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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Did JR tell us "The Plan"?

    I'm starting a new thread in part to answer a post on another. 99% of my answer was off topic, but one thought led to another, and another. Also I couldn't find another thread that went in the rambling direction I'm going. LOL That light bulb went on in my head and I wondered if we've been looking at some things from the wrong angle, and that's why they haven't made sense? I'm not saying I have the answer all figured out, but this is the first time I've been able to make sense of these things.

    Anti-K asked: BBM & RSBM

    The Ramsey case is somewhat unique, regardless of RDI or IDI.
    If john thought he could leave in the morning and board their plane and dispose of the body at that time, than why would the body be in the basement. Why not in the garage or in the trunk of the car, ready to go?
    I'm not saying that they had plans to dispose of her after calling 911, but I do think it's a possibility. So I'm LE and I get this "kidnapping" call. Naturally, I'd read the note, and bells and whistles would start going off. I'd search the house next, including the garage & cars. (The Rs knew this would happen. They had to have known.) Now if LE were to find JBR, which they should have, what is going to make the Rs look even more guilty? Finding her in the basement, not too far from a broken, open window with a suitcase nearby? Or finding her in the trunk of one of her parents' car?!?! No brainer there, sorry.

    If they intended for LE to find her, why have her hidden so well? Why not put her right under that broken, open window, right next to that suitcase? That might have been a little more believable from an IDI perspective. "IDI is ready to stuff her in the suitcase & out the window they go, but he hears something and has to leave without her."

    If PR blew the plan at the last second I could still see JR playing it out the same way as in the following scenario:

    If they thought they could sneak her out of the house after calling 911, it would be pretty easy for JR (or so he possibly thought) to slide in that window (just like he described doing before), put her in JAR's suitcase, pop the suitcase out the window, then use "that" chair that he insisted was blocking the door to climb back out himself. Maybe he would have put her outside the window before leaving the house. I suppose there's even the possibility that he did try during his "unexplained absence." Her brand new shirt fibers were found on the duvet cover in the suitcase. Rigor and livor would both be set by then, so no evidence would indicate one way or the other. Maybe he picked her up, laid her in the open suitcase, and then realized even if he broke rigor (if he even knew he could) she still wouldn't fit in well. Could the book and blanket have been "undoing" items put in there for "her comfort"?

    And again, I'm not saying that this was ever the plan, but I could easily see it having been just that. When you add up all the things JR kept harping on, which everyone presumes is his attempt to point to an intruder, they all fit nicely into this plan. The broken window & how he used it to get in, the chair blocking the door, him moving JAR's suitcase downstairs. Maybe he was letting some of his own plan slip out in little bits and pieces, and not trying to point to an IDI (or "insider") at all.

    Lies usually have a grain of truth in them, and anyone that's read the Rs books knows, he gives away a lot of information about himself without even realizing it. But maybe that's JMO.

    His window "story" was just down right strange. I never did understand the purpose of that "chair story", and it never made a bit of sense to me. He openly said he was the one to put the suitcase down there. (He knew he had to admit that because his prints would be on it. And yeah, I know, "But he lived there. They should be.") And why was he always in his underwear??? Climbing through the window in his underwear, reading the RN, on the floor of all places, in his underwear!

    So did he really tell us what his plan was all along through his bizarre stories and "admissions"?

    If you've made it this far, thank you for your patience with my rambling, wandering thoughts.
    **MY POSTS ARE NOT TO BE COPIED OR LINKED TO IN ANY OTHER FORUMS OR WEBSITES!!**

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nom de plume View Post
    I'm starting a new thread in part to answer a post on another. 99% of my answer was off topic, but one thought led to another, and another. Also I couldn't find another thread that went in the rambling direction I'm going. LOL That light bulb went on in my head and I wondered if we've been looking at some things from the wrong angle, and that's why they haven't made sense? I'm not saying I have the answer all figured out, but this is the first time I've been able to make sense of these things.

