Timelines

One thing that frustrates me about this forum is the endless discussions about details of this case without ever striving to put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Maybe it has been done before, but what I would love to see is for one or more timelines to be created. My definition of a timeline this: It explains what happened as a sequence of events from the morning of 12-25 until the time JB's dead body was shown to Linda Arndt by JR bringing her up from the basement. It must explain all of the known evidence. This would be a lot of work and take a lot of thought, but the rewards of doing so could be significant. For one thing it would allow a consistent theory to be built from the ground up which could be subjected to tests by other members, to see how well it fit the evidence. Like a scientific theory, it could be refined and tested. We have many intelligent knowledgable people posting here, and I challenge one or more of you to consider doing this. What I sense we are doing is getting lost in a forest of details and theories. What I want to see is for us to focus on a solution. Any criminal case would have to be based on such a solution. Let's pave the wave for it right here on WS.

Ever heard of Weiler's law?

otg said:

Ever heard of Weiler's law?

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So you want me to start a timeline? I would, but I honestly have no idea at this point who killed JB. I am not confident in any theory I have ever seen put forward, however I might be persuaded with such a timeline. What I do know is that to continue as we have been serves no real purpose other than entertainment. Yes, that's right. Entertainment. At some point we have to admit that and seek for something better.

Anyhoo said:

So you want me to start a timeline? I would, but I honestly have no idea at this point who killed JB. I am not confident in any theory I have ever seen put forward, however I might be persuaded with such a timeline. What I do know is that to continue as we have been serves no real purpose other than entertainment. Yes, that's right. Entertainment. At some point we have to admit that and seek for something better.

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Starting a timeline is a great idea Anyhoo. I nominate you to take on the project. IMO it isn't necessary to have an initial theory. As you work through the facts, you may develop one.

Many of us who have followed this case closely since the beginning, have read volumes of evidence, testimony, reports and experts' publications, would disagree with your notion that the JBR Forum is merely entertainment.

The problem is that there are just so many pieces of the puzzle and some of them fit and some of them don't. And just when you think you have it solved, there is that one little piece that doesn't fit.

DeeDee249 said:

The problem is that there are just so many pieces of the puzzle and some of them fit and some of them don't. And just when you think you have it solved, there is that one little piece that doesn't fit.

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True that, but we know that, as contradictory as the evidence may appear, there is one single explanation for all of it. Some of that explanation will undoubtedly be staging and lies. And I didn't mean to sound callous when I made my 'entertainment' statement. All I meant was that all this discussion isn't really doing any good if it does not lead to a solution. We can go around in circles for years and at the end of it be no closer to a solution than when we started. I ask myself and others, what good is that? I want more than anything to solve the crime first and then seek to hold those who are still alive accountable for their actions. Jonbenet deserves that. Maybe I haven't stated it the best way, but most of you know what I mean. I would like to see at four different timelines, one for JDI, one for PDI, one for BDI, and one for IDI. We have a huge amount of information that needs to put together. That is the difficulty of it but it can be done.

(bbm)

Anyhoo said:

So you want me to start a timeline?

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It's not I who made the suggestion to begin with, Anyhoo. I'm just pointing out that if you want something done, you shouldn't ask others to bear the burden if you're not willing to put in some labor on it yourself.

I would, but I honestly have no idea at this point who killed JB.

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A timeline of events shouldn't be dependent on any theory. If valid, an objective timeline should help in arriving at a theory (or invalidating one). Knowing who killed JonBenet has absolutely nothing to do with constructing a timeline.

I am not confident in any theory I have ever seen put forward, however I might be persuaded with such a timeline.

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Promises, promises. No one here feels compelled to persuade someone else of something other than, perhaps, the validity of known evidence.

What I do know is that to continue as we have been serves no real purpose other than entertainment. Yes, that's right. Entertainment. At some point we have to admit that and seek for something better.

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Seek... and you shall find.

There was at one time a very well known timeline. It was constructed by an avowed (some might even say rabid) IDI Ramsey defender. I couldn't find it on even any web caches I looked for. It was extensive. The problem in making a timeline is that there are different published accounts of exact times of certain occurrences, and there are also overlaps in time on others. So in constructing a timeline, whoever the author is has to make decisions on what time to use. In that sense, the author's own personal beliefs may influence how they choose to represent some things. And even if the author tries to be totally objective, there will be those who question his/her (or hir) motivations.

