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  1. #1
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    Why the tape?

    The "re-ordered American girl doll" thread got me thinking. I'm absolutely positive that the tape on JB mouth came from the back of an American girl doll. But now I'm wondering, why the tape? Why put tape on her mouth at all? I get that it was just staging, but, why was it "necessary"? Especially since using tape just gives police one more thing to trace back to the Ramsey's (who bought the tape, who could've had tape residue on their fingers etc) Wouldn't it have been smarter and easier to not put tape over her at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pageantmom View Post
    The "re-ordered American girl doll" thread got me thinking. I'm absolutely positive that the tape on JB mouth came from the back of an American girl doll. But now I'm wondering, why the tape? Why put tape on her mouth at all? I get that it was just staging, but, why was it "necessary"? Especially since using tape just gives police one more thing to trace back to the Ramsey's (who bought the tape, who could've had tape residue on their fingers etc) Wouldn't it have been smarter and easier to not put tape over her at all?
    I think it's Patsy's dramatic flair in action. It was not enough JB was tied and garroted, she also had to be gagged with the tape, for a full dramatic effect. Ramseys didn't think thooughly enough many details, for instance the ransom note, written on their notepad, with their pen. Or the ties and garrote made of their rope and their brush. Or the panties, size 12, perfectionist Patsy put on JB the Wednesday pair, because it was Wednesday, totally overlooking the fact, that the oversized underwear screamed redressing (John would grab any panties in his reach, no matter the weekday).
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    I don’t know if the tape that was on JonBenet’s mouth matches that which came with the doll or not (attached below is a picture for reference). But as for why it was placed on her, I’d have to guess it was to answer Patsy’s rhetorical question that she asked repeatedly after JonBenet’s body was “found”.

    From Wikipedia:
    A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint. Though classically stated as a proper question, such a device may be posed declaratively but implying a question, and therefore may not always require a question mark when written. Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

    A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?". This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.

    Although sometimes amusing and even humorous, rhetorical questions are rarely meant for pure, comedic effect. A carefully crafted question can, if delivered well, persuade an audience to believe in the position(s) of the speaker.

    In simple terms, it is a question asked more to produce an effect than to summon an answer.
    Patsy’s rhetorical question was, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?” The intended effect of the question was to make anyone believe the tape was placed on JonBenet by an intruder in order to keep her quiet so no one in the house would hear her, and thus were unable to come and save her.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexe View Post
    I think it's Patsy's dramatic flair in action. It was not enough JB was tied and garroted, she also had to be gagged with the tape, for a full dramatic effect. Ramseys didn't think thooughly enough many details, for instance the ransom note, written on their notepad, with their pen. Or the ties and garrote made of their rope and their brush. Or the panties, size 12, perfectionist Patsy put on JB the Wednesday pair, because it was Wednesday, totally overlooking the fact, that the oversized underwear screamed redressing (John would grab any panties in his reach, no matter the weekday).
    PR was not known to be the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don’t know if the tape that was on JonBenet’s mouth matches that which came with the doll or not (attached below is a picture for reference). But as for why it was placed on her, I’d have to guess it was to answer Patsy’s rhetorical question that she asked repeatedly after JonBenet’s body was “found”.

    From Wikipedia:
    A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint. Though classically stated as a proper question, such a device may be posed declaratively but implying a question, and therefore may not always require a question mark when written. Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

    A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?". This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.

    Although sometimes amusing and even humorous, rhetorical questions are rarely meant for pure, comedic effect. A carefully crafted question can, if delivered well, persuade an audience to believe in the position(s) of the speaker.

    In simple terms, it is a question asked more to produce an effect than to summon an answer.
    Patsy’s rhetorical question was, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?” The intended effect of the question was to make anyone believe the tape was placed on JonBenet by an intruder in order to keep her quiet so no one in the house would hear her, and thus were unable to come and save her.
    I think this makes PERFECT sense. It's so clear now, but I never would've thought of it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don’t know if the tape that was on JonBenet’s mouth matches that which came with the doll or not (attached below is a picture for reference). But as for why it was placed on her, I’d have to guess it was to answer Patsy’s rhetorical question that she asked repeatedly after JonBenet’s body was “found”.

    From Wikipedia:
    A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint. Though classically stated as a proper question, such a device may be posed declaratively but implying a question, and therefore may not always require a question mark when written. Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

    A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?". This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.

    Although sometimes amusing and even humorous, rhetorical questions are rarely meant for pure, comedic effect. A carefully crafted question can, if delivered well, persuade an audience to believe in the position(s) of the speaker.

    In simple terms, it is a question asked more to produce an effect than to summon an answer.
    Patsy’s rhetorical question was, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?” The intended effect of the question was to make anyone believe the tape was placed on JonBenet by an intruder in order to keep her quiet so no one in the house would hear her, and thus were unable to come and save her.
    Brilliant answer OTG! (as usual) That makes perfect sense, and IMO, is exactly why she kept asking the question.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don’t know if the tape that was on JonBenet’s mouth matches that which came with the doll or not (attached below is a picture for reference). But as for why it was placed on her, I’d have to guess it was to answer Patsy’s rhetorical question that she asked repeatedly after JonBenet’s body was “found”.