    Anti-K asked: BBM & RSBM

    I'm not saying that they had plans to dispose of her after calling 911, but I do think it's a possibility. So I'm LE and I get this "kidnapping" call. Naturally, I'd read the note, and bells and whistles would start going off. I'd search the house next, including the garage & cars. (The Rs knew this would happen. They had to have known.) Now if LE were to find JBR, which they should have, what is going to make the Rs look even more guilty? Finding her in the basement, not too far from a broken, open window with a suitcase nearby? Or finding her in the trunk of one of her parents' car?!?! No brainer there, sorry.

    If they intended for LE to find her, why have her hidden so well? Why not put her right under that broken, open window, right next to that suitcase? That might have been a little more believable from an IDI perspective. "IDI is ready to stuff her in the suitcase & out the window they go, but he hears something and has to leave without her."

    If PR blew the plan at the last second I could still see JR playing it out the same way as in the following scenario:

    If they thought they could sneak her out of the house after calling 911, it would be pretty easy for JR (or so he possibly thought) to slide in that window (just like he described doing before), put her in JAR's suitcase, pop the suitcase out the window, then use "that" chair that he insisted was blocking the door to climb back out himself. Maybe he would have put her outside the window before leaving the house. I suppose there's even the possibility that he did try during his "unexplained absence." Her brand new shirt fibers were found on the duvet cover in the suitcase. Rigor and livor would both be set by then, so no evidence would indicate one way or the other. Maybe he picked her up, laid her in the open suitcase, and then realized even if he broke rigor (if he even knew he could) she still wouldn't fit in well. Could the book and blanket have been "undoing" items put in there for "her comfort"?

    And again, I'm not saying that this was ever the plan, but I could easily see it having been just that. When you add up all the things JR kept harping on, which everyone presumes is his attempt to point to an intruder, they all fit nicely into this plan. The broken window & how he used it to get in, the chair blocking the door, him moving JAR's suitcase downstairs. Maybe he was letting some of his own plan slip out in little bits and pieces, and not trying to point to an IDI (or "insider") at all.

    Lies usually have a grain of truth in them, and anyone that's read the Rs books knows, he gives away a lot of information about himself without even realizing it. But maybe that's JMO.

    His window "story" was just down right strange. I never did understand the purpose of that "chair story", and it never made a bit of sense to me. He openly said he was the one to put the suitcase down there. (He knew he had to admit that because his prints would be on it. And yeah, I know, "But he lived there. They should be.") And why was he always in his underwear??? Climbing through the window in his underwear, reading the RN, on the floor of all places, in his underwear!

    So did he really tell us what his plan was all along through his bizarre stories and "admissions"?

    If you've made it this far, thank you for your patience with my rambling, wandering thoughts.
    Oh, no, donít ask me to walk through the JR- in- his-underwear scenes again! Seriously, I felt like Iíd fallen down the rabbit hole trying to understand the whole saga of the window in the train room and the chair up against the train room door.

    Whatever plan JR may have had to dispose of the body, and I think there was thought given to their plight of whether to conceal her or take her body somewhere, I believe they landed on concealing her. Iím sure it doesnít make sense to a lot of people, but I think they may have considered taking JB out somewhere and discarded the idea, for whatever reasons we can think of: the neighbors may spot their car leaving in the middle of the night, etc.

    After coming up with the RN and the other staging, itís a given they knew they had no choice but to next contact police. The specific instructions in the RN were Not to contact police or anyone else, and they ignored the RN warnings. This gave a reason for JBís death. The only story line I could find here was a last option, that they could ďdiscoverĒ JB after the police had left and their ignoring of the RN instructions would have given a solid reason for JBís death. In the movies the police come, check out the home, put electronic traps on the phones and then leave after the time frame for a kidnapper phone call has ended. BPD didnít leave, and ya know the rest of the story. JMHO

  3. #3
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    pls excuse me for fooling around but I can't help it after following this case....
    I think I found a match for JR

    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n...lazarus/4.html
    Ramsey case: "Instead of being the DNA of one person, they have instead created a composite of someone who does not exist. "

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by questfortrue View Post
    Oh, no, donít ask me to walk through the JR- in- his-underwear scenes again! Seriously, I felt like Iíd fallen down the rabbit hole trying to understand the whole saga of the window in the train room and the chair up against the train room door.