There is another timeline by someone who really did try to document everything she could in an objective manner. On nearly detail she covers, she tried to give both sides to any argument. That website and timeline was created by Mrs. Marple. You'll find her timeline here. It hasn't been updated for a long time, but if you want to start your own timeline, it would be a good place to start.

otg said:

There was at one time a very well known timeline. It was constructed by an avowed (some might even say rabid) IDI Ramsey defender. I couldn't find it on even any web caches I looked for. It was extensive. The problem in making a timeline is that there are different published accounts of exact times of certain occurrences, and there are also overlaps in time on others. So in constructing a timeline, whoever the author is has to make decisions on what time to use. In that sense, the author's own personal beliefs may influence how they choose to represent some things. And even if the author tries to be totally objective, there will be those who question his/her (or hir) motivations.

There is another timeline by someone who really did try to document everything she could in an objective manner. On nearly detail she covers, she tried to give both sides to any argument. That website and timeline was created by Mrs. Marple. You'll find her timeline here. It hasn't been updated for a long time, but if you want to start your own timeline, it would be a good place to start.

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Thanks OTG. The referenced timeline is a good place to start but the problem with it is that it is apparently using statements by the Ramsey's of what happened as facts, such as JB falling asleep in the car and being carried inside and put to bed by JR. I would not consider the testimony of the prime suspects in the case to be fact and include those in my timeline. Great care must be taken in what to include and what to exclude. False testimony can easily corrupt a timeline and lead to false conclusions. But I will accept your challenge that I do my own timeline to see where it leads.

Anyhoo said:

Thanks OTG. The referenced timeline is a good place to start but the problem with it is that it is apparently using statements by the Ramsey's of what happened as facts, such as JB falling asleep in the car and being carried inside and put to bed by JR. I would not consider the testimony of the prime suspects in the case to be fact and include those in my timeline. Great care must be taken in what to include and what to exclude. False testimony can easily corrupt a timeline and lead to false conclusions. But I will accept your challenge that I do my own timeline to see where it leads.

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That's the problem...there may be some things that actually are true, but they are interwoven with things that are not true- it's hard to say for sure. Let's suppose she DID fall asleep in the car- many kids do. But let's say that she woke up (or was woken up) when they arrived home, so although she DID fall asleep in the car, she woke up and was able to walk into the house (as BR said she did). I agree that the testimony of the family cannot be taken as fact as a whole. I think we can start with the time they left the White's (because I feel the White's would not lie about that). Then, try to piece together which friends they actually stopped at on the way home (and hoping those friends would not lie about it). From there, it doesn't really matter whether she was asleep or awake when they got home, because at some point she DID eat the pineapple (FACT).
Going backwards, using the time they left the White's (about 9-9:30 pm) then using the time it took for the pineapple to reach her small intestine (about 2 hours) and the stage of rigor mortis she was in when found the next day at about 1 pm (FULL +5, which took about 12 hours to form) and I think we have a fairly reliable timeline for the pineapple to have been eaten between 10 & 11 pm and death to have occurred between 12 midnight and 1 am.

If you start here:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682451/Brief Chronology

you can work through a lot of timeline information already collected that might be of help.

Anyhoo said:

Thanks OTG. The referenced timeline is a good place to start but the problem with it is that it is apparently using statements by the Ramsey's of what happened as facts, such as JB falling asleep in the car and being carried inside and put to bed by JR. I would not consider the testimony of the prime suspects in the case to be fact and include those in my timeline.

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Agreed, Anyhoo. Some things that would need to be included are either questionable or unverifiable, but OTOH, can't be excluded. If only the exact, verified, known facts are included, it would be a pretty short timeline. What would those facts be? Time the Ramseys left the Whites' party, when the 911 call was received, arrival of officers, time JonBenet's body was brought upstairs, arrival of the coroner, and time of autopsy? Even accounts from investigators have been questioned by some here. But as DeeDee points out, we wouldn't have a very complete picture without including some reported events and those possible timeframes.

Great care must be taken in what to include and what to exclude. False testimony can easily corrupt a timeline and lead to false conclusions.

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Exactly. Maybe it would be helpful to put the timeline in a spreadsheet form. Known facts could be in black letters, Ramsey accounts from interviews and books in another color, and other witness accounts of events in yet another color. That way, an overall picture might develop with the amount of weight an individual using the timeline chooses to apply so they can form their own opinions. This would all be in an attempt to keep it as unbiased as possible.

But I will accept your challenge that I do my own timeline to see where it leads.

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"Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept..." (This is kind of starting to sound like the start of a Mission Impossible, eh Anyhoo?) Actually, it's not my challenge -- just my return volley to your serve. This could actually turn out quite helpful for all. Whose court is the ball in now? (The tennis metaphors seem rather apropos, considering I don't see this ever ending up in any other kind of court.)