    From Wikipedia:
    A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint. Though classically stated as a proper question, such a device may be posed declaratively but implying a question, and therefore may not always require a question mark when written. Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

    A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?". This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.

    Although sometimes amusing and even humorous, rhetorical questions are rarely meant for pure, comedic effect. A carefully crafted question can, if delivered well, persuade an audience to believe in the position(s) of the speaker.

    In simple terms, it is a question asked more to produce an effect than to summon an answer.
    Patsy’s rhetorical question was, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?” The intended effect of the question was to make anyone believe the tape was placed on JonBenet by an intruder in order to keep her quiet so no one in the house would hear her, and thus were unable to come and save her.
    Agree with Nom. Brilliant.

    And, because we know something about PR, rhetorical with a pretty good addition of “dramatic”. When I heard that PR was said, under pretty good medication, to have asked a friend PG, “Can’t you fix this?” . . .”They killed my baby.” I wondered if it was some kind of slip. But then it occurred to me that she was still in drama phase, like when she sought divine intervention to raise JB as Lazarus was raised. Come to think of it, I’m not sure PR ever left that drama phase, even up to her last plea to LA to help find the killer. moo

  8. #8
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    It is brilliant. I've wondered if Patsy regularly called JonBenet her baby or if that was a new dramatic thing. She wasn't screaming JonBenet's name or even saying our baby. It was MY baby.

  9. #9
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    Don't be so sure Patsy was the dimmest bulb on the Christmas tree. She had a degree in Journalism. I do think she liked to PLAY dumb, though.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageantmom View Post
    The "re-ordered American girl doll" thread got me thinking. I'm absolutely positive that the tape on JB mouth came from the back of an American girl doll. But now I'm wondering, why the tape? Why put tape on her mouth at all? I get that it was just staging, but, why was it "necessary"? Especially since using tape just gives police one more thing to trace back to the Ramsey's (who bought the tape, who could've had tape residue on their fingers etc) Wouldn't it have been smarter and easier to not put tape over her at all?
    IMO, someone (JR) had the idea of tape being over the mouth as being something to add to the staging that had already been done. It may well have been an afterthought as he was examining his/their staging work and asking, what else could I/we do to make this look more realistically like something an intruder would do? Remember it is was very important to the Ramsey's to make the crime scene look as much like something an intruder had done as possible, to point attention away from the family as being the perps. Anything that would add to that illusion they were trying to create was a plus. So the tape, while non-essential, was considered important for the "intruder" staging. This why the tape was put on the mouth, and it is logical. This is JR's logical mind at work. People keep wanting to just look at PR for the staging and get confused by something like this, but when you add JR was the staging mastermind, you see his thinking in this, along with many other things. Not having the tape would be one less thing pointing to an intruder, and thus one more thing pointing at the Ramsey's themselves.


  11. #11
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    Question I'm not so sure...

    Quote Originally Posted by otg View Post
    I don’t know if the tape that was on JonBenet’s mouth matches that which came with the doll or not (attached below is a picture for reference). But as for why it was placed on her, I’d have to guess it was to answer Patsy’s rhetorical question that she asked repeatedly after JonBenet’s body was “found”.

    From Wikipedia:
    A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked in order to make a point. The question, a rhetorical device, is posed not to elicit a specific answer, but rather to encourage the listener to consider a message or viewpoint. Though classically stated as a proper question, such a device may be posed declaratively but implying a question, and therefore may not always require a question mark when written. Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

    A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?". This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.

    Although sometimes amusing and even humorous, rhetorical questions are rarely meant for pure, comedic effect. A carefully crafted question can, if delivered well, persuade an audience to believe in the position(s) of the speaker.

    In simple terms, it is a question asked more to produce an effect than to summon an answer.
    Patsy’s rhetorical question was, “Why didn’t I hear my baby?” The intended effect of the question was to make anyone believe the tape was placed on JonBenet by an intruder in order to keep her quiet so no one in the house would hear her, and thus were unable to come and save her.
    The tape, depicted in the photo within your post, doesn't seem to be consistent with the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth. I question the photographed tape for a number of reasons. I haven't had an opportunity to post much today, but I uploaded a couple of images, yesterday, in an attempt to highlight my curiousity:

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10083308&postcount=65"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2[/ame]

    ---

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10083327&postcount=66"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2[/ame]

    ---

    Of course this is just a question mark in my mind, and I'm no expert...
    Last edited by Mama2JML; 01-02-2014 at 05:32 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    The tape, depicted in the photo within your post, doesn't seem to be consistent with the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth. I question the photographed tape for a number of reasons. I haven't had an opportunity to post much today, but I uploaded a couple of images, yesterday, in an attempt to highlight my curiousity:

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

    ---

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

    ---

    Of course this is just a question mark in my mind, and I'm no expert...
    First off I'd like to say PLEASE Mama2JML, if you're going to post an autopsy photo please let people know. Some of us have a hard time looking at them (like me) and I wouldn't have looked with fair warning.