    Whatever plan JR may have had to dispose of the body, and I think there was thought given to their plight of whether to conceal her or take her body somewhere, I believe they landed on concealing her. Iím sure it doesnít make sense to a lot of people, but I think they may have considered taking JB out somewhere and discarded the idea, for whatever reasons we can think of: the neighbors may spot their car leaving in the middle of the night, etc.

    After coming up with the RN and the other staging, itís a given they knew they had no choice but to next contact police. The specific instructions in the RN were Not to contact police or anyone else, and they ignored the RN warnings. This gave a reason for JBís death. The only story line I could find here was a last option, that they could ďdiscoverĒ JB after the police had left and their ignoring of the RN instructions would have given a solid reason for JBís death. In the movies the police come, check out the home, put electronic traps on the phones and then leave after the time frame for a kidnapper phone call has ended. BPD didnít leave, and ya know the rest of the story. JMHO
    That's not a bad theory at all! So if I'm following you correctly, you think they might have been waiting for LE to leave, then call them back saying they've found her, like she was returned to the house dead, because they ignored the RN warnings. Hmm. As good as any other I can think of.

    It always seemed strange that PR did exactly the opposite of what the RN told them to do. Like she was daring the "SFF". And just more proof that she knew the RN was bogus too. If you really thought your daughter was kidnapped, wouldn't you follow the instructions in the RN to the letter? (With the possible exception of calling LE, but even then why didn't she tell them about the warnings in the RN?? Dead give away, no pun intended.)
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  5. #5
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    Nomdeplume I don't know if your theory is correct but it is as good as any.

    Somehow those shirt fibers were on that duvet.
    Has there ever been any reason given for those fibers being there?

    I have never read one but I have not read everything, that is for sure.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nom de plume View Post
    It always seemed strange that PR did exactly the opposite of what the RN told them to do. Like she was daring the "SFF". And just more proof that she knew the RN was bogus too. If you really thought your daughter was kidnapped, wouldn't you follow the instructions in the RN to the letter? (With the possible exception of calling LE, but even then why didn't she tell them about the warnings in the RN?? Dead give away, no pun intended.)
    Yes, I have always considered their complete disregard for the so called "warnings" in the letter to be one more strong piece of circumstancial evidence.

    I think most people would probably end up calling the police. However, yes, I do think one of the first things you would say is that the RN has warned against it. I also cannot imagine any person who turly thought their child had been abducted and had been warned about telling anyone, "even a stray dog" would then proceed to contact half of Boulder and invite them over.
    I mean, honestly, even without the warning, who would think to call their friends at that time? Wouldn't your entire focus be on "where is by child, what to we do now"?

    As for the theory the thread is based on, it is plausible, but I still lean back to the one I always end up leadihg back to. If PDI, she would want the body hidden whle she staged the rest of it, or perhaps at first it was just while she was trying to figure out what to do next. So she took the body to the basement.

    I still think if John had been part of the original staging, it would have been done much better.

    Really, why did they need a ransom note? If you want the police to believe it was a sex crime, why not just put her in her bed, or on the floor of the LR, or any other obvious place. A sexual predator isn't going to take her to the basement to assault her. He would either do it in her room or take her from the house competely and then do it. A Sexual predator wouldn't leave a ransom note because he isn't there for a ransom.

    It is all so convoluted, to me it just has Drama Queen Patsy written all over it.

  7. #7
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    Scandigirl

    Hi there! Hope no one minds me joining this thread- I'm very nervous, as it's my first ever post! I've been reading everyone's posts with great interest, for quite a while, and finally plucked up the courage to join in. Deep breath, here goes... Sorry if this is a bit long, but just wanted to add my jumbled thoughts...

