993 users online (178 members and 815 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 5 of 76 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 15 55 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 1136
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    7,952
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    In the Massei Report, page 122 mentions injuries to the right elbow, and page 136 mentions injuries to the left elbow.

    http://www.westseattleherald.com/sit...ranslation.pdf
    Thank you for this, Otto-- so perhaps Hendry based his synopsis on these various notations?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    27,178
    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    Thank you for this, Otto-- so perhaps Hendry based his synopsis on these various notations?
    I would think so. If he states that there were injuries on both elbows, then his statement is consistent with the contents of the Massei Report.

    In case anyone doesn't know about this ... It's easy to search the report if you know what you are looking for. If the search function is not visible, type CONTROL F (on a PC). That brings up the search feature (tiny little dialogue box). Type the word you're looking for, make sure that it's highlighted, press enter to jump to the next instance of it in the document.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    In the Massei Report, page 122 mentions injuries to the right elbow, and page 136 mentions injuries to the left elbow.

    http://www.westseattleherald.com/sit...ranslation.pdf
    "[134] He then proceeded to describe the two bruised areas present on the left elbow of the victim, and with regard to these, he stated that these were not marks caused by restraining, but hypostatic stains. But since he could not absolutely exclude that they might be bruises stemming from an effort of the victim to defend herself, he noted that the fact that they were present only on the left forearm at the level of the elbow would mean that the forearm remained free, making it difficult to attribute the bruises to the fact of having been restrained."

    IMO, the bruises on her elbows which seem to be much lighter than the bruises on her chin and face, were caused by the shoulders of her hoodie jacket being pulled down over her arms to the elbow area. Please try it before laughing at me.

    I put on a jersey hoodie, zipped halfway up. With the shoulders pulled down around my elbows, I could only move my forearms, could almost reach my neck but not quite. I stopped before the jacket tore, but there was definitely pressure on my skin at the inside of the elbow area.

    If nothing else had happened, sure, she would have been able to wriggle free of the jacket, but it would have been an effective restraint while a hand was clamped over her face, her hair was being pulled back, etc. all those horrible things.

    If her arms had been restrained by someone else's hands, the bruises would have been deeper, more like the bruises on her face. IMO

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    In the Massei Report, page 122 mentions injuries to the right elbow, and page 136 mentions injuries to the left elbow.

    http://www.westseattleherald.com/sit...ranslation.pdf
    Left elbow is described as hypostatic stains, very unlikely to be bruises from struggle.

    He then proceeded to describe the two bruised areas present on the left elbow of the victim, and with regard to these, he stated that these were not marks caused by restraining, but hypostatic stains. But since he could not absolutely exclude that they might be bruises stemming from an effort of the victim to defend herself, he noted that the fact that they were present only on the left forearm at the level of the elbow would mean that the forearm remained free, making it difficult to attribute the bruises to the fact of having been restrained.
    Restraining bruises are much more likely to be located at wrists or forearms.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    7,952
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I would think so. If he states that there were injuries on both elbows, then his statement is consistent with the contents of the Massei Report.

    In case anyone doesn't know about this ... It's easy to search the report if you know what you are looking for. If the search function is not visible, type CONTROL F (on a PC). That brings up the search feature (tiny little dialogue box). Type the word you're looking for, make sure that it's highlighted, press enter to jump to the next instance of it in the document.
    Thanks for that - and also for this info, Otto!

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    7,952
    Quote Originally Posted by Katody View Post
    Left elbow is described as hypostatic stains, very unlikely to be bruises from struggle.



    Restraining bruises are much more likely to be located at wrists or forearms.
    There was bruising on one of her forearms.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    7,952
    Quote Originally Posted by quesarita View Post
    "[134] He then proceeded to describe the two bruised areas present on the left elbow of the victim, and with regard to these, he stated that these were not marks caused by restraining, but hypostatic stains. But since he could not absolutely exclude that they might be bruises stemming from an effort of the victim to defend herself, he noted that the fact that they were present only on the left forearm at the level of the elbow would mean that the forearm remained free, making it difficult to attribute the bruises to the fact of having been restrained."

    IMO, the bruises on her elbows which seem to be much lighter than the bruises on her chin and face, were caused by the shoulders of her hoodie jacket being pulled down over her arms to the elbow area. Please try it before laughing at me.

    I put on a jersey hoodie, zipped halfway up. With the shoulders pulled down around my elbows, I could only move my forearms, could almost reach my neck but not quite. I stopped before the jacket tore, but there was definitely pressure on my skin at the inside of the elbow area.

    If nothing else had happened, sure, she would have been able to wriggle free of the jacket, but it would have been an effective restraint while a hand was clamped over her face, her hair was being pulled back, etc. all those horrible things.

    If her arms had been restrained by someone else's hands, the bruises would have been deeper, more like the bruises on her face. IMO
    That's an interesting experiment. But if she still had her jacket on, perhaps the bruising would be lighter if she had been restrained at the elbows?

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    There was bruising on one of her forearms.
    Entirely possible Guede caused it.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    That's an interesting experiment. But if she still had her jacket on, perhaps the bruising would be lighter if she had been restrained at the elbows?
    I think someone's fingers would leave more distinct marks even through fabric. From the quotes, the witness doesn't want to commit to whether it's bruising or hypostatic stains.