If you follow the link provided at the end of this post, you’ll find my attempt at trying to create a timeline of events that took place in the approximate 24 hours surrounding JonBenet’s death. I don’t consider it complete or exact -- only a place to start in trying to piece together what makes sense between all the different accounts of what happened.

In making it, I considered the following accounts (I don’t have a copy of PMPT, so I have relied on ACR and questfortrue for references from it):

• PMPT (Schiller)
• IRMI (Thomas)
• FF: WRKJ (Kolar)
• Bonita Papers (Sauer)

I have not considered DOI (Ramseys) or TOSoS (Ramsey) -- haven’t read them, don’t know if I could stomach reading them, although I admire anyone who could. I don’t know how to resolve any Ramsey inconsistencies with other accounts (including their own) considering the information is coming from suspects with an interest in slanting the truth to their advantage.

I have not read all of the available testimony and depositions from the various court cases, but I would consider testimony given under oath (except by a suspect) to have more weight than one of the authors. If anyone would like for me to add anything to the timeline based on any other information, by all means let me know. I don’t consider it complete, but it’s as far as I can get based on what information I have available (without looking for and reading through published court testimony and depositions). Questfortrue has already helped by giving me references from sources I don’t have available. Anyone who thinks it would help to add something else can post the information here and I’ll add it and adjust the timeline if need be.

After looking over the timeline, I suggest that each of you make a copy of it which you can adjust according to what you believe happened or what information you choose to believe. Later I’ll post a timeline reflecting my “otg Theory” to show how each person can customize it to fit the pieces together and see if a theory fits with what is actually known. I’ll also post another timeline which shows what would have to have happened for Dr. Rorke’s 45 to 120 minute interval to work. I also welcome anyone who believes in complete Ramsey innocence to adjust it with whatever information that might be helpful to demonstrate how an intruder could have committed this. My opinion is that, if anything, it may show how unlikely it is that the intruder scenario is possible. (Consider this a challenge.) Knowing (realistically) digestion times for a child, when the Ramseys were home, where pineapple was available, etc. makes the intruder theories unlikely (IMO) -- as do other things when considered on a timeline.

I created this in Microsoft Excel because I feel it’s more helpful to look at it as a continuing line of time (hence -- a “timeline” :giggle rather than simply seeing the times listed sequentially and running down a page. In this format you can visualize the overlaps of different events and see where there might be conflicts between the different reported versions. If you don’t have Excel, there are free programs that might work well as a substitute. Here is a comparison of different programs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_spreadsheet_software

I tried converting it to a Google Docs spreadsheet, but some of the formatting was lost. I don’t know how well any others might work, so any suggestions will be appreciated. There is also a free program available for simply viewing Excel spreadsheets in case you don’t plan on altering anything. It can be downloaded here:

http://download.cnet.com/Free-Excel-Viewer/3000-2077_4-76084593.html

Here is the link (Mediafire) to the “JBR Timeline”:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/kt9lh3p4xilxkmk/JBR_Timeline.xls

How can you even think of producing an accurate timeline for this crime? The Ramsey's were purposely vague when it came to matters of time. Patsy managed to squeeze about 45 minutes worth of activity in to the 20 minutes she was awake on the morning of the crime. Basically all we know about the crime is what the Ramseys have stated, and most believe that to be fictional.

Now if you want a timeline of the history of Ramsey interviews and TV appearances, that would be doable, but a little pointless IMO.

andreww said:

How can you even think of producing an accurate timeline for this crime? The Ramsey's were purposely vague when it came to matters of time. Patsy managed to squeeze about 45 minutes worth of activity in to the 20 minutes she was awake on the morning of the crime. Basically all we know about the crime is what the Ramseys have stated, and most believe that to be fictional.

Now if you want a timeline of the history of Ramsey interviews and TV appearances, that would be doable, but a little pointless IMO.

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andreww,
Well for the uninitiated a timeline is completely irrelevent. It delights the pedants and strict theorists in the case.

JonbBenet was dead at some point between 11:30 PM and 1:30 AM so any timeline thereafter patently does not refer to JonBenet!

.

Where do you get that 11:30 to 1:30 estimate from? You know for a fact that she wasn't dead at 10:30?


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andreww said:

How can you even think of producing an accurate timeline for this crime? The Ramsey's were purposely vague when it came to matters of time. Patsy managed to squeeze about 45 minutes worth of activity in to the 20 minutes she was awake on the morning of the crime. Basically all we know about the crime is what the Ramseys have stated, and most believe that to be fictional.