    I agree that JR's plan could very likely to have been to still try to remove JBR's body from the house, after the 911 call was made. I go back and forth on which of the 3 Ramsey's actually killed her- I'm open minded about Burke's involvement, but definitely think that both JR and PR were involved at the very least in the cover up, although not sure that they were both operating from the same understanding of it as each other.

    I've read DocG's JDI theory, and not convinced on all the details, and have also found Kir Komrik's theory, which to me is the most compelling, although again I'm not convinced by all of it. Has anyone else come across Kir Komrik? If not, I'd recommend googling him- his writings about JonBenet's murder are long winded and quite heavy going, but very interesting.

    Based on his ideas, I think that the Ramsey's couldn't have left making the 911 call much later than they did, as they knew they were due to catch a flight soon to meet their family. They knew that questions would soon be asked about JBR's whereabouts, and why she wasn't with them.

    To me, both JR and PR always came across as defiant, arrogant and smug... I think that they looked down on the police, and certainly JR thought that he was clever enough to outwit them. I think he thought that he could smuggle JBR's body out of the house and into his private plane after the police were called, right under their very noses!

    I think that is what the phrase in the ransom note refers to, that the journey would be long and exhausting ( as plane journeys usually are), and so he would be advised to be well rested. This could have been JR and PR's little inside joke at the police's expense, between themselves!

    I think that JBR's body could have initially been stores either in a small aircraft container, hidden inside a cupboard within the house, or inside a suitcase- either of which they planned to take with them in the plane, without either the police or their pilot realising. Again, this could relate to the mention in the ransom note, referring to if JR got the money early... In other words, their pilot was initially on standby, ready to whisk them away as early as they could manage, once the police were called.

    I think that JR was banking on the ransom note buying them more time and freedom early on. He thought that police procedures would be followed, working from the assumption of a kidnapping, and not a murder. I think that he was "cordial" and relaxed when he first greeted the police, because he mistakenly miscalculated what their procedures would be. But, things didn't go according to his plan, in several ways:

    a) He soon realised that once the police arrived, they were not going to leave them alone, even for a short time. They weren't going to go away and come back later- the police were maintaining a constant presence in the house, even when only Linda Arndt was left. She was still armed and watching over everyone.

    b) JR realised he had been gravely mistaken in thinking that he and his remaining family would still be allowed to catch their plane and make their journey. The police told him that there was no way that was happening!

    c) JR had been relying on the police only making a general sweep of searching the house (as they believed they were dealing with a kidnapping), and that even if they decided to apply for a full search warrant, JR probably thought that this would take them a couple of days. Instead, he was informed by Linda Arndt, that the police would be returning that same evening with a full search warrant, including sniffer dogs, etc. Linda Arndt remembered that it was around that time that JR became visibly more nervous and agitated, and he disappeared for a while.

    I may be completely wrong, but I wonder if it was during this time period that JR decided that JonBenet would now have to be "found" and that it was then that he managed to wipe her body down, realising that he had to try to remove all physical evidence of who had assaulted her?

    Whew! Sorry for such a marathon first post- it feels good to get all that off my chest! It's all just only my own opinion, of course. Please be gentle, and feel free to disagree or contradict if any of the facts are wrong!

  8. #8
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    If you believe in Statement Analysis (I do, but sometimes have a problem with the interpretators) it IS awfully odd that JR needs to supply those underwear graphics so often. Why is his dang underwear even on his mind so much?? Jeez!