    Struggling against fabric pulled tight would result in a more diffuse bruising, IMO.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    27,178
    Quote Originally Posted by quesarita View Post
    "[134] He then proceeded to describe the two bruised areas present on the left elbow of the victim, and with regard to these, he stated that these were not marks caused by restraining, but hypostatic stains. But since he could not absolutely exclude that they might be bruises stemming from an effort of the victim to defend herself, he noted that the fact that they were present only on the left forearm at the level of the elbow would mean that the forearm remained free, making it difficult to attribute the bruises to the fact of having been restrained."

    IMO, the bruises on her elbows which seem to be much lighter than the bruises on her chin and face, were caused by the shoulders of her hoodie jacket being pulled down over her arms to the elbow area. Please try it before laughing at me.

    I put on a jersey hoodie, zipped halfway up. With the shoulders pulled down around my elbows, I could only move my forearms, could almost reach my neck but not quite. I stopped before the jacket tore, but there was definitely pressure on my skin at the inside of the elbow area.

    If nothing else had happened, sure, she would have been able to wriggle free of the jacket, but it would have been an effective restraint while a hand was clamped over her face, her hair was being pulled back, etc. all those horrible things.

    If her arms had been restrained by someone else's hands, the bruises would have been deeper, more like the bruises on her face. IMO
    Bruises from being hit in the face and bruises from having an arms restrained should not appear to be the same. Could bruises from having a hand pushed into the mouth and nose appear the same as restraint bruising on arms?

    Meredith's mouth and nose were covered, which would naturally result in a struggle. There was strangling. She was stabbed with two knives from two different directions (left and right). There are almost no defensive wounds.

    Let's suppose that her arms were restrained by her clothing, her breathing was obstructed with one hand of an attacker, in the other hand is a large knife. Meredith is fighting back, trying to breath, and perhaps she was pushed, or she fell, into the knife, which only penetrates half way down the knife. Perhaps she stopped struggling at this point?

    Does the attacker then put down one knife, switch hands, pick up a smaller knife, carve small cuts and stab her again? Unless we throw out the medical report ... all of it ... not just the inconvenient part that two knives were used, why would one attacker use two different knifes and attack from two directions?


  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    27,178
    Quote Originally Posted by SMK View Post
    That's an interesting experiment. But if she still had her jacket on, perhaps the bruising would be lighter if she had been restrained at the elbows?
    I have read about some very unusual experiments done by sleuthers that are trying to figure out how physical injuries occurred, or clothing appeared a certain way.

    If the hoodie is half zipped and suppose the hood is pulled down to restrain the arms, what prevents anyone from simply stretching the fabric in whatever way is necessary to have arm movement? Wouldn't the zipper simply unzip more, or the fabric stretch and tear ... especially in a life or death situation?

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I have read about some very unusual experiments done by sleuthers that are trying to figure out how physical injuries occurred, or clothing appeared a certain way.
    This isn't that unusual. I see jackets being used as quick temporary restraint like that all the time in movies or on TV.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    Bruises from being hit in the face and bruises from having an arms restrained should not appear to be the same. Could bruises from having a hand pushed into the mouth and nose appear the same as restraint bruising on arms?

    Meredith's mouth and nose were covered, which would naturally result in a struggle. There was strangling. She was stabbed with two knives from two different directions (left and right). There are almost no defensive wounds.

    Let's suppose that her arms were restrained by her clothing, her breathing was obstructed with one hand of an attacker, in the other hand is a large knife. Meredith is fighting back, trying to breath, and perhaps she was pushed, or she fell, into the knife, which only penetrates half way down the knife. Perhaps she stopped struggling at this point?

    Does the attacker then put down one knife, switch hands, pick up a smaller knife, carve small cuts and stab her again? Unless we throw out the medical report ... all of it ... not just the inconvenient part that two knives were used, why would one attacker use two different knifes and attack from two directions?
    There is no clear evidence of strangulation. No bruising typical for strangulation.

    All the wounds are compatible with one thin knife 8cm long. Making stab wounds on left and right front side of the neck is entirely possible with just one attacker holding her from behind.

    There would be much struggle if we assume she was not incapacitated or subdued or submissive while the stabbing commenced. After the stabs it's possible that the shock and pain incapacitated her.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    4,386
    To add to the jacket discussion, the jacket was found with both of the arms inside out. That would suggest that someone was pulling on the jacket that was not Meredith.

    MOO

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by otto View Post
    I have read about some very unusual experiments done by sleuthers that are trying to figure out how physical injuries occurred, or clothing appeared a certain way.

    If the hoodie is half zipped and suppose the hood is pulled down to restrain the arms, what prevents anyone from simply stretching the fabric in whatever way is necessary to have arm movement? Wouldn't the zipper simply unzip more, or the fabric stretch and tear ... especially in a life or death situation?
    That is what I thought and why I tried it. My jacket is quite stretchy, but I couldn't move my upper arms at all which really limited how much I could move my forearms. As I said, if nothing else had been going on, the jacket in itself would not hold one forever; but temporarily during an attack, it would give a single attacker more freedom with their hands.

Page 5 of 76 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 15 55 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 943
    Last Post: 01-31-2014, 10:01 AM
  2. Replies: 1026
    Last Post: 01-12-2014, 08:07 AM
  3. Replies: 1064
    Last Post: 01-05-2014, 12:29 AM
  4. Replies: 1013
    Last Post: 12-19-2013, 05:30 AM
  5. Replies: 1011
    Last Post: 11-12-2013, 12:34 AM

Tags for this Thread