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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelSmith View Post
    Incredible. I don't know what to say.
    BBM - I think Otto makes a lot of sense, and I believe it's only incredible and leaves one speechless, if one is totally sold on the lone wolf theory.

    Recall that when the murder scene was originally discovered, Batistelli of the Postal Police immediately said that he felt the point of entry had been staged, introducing the idea of the "inside job".

    Adding to this , Napoleoni and Mignini felt the locked door and the duvet indicated the presence of a female, and that the idea of a staged burglary might point to the boys downstairs (remember that Rudy often brought them pot, and stayed for the party).

    Ergo, when Guede's presence was discovered and Lumumba let go, it wasn't as though the investigators skipped the idea of the lone wolf "to save face". They hadn't believed in a lone wolf in the first place.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    Thank you unsure why the link isn't working but those are accurate page numbers I just found them in my copy.

    No pmf translated Massei with a large group of people, I guess we can all decide who's translations to trust. I don't particularly like using translations by AK herself.
    I usually link the Massei Report translation through the West Seattle newspaper, as it appears neutral:

    http://www.westseattleherald.com/201...st-english-tra

    The translation was prepared by an international group of well educated people, many of whom are professional translators. They did the work without payment, and for the sole purpose of ensuring that the English speaking community knew what was going on in the trial without relying on media (which appeared to be influenced by a PR firm). The work was first translated, and then edited to ensure accuracy. No one connected with the trial has questioned the accuracy of the translation.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherlockh View Post
    Not true. Dr Lalli said emptying starts 'fairly quick'. Two to 3 hours was the total emptying time he was talking about.

    massei report
    No, he said time of death not more than 2-3 hours after meal.

    Massei report:
    Dr. Lalli specified that [110] death was considered as occurring not more than two to three hours after eating (page 47 of the hearing transcript, and the adjustment described in the footnote on February 13, 2008). He stated that the emptying of the stomach occurs between a minimum of two hours and a maximum of four hours after the meal is consumed (page 62, transcripts) and also confirmed that the duodenum was empty (page 63).
    bbm.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    Michael it isn't an excuse. Machine translations lose meaning when it mistranslates words, sometimes I can't even make out what is being said. I'm ok with witness testimony sometimes, but dealing with experts testimony and reports not so much. I'm sorry you think I'm using an excuse, I have always said I don't like relying on machine translations. Do you think Massei didn't accurately portray what Lalli said?

    I have never linked to a tabloid, as I know very well it lot of misinformation.
    I absolutely agree. Anyone that speaks more than one language, and who has used an electronic translation to check the accuracy, knows that the meaning is usually completely skewed. A simple, applicable example is the translation of the word "courtroom". We should all know by now that the electronic translation from Italian to English is "classroom". If that word is screwed up, I think it's fair to assume an awful lot of other words are equally screwed up. Crini is translated to "horsehair".

    An electronic translation of "Crini in the courtroom" is "horse hair in the classroom" ... and from there on, it's complete mumbo jumbo.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    Let me bring this over from the previous thread since it was ignored... We wouldn't want people saying Dr Lalli actually used the stomach contents for a TOD

    He did not narrow the time to 9pm though..

    http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/dow...le.php?id=1902

    "while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). He added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"


    "Dr. Lalli to place the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007."

    So really the digestive state did not force him to narrow the TOD. He did not even narrow it to a couple of hours.
    Dr Lalli had no information about the time of last meal. He just said the death occurred 2-3 hours max after it, considering full stomach and empty duodenum.

    Considering Dr. Lalli's opinion which is in agreement with the literature and also other points of evidence (time of last meal, time of Meredith's coming home, etc.) We can narrow the ToD much more precisely than Dr. Lalli could.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    BBM - I think Otto makes a lot of sense, and I believe it's only incredible and leaves one speechless, if one is totally sold on the lone wolf theory.

    Recall that when the murder scene was originally discovered, Batistelli of the Postal Police immediately said that he felt the point of entry had been staged, introducing the idea of the "inside job".