    Welcome to the forum, Scandigirl Thats a great first post. Ive pretty much dismissed Doc G because he refuses to even consider BR as capable, but your other reference is totally new to me. Thank you sooo much!! It's always a happy day to discover new sourcework and reading

  9. #9
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    Congratulations, Scandigirl, on working up the courage to post. It must be intimidating to post for the first time, but we're a pretty cordial group. You make some good points. Like you and many others here, I think the police hanging around for so long put a kink in whatever the plan might have been. Who knows what that plan might have been. Could it be that her body was hidden well enough initially that no one would find her (yes)? And maybe the plan was for them to wait for no call from the "kidnappers", police pack up and leave, no one around, move the body to the closed garage, place it in the trunk, then drive to the airport. I don't think they ever thought about throwing her body from the plane (as some have speculated); but it's a long enough drive out of town to the airport to allow for a short detour on a side road that isn't traveled much. Then when the body would be discovered, they'd already be out of town. What would investigators make of that situation? Would the coroner still be able to estimate that she had died around midnight (presumably while being held by the kidnappers), but the Ramseys had already left when the body was discovered? What would they have concluded from that scenario?

    Anyway... Welcome to WS, Scandi.

    All views expressed in my posts are my opinion and are protected under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as ďfreedom of speech.Ē

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scandigirl View Post
    I've read DocG's JDI theory, and not convinced on all the details, and have also found Kir Komrik's theory, which to me is the most compelling, although again I'm not convinced by all of it. Has anyone else come across Kir Komrik? If not, I'd recommend googling him- his writings about JonBenet's murder are long winded and quite heavy going, but very interesting.
    In my searching on this case I had never come across Kir Komrik. I just downloaded his 172 page WORD document on the case and have browsed the first parts. I will be interested to see the views and thoughts of those that are so well versed in the case on his thoughts. Thanks for sharing this. Great first post.


    Posted comments are my personal opinion only and have been derived as a result of reviewing information publicly available to all.
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  11. #11
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    Scandigirl/ZBob - can you share the link for KK's theory? thanks!
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    The way I see it is: if you are making a decision that will affect someone else's life, prepare for public scrutiny.
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  12. #12
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    Link to Kir Komrik

    Hi everyone,

    Here's the link to the Kir Komrik file that I stumbled across!

    http://kirkomrik.files.wordpress.com...omrikv1-0.docx

  13. #13
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    Hi everyone, thanks for your positive and encouraging responses! I stumbled upon Kir Komrik's files by accident, but found his ideas to be both chilling and compelling, and a new angle on things. It takes a lot of patience (and in my case looking up certain words and phrases), as it's very long and heavy on legal and academic jargon, but he does seem to be practical and very thorough. I'm very interested to know what others think of various aspects of his theory, especially with regard to his descriptions of how the actual physical attack on poor JonBenet may have taken place.

    I agree that DocG's theory is a bit too rigid for me. I can see a scenario where JR is the molester and actual killer, but I can't be so sure that Burke might not be involved or responsible. I also feel sure that Patsy wasn't an innocent victim. I believe that, even if she was "only" covering for either JR or Burke, she definitely staged the 911 call, and probably wrote the ransom note, although possibly I think that could also have been John.

    I agree that statement analysis is very important and revealing, even when suspects are deliberately trying to be deceptive, as their subconscious choice of words and phrasing often give them away.

    I also think that, in the scenario for getting the body out of the house that I suggested earlier, it isn't clear exactly what JR and PR would have done with JBR's body. I suppose they could have been planning to take it onto the plane and actually on the journey with them, hidden in possibly a small aircraft carrier, or a suitcase, and then disposed of it somewhere at the other end. That way, a coroner wouldn't have been able to examine the body, as it wouldn't have been found. I also don't know what investigators would have made of this. So many unanswered questions!

    I do agree that they probably wouldn't have tossed her out of the plane, but possibly smuggled her off the plane with them at the other end.

    Sorry for another long and rambling post- hope some of it makes some sense. Only my own thoughts, of course!

