legge translation

    Failure is an opportunity. If you blame someone else, there is no end to the blame. Therefore the Master fulfills her own obligations and corrects her own mistakes. She does what she needs to do and demands nothing of others. — Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation


  11. #11
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    Kicking and talking while Jason was having sex with him. I think that's clear enough. I'd say he used wake up in the same context as raise up. As the quoted text shows "they could run, they just had them tied"

  12. #12
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    Those kids weren't raped. I know it (and how dare you, kyle, diminish an agonising rape down to a logical fallacy, just to win a point in an argument? oughta be damn ashamed of yourself).

    That big pile of medical experts who examined the evidence knew it.

    The only people who -don't- know it are those still clinging to the idea Misskelley's confession was 100% accurate.

    Just a giant pile of .
    _____________
    Everything I have posted at this website, past or present, represents my opinion or my understanding of events based on facts that are publicly available.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gheckso View Post
    Kicking and talking while Jason was having sex with him. I think that's clear enough. I'd say he used wake up in the same context as raise up. As the quoted text shows "they could run, they just had them tied"
    I agree, but even if they had been unconscious, that wouldn't make it non-violent. What Jessie described was three teenage boys acting like drunken savage animals and violently raping those little boys. There is just no way there wouldn't have been at least some sign on one of the boys. Do I believe it's possible to rape a child and leave no sign? Yes. Do I believe it's possible that Damien and Jason did what Jessie described and left no signs of it? No possible way. How disgusting.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #14
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    I wasn't going to bother. something was asked. I provided it, deflected.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    I must assert, because there might be some people who just don't grasp it - that there's NO way a child being forcibly sodomised, in the way Misskelley describes it happening, is going to avoid physical damage to tissue.

    I'm trying to be delicate here. But I'm also saying -- if you haven't been forcibly raped as a child, then you cannot imagine how painful it is. You just cannot. It's agonising. You don't just lie there like a log and take it; if you are conscious at all you are GOING to resist in some way, and you cannot help it because it --is agony -- And it's agonising--- because there is tissue damage occurring. Especially when there is a struggle and the child is resistant.

    There is NO way all three of those kids were forcibly raped at all, let alone with enough force to produce anal distention, while receiving NO tissue damage at all, in the manner Misskelley describes. No way, no how.

    And for arguments to the contrary, I want to see more than one pissy little ambiguously designated graph. The burden of proof here, for me, is NOT on me.

    Because I --know-- what happens when an unwilling child is forcibly raped, and how impossible it is NOT to sustain damage. Really, that's all I have to say on it.
    I'm so sorry that happened to you Ausgirl

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