    Adding to this , Napoleoni and Mignini felt the locked door and the duvet indicated the presence of a female, and that the idea of a staged burglary might point to the boys downstairs (remember that Rudy often brought them pot, and stayed for the party).

    Ergo, when Guede's presence was discovered and Lumumba let go, it wasn't as though the investigators skipped the idea of the lone wolf "to save face". They hadn't believed in a lone wolf in the first place.
    That's true that the investigators married to their theory before they had any solid evidence. it's true they suspected Amanda from the very beginning.

    When the forensic results came, pointing to a person they never considered and more importantly, there were no forensic evidence at all of Amanda's presence in the room, it was time to reconsider the original theory.

    This didn't happen and we see such pattern in many miscarriages of justice. Case of David Camm has many eerie similarities. They targeted the wrong person, close to the victims, they ignored evidence pointing to someone else, when it was no way out because the real killer, Boney, had been found, they said he worked 'in concert' with Camm.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I absolutely agree. Anyone that speaks more than one language, and who has used an electronic translation to check the accuracy, knows that the meaning is usually completely skewed. A simple, applicable example is the translation of the word "courtroom". We should all know by now that the electronic translation from Italian to English is "classroom". If that word is screwed up, I think it's fair to assume an awful lot of other words are equally screwed up. Crini is translated to "horsehair".

    An electronic translation of "Crini in the courtroom" is "horse hair in the classroom" ... and from there on, it's complete mumbo jumbo.
    Back in November I read one of those Google auto-translates and I kept wondering, "If this "Horse Hair" is such a key prosecutor, how come I never heard of him??? and yes, they are always "in the classroom", and Amanda "did the wheel" in the interrogation office, etc.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa9511 View Post
    I believe even Amanda and RS could have come up with the idea of throwing a rock to break a window.
    (from end of last thread)

    I think it's very likely that Knox came up with the idea of throwing rocks to break the window, as she had prior history with rock throwing at the party she hosted in Seattle.

    <modsnip>

    http://www.tekjournalismuk.com/45/po...-burglary.html
    Last edited by Harmony 2; 01-13-2014 at 10:05 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katody View Post
    No, he said time of death not more than 2-3 hours after meal.

    Massei report:

    bbm.
    I understand the confusion because this is an error. First he says the stomach empties in 2-3 hours, but gastric emptying starts fairly quickly. Then he is supposed to have said that death occurred in 2-3 hours after eating. But the stomach was full so that makes no sense. Both can't be true. The first quote I gave was right. The stomach does start emptying fairly quickly.

    http://humanbiology.wzw.tum.de/filea...s/tutorial.pdf

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    (from end of last thread)

    I think it's very likely that Knox came up with the idea of throwing rocks to break the window, as she had prior history with rock throwing at the party she hosted in Seattle.

    "The startlingly frank admission by Knox should also be seen in conjunction with the ticket she received for hosting a riotous party at the University of Washington. The party got out of hand, and guests were reported to the police for throwing rocks at passers-by."

    http://www.tekjournalismuk.com/45/po...-burglary.html
    That is a huge stretch.


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    Let me bring this over from the previous thread since it was ignored... We wouldn't want people saying Dr Lalli actually used the stomach contents for a TOD

    He did not narrow the time to 9pm though..

    http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/dow...le.php?id=1902

    "while reaffirming that the emptying of the stomach generally occurs between two hours and a maximum of 4 hours after eating (page 62, hearing on April 3, 2009). He added, however, that the digestive process is influenced by many factors like the type of meal, cold, stress, physical conditions and so on, and that to his knowledge there were no reliable studies that could establish "by how much the digestive process can be changed by these factors"

    "Dr. Lalli to place the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007."

    So really the digestive state did not force him to narrow the TOD. He did not even narrow it to a couple of hours.
    Dr Lalli and Professor Introna also used a Gaussian curve that pointed to a TOD of 22:50 based on the average weight of someone of Meredith's height and build. For some reason they couldn't weigh the body so they had to estimate it. For an earlier TOD Meredith must have been several kilos overweight.