  14. #14
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    Welcome Scandigirl! Great posts! Thanks so much for the link to KK's theory. I'm excited to read it. (I'll read anything, by anybody that doesn't suggest IDI! LOL)
    **MY POSTS ARE NOT TO BE COPIED OR LINKED TO IN ANY OTHER FORUMS OR WEBSITES!!**

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nom de plume View Post
    I'm starting a new thread in part to answer a post on another. 99% of my answer was off topic, but one thought led to another, and another. Also I couldn't find another thread that went in the rambling direction I'm going. LOL That light bulb went on in my head and I wondered if we've been looking at some things from the wrong angle, and that's why they haven't made sense? I'm not saying I have the answer all figured out, but this is the first time I've been able to make sense of these things.

    Anti-K asked: BBM & RSBM



    I'm not saying that they had plans to dispose of her after calling 911, but I do think it's a possibility. So I'm LE and I get this "kidnapping" call. Naturally, I'd read the note, and bells and whistles would start going off. I'd search the house next, including the garage & cars. (The Rs knew this would happen. They had to have known.) Now if LE were to find JBR, which they should have, what is going to make the Rs look even more guilty? Finding her in the basement, not too far from a broken, open window with a suitcase nearby? Or finding her in the trunk of one of her parents' car?!?! No brainer there, sorry.

    If they intended for LE to find her, why have her hidden so well? Why not put her right under that broken, open window, right next to that suitcase? That might have been a little more believable from an IDI perspective. "IDI is ready to stuff her in the suitcase & out the window they go, but he hears something and has to leave without her."

    If PR blew the plan at the last second I could still see JR playing it out the same way as in the following scenario:

    If they thought they could sneak her out of the house after calling 911, it would be pretty easy for JR (or so he possibly thought) to slide in that window (just like he described doing before), put her in JAR's suitcase, pop the suitcase out the window, then use "that" chair that he insisted was blocking the door to climb back out himself. Maybe he would have put her outside the window before leaving the house. I suppose there's even the possibility that he did try during his "unexplained absence." Her brand new shirt fibers were found on the duvet cover in the suitcase. Rigor and livor would both be set by then, so no evidence would indicate one way or the other. Maybe he picked her up, laid her in the open suitcase, and then realized even if he broke rigor (if he even knew he could) she still wouldn't fit in well. Could the book and blanket have been "undoing" items put in there for "her comfort"?

    And again, I'm not saying that this was ever the plan, but I could easily see it having been just that. When you add up all the things JR kept harping on, which everyone presumes is his attempt to point to an intruder, they all fit nicely into this plan. The broken window & how he used it to get in, the chair blocking the door, him moving JAR's suitcase downstairs. Maybe he was letting some of his own plan slip out in little bits and pieces, and not trying to point to an IDI (or "insider") at all.

    Lies usually have a grain of truth in them, and anyone that's read the Rs books knows, he gives away a lot of information about himself without even realizing it. But maybe that's JMO.

    His window "story" was just down right strange. I never did understand the purpose of that "chair story", and it never made a bit of sense to me. He openly said he was the one to put the suitcase down there. (He knew he had to admit that because his prints would be on it. And yeah, I know, "But he lived there. They should be.") And why was he always in his underwear??? Climbing through the window in his underwear, reading the RN, on the floor of all places, in his underwear!

    So did he really tell us what his plan was all along through his bizarre stories and "admissions"?

    If you've made it this far, thank you for your patience with my rambling, wandering thoughts.
    But, we know that BPD did not check ďthe garage & cars.Ē And, I see no reason why, if RDI, the Ramseys would think that they would. Certainly, if anything, they could expect BPD to search the house and to search it first. And, this is the reason why everyone who ever reported their child victim kidnapped (or missing) did so AFTER the victimís body was disposed of.

    Some people are fond of citing KISS and occamís razor and such; well, here it is: the Ramseys reporting a kidnapping while the body was still in the house because they didnít know that the body was still in the house.

    If RDI, and if the original plan was to dispose of the body, then there is no reason to store the body anywhere but in the trunk of the car because no matter what, at some point, when they go to dispose of it, it needs to be in the car.
    ...

    AK

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