    Since I did look, and tried to be clinical about it I will say that the metric ruler was at an angle off of the lips that would make it difficult to get a true measurement of the width actually over the lips. Also, the blanching of the skin appears to be wider over the lower cheeks (the jowl area).

    Either way, are you suggesting that the "duct tape photo" as presented in the BPD's evidence was a fake duct tape photo? Why would anyone produce a fake duct tape photo? It doesn't take away from the fact that there was duct tape on her mouth, right? Whether it was AG tape, or some off the wall brand.
    Last edited by CherCher; 01-02-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    The tape, depicted in the photo within your post, doesn't seem to be consistent with the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth. I question the photographed tape for a number of reasons. I haven't had an opportunity to post much today, but I uploaded a couple of images, yesterday, in an attempt to highlight my curiousity:

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

    ---

    Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

    ---

    Of course this is just a question mark in my mind, and I'm no expert...
    Quote Originally Posted by CherCher View Post
    First off I'd like to say PLEASE Mama2JML, if you're going to post an autopsy photo please let people know. Some of us have a hard time looking at them (like me) and I wouldn't have looked with fair warning.
    I'm sorry. I should have included a warning...

    Since I did look, and tried to be clinical about it I will say that the metric ruler was at an angle off of the lips that would make it difficult to get a true measurement of the width actually over the lips.
    True. That's why I measured the width of the area where it appears (to me) the tape had been in place, THEN copied & pasted the segment near the ruler.
    Also, the blanching of the skin appears to be wider over the lower cheeks (the jowl area).
    My emphasis is the tape covering her mouth.

    Either way, are you suggesting that the "duct tape photo" as presented in the BPD's evidence was a fake duct tape photo?
    No.
    Why would anyone produce a fake duct tape photo? It doesn't take away from the fact that there was duct tape on her mouth, right? Whether it was AG tape, or some off the wall brand.
    Not at all.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama2JML View Post
    The tape, depicted in the photo within your post, doesn't seem to be consistent with the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth. I question the photographed tape for a number of reasons. I haven't had an opportunity to post much today, but I uploaded a couple of images, yesterday, in an attempt to highlight my curiousity:

    ---

    Of course this is just a question mark in my mind, and I'm no expert...
    Good! We have something in common, Mama -- neither am I.

    But since you asked, here are my thoughts on the tape:

    The picture of the tape with a forensic scale is an actual evidence photo. It shows a piece of tape that is approximately 2” wide by 5.5” long (14 cm). Regardless of what JR remembered while being interviewed, it is what it is. Whether it came from a roll recently purchased by someone in the household, or whether it came from the back of a doll, or even if it came from someone who brought it into the house, I have no way of knowing with the information we have available. I recognize any of these as a possibility.

    The crime scene photo of the blanket (numbered 149) shows something that appears to be a grey or light colored piece of something of approximately the same size. This was discussed at length in a thread at FFJ started by KoldKase. But Cynic puts up a great argument there that what we see may be simply a shadow cast by the lighting used to illuminate the basement during photographic evidence collection. We know that the lighter side of the tape would be the sticky side and that the outer surface was black. (Photo of a different brand of the same type of tape attached below which used to be referred to as "gaffer's tape". It uses a different type of adhesive which makes it more easily removed without leaving a residue.) It does seem odd to me (but not beyond possible) that when the tape was removed by JR and cast aside, it just happened to fall on the back (non-sticky) side because of the difficulty in getting a piece of sticky tape unstuck from the hand that removed it from another surface. Again, there seems to me to be too much uncertainty to be able to put much into that with no more information than we have.

    However, looking at the only leaked photo (which I’d rather not repost) showing JonBenet’s mouth, it is tempting to try and figure out where the tape would have been placed before it was removed. There are several different patterns of different colors, but they might not be indications of where the tape was. If you draw lines along the borders of each different color pattern, you might guess that the tape was across her mouth and that the edges of the tape would be at the end of the lighter areas. That would make the tape less than 2” wide (as you pointed out in your post), assuming it was stretched out across its width. But were the darker areas the result of fluids that ran down her cheek after the tape was there, or were they there before the tape was applied and removed from the skin surface when it was pulled off? Forensic examiners should know the answers to those questions and might, since the photo of the tape shows two identified areas of “stain”. But this still doesn’t account for the 2” width that we know the tape had. Even if you measure 2” down from below your own nose, you’ll see it goes to at least the middle of your chin unless you open your mouth enough. My opinion is that the tape that was placed over her mouth did not have enough adhesive to leave a noticeable residue after it was removed, and therefore is not visible in the photo of her face.

    All in all, I wouldn’t try to spend too much time trying to figure out exactly where the tape was on JonBenet’s mouth. I don’t think that with the one photo we have seen we can do that. Unless you see something of more significance than I do in it (and I know that’s a possibility), I don’t think it’s important enough to dwell on it.

    Thoughts?
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