    Massei report
    This data, he observed, produced a curve, called a Gaussian curve, the middle of which indicated 22:50 pm as the most probable time of death, with a 95% tolerance level; the range had to be between 21 and a half to 30 and a half hours from the [time of] measurement: the time of death being thus circumscribed within a temporal region ranging from 18:20 pm on November 1, 2007 to 03:30 am on November 2, 2007 (page 16, Professor Introna’s report).
    With all these ranges I can understand that the Supreme Court pointed out that to establish the TOD the court should listen to the witnesses who heard the scream. For example the testimony of Ms Monacchia was precise that she went to bed at 10pm. So TOD must have been sometime later.

    SC report
    But Ms Monacchia was even more precise on the time, and said that she went to bed about 10.00 PM, when after being asleep she was awakened by the noise of animated discussion between a man and a woman going by, along the little street adjacent to her window, and shortly after she heard a woman’s loud, sharp scream, coming from below, that is from via della Pergola.
    Overall I think this court will stick with a TOD of around 11pm, give or take half an hour. JMO.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
    That is a huge stretch.
    I don't see it as any more of a huge stretch than to say:

    Guede used a rock to break a window.
    A window is broken with a rock.
    Therefore, Guede broke the window.

    Why not:

    Knox hosted parties with rock throwing.
    Someone threw a rock.
    Therefore, Knox threw the rock.

  13. #28
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    In the context of Knox's history of pranks, I remembered something from the Massei Report that kind of resonated all these years, and it relates to statements that Meredith may have been pushed, shoved, or independently moved into the blade of the knife. (The attached image also explains why she was not stabbed with the total length of the blade.)

    If this was one of Knox's pranks gone wrong (in line with the prank on the roommate on April Fools Day that went wrong); perhaps a Halloween Prank that went wrong, then it could have gone from a prank to a very serious situation very quickly if, in the course of trying to traumatize Meredith for kicks, she was accidentally pushed, shoved, or fell into the blade. This possibility of is documented in the Massei Report (page numbers included).








  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    In the context of Knox's history of pranks, I remembered something from the Massei Report that kind of resonated all these years, and it relates to statements that Meredith may have been pushed, shoved, or independently moved into the blade of the knife. (The attached image also explains why she was not stabbed with the total length of the blade.)

    If this was one of Knox's pranks gone wrong (in line with the prank on the roommate on April Fools Day that went wrong); perhaps a Halloween Prank that went wrong, then it could have gone from a prank to a very serious situation very quickly if, in the course of trying to traumatize Meredith for kicks, she was accidentally pushed, shoved, or fell into the blade. This possibility of is documented in the Massei Report (page numbers included).
    I don't think she 'fell' into the blade, but there are signs of strangulation. And what can you do when you can't breath? I believe in this struggle of Meredith to get some air, she was stabbed. It is speculation though. I don't think you can tell with certainty, but I would agree that the depth of the wound being half the length of the blade, and a single deadly stab wound does not really indicate any intention to kill Meredith. It remains impossible to say what went through the mind of the one causing that stab wound at that moment. All JMO.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherlockh View Post
    I don't think she 'fell' into the blade, but there are signs of strangulation. And what can you do when you can't breath? I believe in this struggle of Meredith to get some air, she was stabbed. It is speculation though. I don't think you can tell with certainty, but I would agree that the depth of the wound being half the length of the blade, and a single deadly stab wound does not really indicate any intention to kill Meredith. It remains impossible to say what went through the mind of the one causing that stab wound at that moment. All JMO.
    I was reading about the strangulation today. It sounds like someone put hands over her mouth and nose, making it almost impossible to breath, and she struggled. The prosecution theory seems to be that it's possible that during that struggle she was pushed, or she moved into, a knife. This is only possible if there is more than one perpetrator. We have only two hands, but to cover her mouth and nose, wield a knife and stab her, and restrain her hands (no defensive wounds) ... does anyone know the angle of how she was stabbed with the large knife? Is there an autopsy illustration?

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