Now if you want a timeline of the history of Ramsey interviews and TV appearances, that would be doable, but a little pointless IMO.

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That’s exactly the reason for the timeline. It demonstrates that some things are just impossible. Not only is Patsy’s activity in less than a half hour questionable, but look at the apparent super human abilities of John. The 911 call was received at 6:52 am (police records) and according to the Ramseys, John was squatted down on-all-fours in his underwear looking at the RN on the floor just outside the kitchen. The phone call lasted 1-1/2 minutes. The first responding officer (French) arrived at the residence at 5:59 am (police reports) and saw John standing in the entry hall completely dressed. According to John, after the 911 call he made a cursory search of the house and checked on a sleeping Burke. So just think about that for a moment. According to John and Patsy, in less than 6 minutes John was able to go up two flights of stairs, get dressed, check on Burke, search the house, come back down the two flights of stairs, and then be near the door waiting to greet the police when they arrived. (And Offc. French’s report doesn’t mention John being out of breath.)

So that just demonstrates why I don’t use the Ramsey accounts of events. Andreww, read again the sources I did use in making the timeline.

andreww said:

Where do you get that 11:30 to 1:30 estimate from? You know for a fact that she wasn't dead at 10:30?

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I think you mean the 11:30 to 2:00 period of time. Assuming that to be the case, you might read the label pointing to the blue line that says:


Some people will dispute that she was molested. Some will question whether she even ate pineapple. Many doubt that Melody Stanton heard a scream. But I tried to create it using reality. She WAS molested just before she died. She DID eat pineapple and it doesn’t take 8 to 12 hours for it to move from the stomach to the duodenum. And I believe there was a scream in the middle of the night. Not knowing with certainty, most sources refer to her as having died “after midnight”, “around midnight”, or even “in the early hours of Dec. 26”. I based that 11:30 to 2:00 time period around the time of the scream and other estimates of TOD. I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I added 30 minutes to the beginning of that time period to allow for the first of those four events.

As I said in the beginning of my post, “I don’t consider it complete or exact -- only a place to start in trying to piece together what makes sense between all the different accounts of what happened.” If you disagree with anything I have so far, you might try the suggestion I also wrote:
If you can come up with a more accurate or believable timeline -- good. Please do. This is only a place to start which began from the discussion earlier in this thread.

otg said:

That’s exactly the reason for the timeline. It demonstrates that some things are just impossible. Not only is Patsy’s activity in less than a half hour questionable, but look at the apparent super human abilities of John. The 911 call was received at 6:52 am (police records) and according to the Ramseys, John was squatted down on-all-fours in his underwear looking at the RN on the floor just outside the kitchen. The phone call lasted 1-1/2 minutes. The first responding officer (French) arrived at the residence at 5:59 am (police reports) and saw John standing in the entry hall completely dressed. According to John, after the 911 call he made a cursory search of the house and checked on a sleeping Burke. So just think about that for a moment. According to John and Patsy, in less than 6 minutes John was able to go up two flights of stairs, get dressed, check on Burke, search the house, come back down the two flights of stairs, and then be near the door waiting to greet the police when they arrived. (And Offc. French’s report doesn’t mention John being out of breath.)

So that just demonstrates why I don’t use the Ramsey accounts of events. Andreww, read again the sources I did use in making the timeline.

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Heyya otg,

So just think about that for a moment. According to John and Patsy, in less than 6 minutes John was able to go up two flights of stairs, get dressed, check on Burke, search the house, come back down the two flights of stairs, and then be near the door waiting to greet the police when they arrived. (And Offc. French’s report doesn’t mention John being out of breath.)

So that just demonstrates why I don’t use the Ramsey accounts of events. Andreww, read again the sources I did use in making the timeline - otg

.... in that same 'six minutes' BR may have ascended a flight, alone or escorted back to his room, if one is to believe the 911 call enhancement.


also, timeline's good, it's the voids that we're all interested in.

(sbm)

Tadpole12 said:

.... in that same 'six minutes' BR may have ascended a flight, alone or escorted back to his room, if one is to believe the 911 call enhancement.

also, timeline's good, it's the voids that we're all interested in.

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Exactly, Tad. What we know with any certainty is limited. It's the voids that have to be filled in with theory. I'm glad to know that someone understands the value of using the timeline -- I'm not surprised you would.

Later, when I publish the Dr. Rorke version, you'll see how an event that is tied to another event (by length of time) changes everything else around it.